MoodDude

All - I was looking at what my schedule would be like next year, and I just noticed that it looks like NASA doesn't have a Barber date anymore!

Here is what I am thinking:

March - RA w/ NASA
April - Sebring w/ Chin
May - Roebling w/ NASA
June - Sebring w/ Chin
July - VIR w/ Chin
August - RA w/ NASA
Sept - Barber w/ Chin
November - VIR w/ Chin
December - Sebring w/ Chin

Wouldn't mind working in some other Barber and RA events in there since those are close to me!

996TTcab

Yeah, I would love to see the pictures. I was hitting the first chicane nicely until the Z06s wrecked and my very next session I got lose there passing that red and black 951 race car and almost did the same thing that I believe the Z06 did.

Here is my staying tight to pass at about 110 or so when a bit of oversteer is induced. I think the Z06 did this as opposed to dropping two hweels off into the grass on the left.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqMX5WGh90w

Any know what happened to the Z06 for sure. Here is a video of me coming up on the aftermath. You can see his wheel and tire on the left side of the road about a 1000 feet from his car.

Made me feel sick to my stomach to see this poor guy like this . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnxzwrBfVbY

MoodDude

An instructor let a student drive his Z06. And now the instructor has a wrecked Z06.

996TTcab

Are you sure that was the instructor's car? Man, not smart and should not be allowed.

L8APEX

I was over on the hill next to the kink and the track out point when the Z06 crashed. I saw the whole thing, and have pictures while the cones are still bouncing into the road.

What happened was, he made it through the kink with no drama, but i think he got too hard on the throttle too early and put in too much steering to bring it back to track center, and the drivers side of the car started to come around, pointing him at the infield wall. His correction was delayed, and a little slow, and by the time he started to catch it, the passenger side wheels were in the grass, and he hit the corner of the armco and the tires right behind the passenger side front wheel. The sound was not one I can get out of my head. The car then bounced off the armco, putting all four wheels in the air, and then it landed, and banged the drivers side rear corner into the tires, which pushed it back toward the track, pointing at the wall. The landing was what broke the passenger side wheel off. It scared the hell out of me, and I was not in the car. I was fearful that the passenger, who we now know was the instructor and owner of the car, would be injured, since at first I could not tell how badly damaged the car was. He later slowly climbed out of the car. It in my mind as I remember it, happened in slow motion, I saw him start to slide, and remember thinking, he better catch it or this is going to get ugly. It was a pretty bad impact, and really reminded me how dangerous this tracking thing is. I can not decide whether or not to post pictures of it, for the owners sake.

That is the second Corvette that I have watched hit walls, and here is what I know about them. They leave the ground rather easily, and they seem to hold up well to the impact, since the occupants of both of them walked away with no major injury.

It was scary, and I am glad the driver and passenger walked away. And it looked like the only damage to the track they did was to the grass, the armco won, and I think the tires being there really helped too, I think they took the brunt of the impact. SO hopefully BMP does not add insult to injury, and send him a big bill.

L8APEX

so the driver of the Z06 was also the owner? I sure hope that ends up being th case. I can't imagine the feeling both of the occupants went through.

and TA, I agree 100% with what you got on your soap box about. If I trusted my car to my instructor, and he proceeded to drift around and slide it all over the place on his outlap, I think I would be mighty pissed, and quite possibly be asking for a new instructor. That is just the way I look at it.

996TTcab

What car did the student driver who wrecked the Z06 own or drive in our class.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

the only time I have ever let an instructor drive my car was at Roebling. Yall know him---the driver of the organge crush rx7. So he was familar with Rotaries and I knew he had been driving fr a while. BUT--told him up front that the DSC would be on and to not take her past 8.5 K. I dont care want people say about the dsc thing. on my car the only time the dsc comes on is when i have pushed it too way far. if you are smooth then you can drive it as fast as you want. remember we are not racing. Turn it off if you want to play and go to 10/10(i have at Roebling)
Why didt they throw a red flag or yellow flagout when that type of event occurs? Differant rules?
glad everybody is ok.
olddragger

996TTcab

I believe I saw a red flag come out with black and yellow and red right as we passed the Z06. What bothered me is that there were no flags out immediately prior to that chicane and there are two flag stations very close. One in front of the museuam and one right before that series of turns. They should have gone full course red, black, yellow or something. I could not see the wreck until after the chicane where I am usually hitting about 110.

996TTcab

So it sounds like throtle oversteer which I can see happening for someone who is not used to the power that car has if this was a wreck at the hands of a student. That is really a neophyte type of mistake which also reflect lack of familarity with the car and the rear wheel power.

I would like to see photos if they help show what happened. At first we thought he had dropped two wheels off on the left, panicked and over corrected. Then I saw the marks start toward the center of the track and assumed he was passing someone, could not drive out, turned in under throttle and got lose.

I felt my left rear pressure getting to high here about 20 or so minutes into each session. I was curious what happened to him because not knowing made me back off a bit through this section . . .

L8APEX

as TA mentioned, the discussion over on Corner Carvers informs that the owner was the driver. Word in the pit from another instructor was that it was the student in the instructors car. So I don't know who was driving whose car.

As for flags, the flag stand just before the kink was standing yellow, and the station after the kink on drivers left was standing yellow. There should have been a red flag, no doubt about that, there was debris, and people and car parts all over that part of the track, there should never have been cars passing through, which they were, even while roll back was hitching up to the car.

My pictures are just from the aftermath, nothing as it happened, since I was not really there shooting everyone, but mainly my four friends, and the other few cars that I was drawn to. They show nothing more than what everyone saw live on the track.

SilverEIGHT

Great images L8. We are very lucky to have had you at the event. Thanks!

SilverEIGHT

Yep, I had the suspension set tighter than I started with and wound up backing it down on the last session. The car definately handled differently and was less forgiving. I have it set now for 8 clicks front and 4 clicks rear and will leave it there till I track again and will probably try it starting there next event.

Don't think it is your imagination. He does have a different set up than mine. L8 has the same.

OD, it is a very technical track and I was scared to death of it to start with. It was the first time for throttle steering for me and those long sweeping turns were pefect to learn in. The hardest part for me was getting used to a declerating turn. I think you would love this track and I hope you drive it sometime next year.

SilverEIGHT

TA, as always, you are a wise man and I have a tremendous appreciation for your input. I have to admit that the ride in my car was VERY scary as I think I was more concerned about what was going to happen next than learning the line of the track. I have no problem with a instructor driving my car and showing me the line but it should be a controled situation. There is truly too much at stake for both driver and student, especially the student and his car. I will reconsider that option next time I'm confronted.

MoodDude

Yea - and your car won't handle very well until you get it corner weighted. I bet $100 that your driver side front tire has most of the weight on it, which will increase your chances for a spin.
As far as your dampening settings - they will not applicable until you get it corner weighted. Also the Tein doesn't change much with every single setting 0-16, I would say that it is more like 0-6!
I need to say this again - if you don't have your car corner weighted after adding coilovers - your handling will actually be worse than stock! There is a great write up in GRM and they state that over and over and over and over...

SilverEIGHT

Thanks M... I am paying attention. I have a question though. What do you do if you have it corner weighted with you as a driver, then you have a 210lb instructor? I know you said at the track it would not have much of an effect on the corner weighting. But if not I'm a bit puzzled as to what the effect the corner weighting will do. Not arguing the point, I just don't understand it. I will read some more and see if I can grasp it.

MoodDude

The single most important part of corner weights is your cross weights. That is the RF+LR=LF+RR! In a properly designed car, the driver and passanger would not affect these cross weights. Read this article as it will explain everything:
http://www.grmotorsports.com/news/01...er-weights.php

TorqueAholic

Well folks, the results are in : wide into 14A seems faster after all

What's ironic is that with the "Marcus" all over the track, he's the one that does the best job supporting my argument: check out the video and see for yourselves:

14A At Barber the FAST way

Just like on Silver's video, that guy does a fantastic job of showing what NOT to do.

Simple physics my friends, lap times talk bullsh$t walks.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

stock corner weights are excellant for the 8, i have non adjustable(konis/teins and RB's) and yea my right front/cross was heavier with 1/2 tank of gas--heavier by 15lbs. pretty good for a non adjustable set up. Hell the corner weight will vary that much during the day! depends on how much windshield wiper fluid i use!
OD
olddragger

MoodDude

That is why they tell you to set all your fluids to what you run on track when you do your corner weights.

I don't mean to be a pest, but if you are going to modify your car you have to do it right or you most likely will affect the car negatively. That is why I said if you do a modification, be ready to do 20 other things to make it work, or just leave it stock!

TorqueAholic

Depends on what you modify and how, if you modify lighthly like Silver it's fine as is. Sure, corner weighing will help some, I asked that question to Balanced Performance they said: expect some improvements, like a few 10's of a second.

I modified my suspension as a system using proven and well developed components front to back and I am done. I works precisely as intended, not one more thing needs to be changed. I too can adjust corner weights and I might do that for laughs just to see how much difference it makes.

As it stands, my height adjustments were left at default and the car is extremely well sorted and balanced, Acid Test: At Rockingham in the rain I was lapping everybody on my $60.00 street Khumo's: Lap times talk.

If on the other hand you're re-developing the car like you, then that's what you're doing: re-developing the car.

If you add 25-40hp to a car, it will simply be a bit quicker, if you add 150-200 hp, then all of the sudden you need brakes, suspension, cooling, a new Johnson Rod, a Flux Capacitor, etc. It all depends how close you stay from the original design parameters.

MoodDude

TA2 - I still disagree, but don't take my word for it, read GRM article on coilovers. They talk about the same thing, if you don't corner weight your car - expect the handling to be worse than the stock suspension.

Also, most people think that bolt on a component and you are done. This is not true and asking for trouble. Before you do any modification, learn what it will do and what you will need to do to make it work and not damage the car.
Just like TA said, if you run slicks on your car and don't upgrade your bushings - expect them not to last for very long.

L8APEX

as someone who tracked their 8 on stock suspension, and again after adding coilovers, I can assure you, the handling did not get worse, becuase I did not corner weight the car. I need to find my weight slip from RR and look back at what it told me about my corner weights. But, I am not as aggresive as the rest of you, so I may not know anything.

SilverEIGHT

This is an interesting thread with the conversation going in several directions.

MD, thanks for the link. I read the article and I have to come to the conclusion that there are 3 answers to this topic:

1. Install the proper suspension and corner weight properly. This is a very technical approach to making sure your car is race prepped and you get the absolute best balance you can possibly get with your car. This lowers the center of gravity, flattens the car out and balances the car for the ultimate competition and driving experience.

2. Leave your car alone with stock suspension as it is good enough from the factory and will be adequate on road courses.

3. Add suspension to lower the car (cosmetic), flatten the ride (feels better) and simply enjoy a stiffer more aggressive feel.

I think I fall into the #3 category and you in the #1. I will never get into the technical aspects of racing as you have with my RX-8. I love your car and wish I could devote the attention to tracking as you have but in reality, it ain't gonna happen. I'm more of what you would refer to in golfing as a "Sunday Golfer". The suspension for me is more of a feel good thing and I will drive my car within it's limits. If I have a dangerous situation with my set-up then I will get that taken care of but I really don't want to turn my car into a technical event every time I drive on the track or prepping it before I go. Changing the tires and making alignment changes is about the extent of what I care to do and with that said, I could have left it alone and as you say, "better with stock" but I just like the look and feel of the Teins.

This is great info though and if I ever have a project car dedicated to tracking, I assure you I will be paying close attention to your suggestions.

As for TA2's comment, "lap times talk bullsh$t walks"... that's pretty funny but he's driving a freaking Mercury Grand Marque for god's sake that was slow as molasses out to the tight turns, it's an automatic on street tires and the only prep he had done to it was putting gas in it. It's a rental car! Yours is a kick *** Mustang with many suspension mods and a Titanium Johnson Rod (lol). Following anyone on the track can give the illusion the driver ahead is all over the track simply because the car may be taking a different line. The speed at which moves take place makes the persons car in front look erratic and all over the place.

Outside track on 14 extends the straight lines and reduces the possibility of error. Mid-track is smooth and continuous but more sensitive. I can't vouch for the speed of the lines as I will leave that to you guys that know more and have more experience. I don't expect anyone to change their approach. I can definitely say that I can't wait to go back and try both lines. I will then take my video and put the two side by side of both approaches and see how they look with no other car in front to interfere. I think this will tell me which is better for un-impeded driving. However when in traffic, this is the type of thing that would be good to know both lines well.

More vids TA and TA2... I know you have them!

TorqueAholic

Thanks TA, thats' why I put 10 passes in the Vid, if that does not make the point, I don't know what will!

Silver, in a real race: straight, with your foot on the floor will beat sawing at the wheel everytime. The artsy wide swings look entertaining but it ain't the fast way around. A smooth, straight as possible line with the most time at WOT IS the faster way.


Then how do you explain:

1) My car being Consistently 4-5 secs faster per lap than the last time I came with the stock suspension

2) Cornering harder than pretty much everyone running in the most advanced drivers / instructors street car group while driving a car with a chassis that started life as a '78 Ford Fairmont blowing 80K brand new Porsches 997 off the track?

3) Why would Balanced Performance tell me that the car will be incrementally better

I understand what the magazine says, I have been reading car magazines for over 30 years.

If there is one thing I have learned from reading magazines it's that all the talk and theory doesn't mean squat until you put a G meter or a stop watch to it and see what's real.

What I am talking about is harsh, real flesh and blood, and bruised egos reality.

The buck stops here: The camera does not lie, and neither do the Lap times.