GA RX-8 Club - PANOZ Track Days - Road Atl - Sep 16-17
09-19-2006, 07:28 AM
#76
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Here are a couple pics from L8APEX. He shot about 170 images and I'm dumping them to CD. I'll let him post what he wants to from the rest. Great shooting L8! Thanks for your hard work.
09-19-2006, 09:59 AM
#78
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Outstanding Don! I am completely impressed and happy for you. The upshift in the esses really works to settle the car as well as let the engine breathe a little easier. I'll spend my next track day working towards my goals. Looks like you need to think about a T3 ride, maybe get TA and the boys together and form a team! It's a great way to blow a huge sum of cash!!!
09-19-2006, 10:06 AM
#79
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Thanks Charlie!
Ummmmm, sounds fun. I think I'v blown all my cash for the year. I'm looking for next season unless I find a stash somewhere. If I'm REALLY lucky, I may get one more in ~caugh~ Barber.
Ummmmm, sounds fun. I think I'v blown all my cash for the year. I'm looking for next season unless I find a stash somewhere. If I'm REALLY lucky, I may get one more in ~caugh~ Barber.
09-19-2006, 02:39 PM
#82
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I watched some of your vids, and you looked great. The only thing I saw was it really seemed to push through 6 and 7. I don't know if braking later and loading the tires more would help, or if I am just spoiled with the R compounds...>
09-19-2006, 02:56 PM
#83
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STF, thanks for the feedback. Do you think it is a driver, tire or alignment issue and what would you do to adjust it?
Toward the end of the day I was trail braking into turn 6 because I was carrying more speed than the first 4 sessions. The car was setting into turn 6 very nicely and carried itself out to the edge of the track. Once I thought I was going to launch myself right off the track sideways because it was moving out so much but it just snuggly set itself right where I wanted it as if I had drawn a line.
Edit: well you pretty well answered it with the possibly braking harder and later. I just need to go back and do it again. I don't have any tires to compare my Azenis to but the Bridgstone Potatoes.
Toward the end of the day I was trail braking into turn 6 because I was carrying more speed than the first 4 sessions. The car was setting into turn 6 very nicely and carried itself out to the edge of the track. Once I thought I was going to launch myself right off the track sideways because it was moving out so much but it just snuggly set itself right where I wanted it as if I had drawn a line.
Edit: well you pretty well answered it with the possibly braking harder and later. I just need to go back and do it again. I don't have any tires to compare my Azenis to but the Bridgstone Potatoes.
Last edited by SilverEIGHT; 09-19-2006 at 03:03 PM.
09-19-2006, 04:45 PM
#84
stay in 4th through 6--ya got the speed--cant go faster without changing gears.
Looks good man--youre smooth--should be able to keep in 3nd coming out of 7 also less gear changing the better?faster you will be.
I really like your braking and set up for turn 1.
Did anyone notice something in the vid? Look how much the gearshift lever is moving in the turns. Is that camera stabilization stuff or is the trans actually moving that much? I just had to replace my motor mounts--anyone else see that?
olddragger
Looks good man--youre smooth--should be able to keep in 3nd coming out of 7 also less gear changing the better?faster you will be.
I really like your braking and set up for turn 1.
Did anyone notice something in the vid? Look how much the gearshift lever is moving in the turns. Is that camera stabilization stuff or is the trans actually moving that much? I just had to replace my motor mounts--anyone else see that?
olddragger
09-19-2006, 05:35 PM
#85
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Thanks OD, Maybe what you are talking about in turn 6 would address the issue STF was talking about. Then carrying more speed to 7 resulting in downshifting to 3 not 2. Makes sense to me. Charlie uses 4th in 6 also. Next time, that will be #1 on my to-do-list.
Interesting, the movement must be the car flexing. You can see it in the seats as well. The reason you can see it is because the camera is EXTREAMLY well mounted. There is no movement or shaking. That allows you to see all those little things going on. There is no stabilization set so what you are seeing is no illusion, it truly is what you see.
Interesting, the movement must be the car flexing. You can see it in the seats as well. The reason you can see it is because the camera is EXTREAMLY well mounted. There is no movement or shaking. That allows you to see all those little things going on. There is no stabilization set so what you are seeing is no illusion, it truly is what you see.
Pretty big tank slapper for the Cobra!
09-19-2006, 06:18 PM
#87
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Yea, that was a little smoother than when you rode with me. I was looking at the vids this evening and I really don't think I have anything better to show than these last two laps. Althought I have some of me passing cars, it's just not as smooth and I think that is the way I want to remember this event. I'll dig through them again and see if there is something interesting.
Cobra guy not fast! He need track tires an learn how drive!
Cobra guy not fast! He need track tires an learn how drive!
09-19-2006, 07:58 PM
#88
Dang Silver--i may start a thread about this. I thought our chassis was a lot stiffer than that( i think my wife has told me the same thing.
) I noticed on my car that the shifter was moving more when acclerating and that is one reason I had my dealership check the mounts--they replaced both!
Guess you need some suspension changes to get rid of that ?
Good driving partner.
Olddragger
) I noticed on my car that the shifter was moving more when acclerating and that is one reason I had my dealership check the mounts--they replaced both!Guess you need some suspension changes to get rid of that ?
Good driving partner.
Olddragger
09-19-2006, 08:06 PM
#89
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Originally Posted by olddragger
Dang Silver--i may start a thread about this. I thought our chassis was a lot stiffer than that( i think my wife has told me the same thing.) I noticed on my car that the shifter was moving more when acclerating and that is one reason I had my dealership check the mounts--they replaced both!
Guess you need some suspension changes to get rid of that ?
Good driving partner.
Olddragger
) I noticed on my car that the shifter was moving more when acclerating and that is one reason I had my dealership check the mounts--they replaced both!Guess you need some suspension changes to get rid of that ?
Good driving partner.
Olddragger
EDIT:
Damn I'm slow! I went back and read your post again and for some reason the thing about your wife didn't register at first
Last edited by SilverEIGHT; 09-19-2006 at 08:08 PM.
09-19-2006, 08:39 PM
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OD, No need to change anything. I have NEVER seen a manual tran equipped car that did not do that.
The car's drive train CANNOT be solidly mounted on a street car because of excessive NVH levels (NVH: Noise, Vibration, Harshness). The car would be way to noisy and shaky.
I bet you can get somebody to sit in your car in neutral open the hood and ask him/her to goose it and you will see the engine move an inch or two as it's designed to do that. That's why radiator hoses are flexible, the engine moves constantly but the radiator is fixed.
The engine is solidly mounted to the trans, so the whole getup will move around especially during high torque demands or bumps or combination of both (Like moving between 6 and 7 with your foot in it).
The car's drive train CANNOT be solidly mounted on a street car because of excessive NVH levels (NVH: Noise, Vibration, Harshness). The car would be way to noisy and shaky.
I bet you can get somebody to sit in your car in neutral open the hood and ask him/her to goose it and you will see the engine move an inch or two as it's designed to do that. That's why radiator hoses are flexible, the engine moves constantly but the radiator is fixed.
The engine is solidly mounted to the trans, so the whole getup will move around especially during high torque demands or bumps or combination of both (Like moving between 6 and 7 with your foot in it).
Last edited by TorqueAholic; 09-19-2006 at 08:43 PM.
09-19-2006, 08:43 PM
#91
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Once again - awesome performance Silver.
A couple of points to add:
turn 7 in 2nd gear - I think turn 7 is easily taken in 2nd gear as the shift to 3rd doesn't occur until after track out. I have been taking it in 3rd forever but in March when STF instructed me, he suggested I use 2nd to power out when I was going to pass someone coming out of the corner. I have done that since that day to pass and it gives a great sense of acceleration. Other times I just stay in 3rd and it "feels" slower as the car isn't in its power band to leap out of the corner. maybe it is faster to keep it in 3rd but I am not certain either way. Another reason I have kept it in 3rd is to minimize the number of shifts. I also am prone to occasionally having a hard time sliding the shifter into 3rd when trying to execute a quick 2-3 shift at red-line with my adrenaline pumping.
turn 6 - I tried keeping it in 4th for turn 6 based on Charlies advice a long time ago and it didn't feel so good so I have been downshifting to 3rd for that turn. However, I was lucky to go on the van ride on Sunday morning and the instructor was explaining that to execute turn 6 properly you need to come in hard and trail brake into it not thinking about accelerating to turn 7. He said in his spec miata his data logger shows him entering turn 6 at 105 and exiting it at 80. So instead of accelerating thru the turn, you slow through it. it makes sense if you think about it. Following turn 6 is a braking zone for 7 which is the slowest corner on the track. You won't gain much by braking early for 6, then accelerating through it to turn 7.
Esses - I am torn here. If I keep it in 3rd, I have a much more relaxed time in 5. I feather the throttle to stay off the rev limiter though so I may could go a tiny bit faster but I don't think I want to go appreciably faster there. If I shift to 4th, the car is more planted and can go faster but 5 is busier. I guess for me I have chosen the "easy way" but will play with it my next time at RA.
The great thing about this hobby/activity/sport is that there is so much to learn and improve. just when you think you figured out a corner, you learn something new. Just when you learn something new, you go faster which changes how that corner feels...
A couple of points to add:
turn 7 in 2nd gear - I think turn 7 is easily taken in 2nd gear as the shift to 3rd doesn't occur until after track out. I have been taking it in 3rd forever but in March when STF instructed me, he suggested I use 2nd to power out when I was going to pass someone coming out of the corner. I have done that since that day to pass and it gives a great sense of acceleration. Other times I just stay in 3rd and it "feels" slower as the car isn't in its power band to leap out of the corner. maybe it is faster to keep it in 3rd but I am not certain either way. Another reason I have kept it in 3rd is to minimize the number of shifts. I also am prone to occasionally having a hard time sliding the shifter into 3rd when trying to execute a quick 2-3 shift at red-line with my adrenaline pumping.
turn 6 - I tried keeping it in 4th for turn 6 based on Charlies advice a long time ago and it didn't feel so good so I have been downshifting to 3rd for that turn. However, I was lucky to go on the van ride on Sunday morning and the instructor was explaining that to execute turn 6 properly you need to come in hard and trail brake into it not thinking about accelerating to turn 7. He said in his spec miata his data logger shows him entering turn 6 at 105 and exiting it at 80. So instead of accelerating thru the turn, you slow through it. it makes sense if you think about it. Following turn 6 is a braking zone for 7 which is the slowest corner on the track. You won't gain much by braking early for 6, then accelerating through it to turn 7.
Esses - I am torn here. If I keep it in 3rd, I have a much more relaxed time in 5. I feather the throttle to stay off the rev limiter though so I may could go a tiny bit faster but I don't think I want to go appreciably faster there. If I shift to 4th, the car is more planted and can go faster but 5 is busier. I guess for me I have chosen the "easy way" but will play with it my next time at RA.
The great thing about this hobby/activity/sport is that there is so much to learn and improve. just when you think you figured out a corner, you learn something new. Just when you learn something new, you go faster which changes how that corner feels...
09-19-2006, 08:45 PM
#92
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Originally Posted by TorqueAholic
OD, No need to change anything. I have NEVER seen a manual tran equipped car that did not do that.
The car's drive train CANNOT be solidly mounted on a street car because of excessive NVH levels (NVH: Noise, Vibration, Harshness). The car would be way to noisy and shaky.
I bet you can get somebody to sit in your car in neutral open the hood and ask him/her to goose it and you will see the engine move an inch or two as it's designed to do that. That's why radiator hoses are flexible, the engine moves constantly but the radiator is fixed.
The engine is solidly mounted to the trans, so the whole getup will move around especially during high torque demands or bumps or combination of both (Like moving between 6 and 7 with your foot in it).
The car's drive train CANNOT be solidly mounted on a street car because of excessive NVH levels (NVH: Noise, Vibration, Harshness). The car would be way to noisy and shaky.
I bet you can get somebody to sit in your car in neutral open the hood and ask him/her to goose it and you will see the engine move an inch or two as it's designed to do that. That's why radiator hoses are flexible, the engine moves constantly but the radiator is fixed.
The engine is solidly mounted to the trans, so the whole getup will move around especially during high torque demands or bumps or combination of both (Like moving between 6 and 7 with your foot in it).
any manual tranny car... coast in gear then give it gas and watch the shifter move.
09-19-2006, 09:14 PM
#93
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Originally Posted by TrackAddict
turn 6 - I tried keeping it in 4th for turn 6 based on Charlies advice a long time ago and it didn't feel so good so I have been downshifting to 3rd for that turn. However, I was lucky to go on the van ride on Sunday morning and the instructor was explaining that to execute turn 6 properly you need to come in hard and trail brake into it not thinking about accelerating to turn 7. He said in his spec miata his data logger shows him entering turn 6 at 105 and exiting it at 80. So instead of accelerating thru the turn, you slow through it. it makes sense if you think about it. Following turn 6 is a braking zone for 7 which is the slowest corner on the track. You won't gain much by braking early for 6, then accelerating through it to turn 7.
My agenda for next RA:
1. The Esses: 4 gear
2. Turn 6: 4th gear, faster, harder on the break later and trail braking appropriately.
Ummmmm.... track!
09-19-2006, 09:20 PM
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About the shifting thing and gear ratio's. I learned some interesting stuff by following guys at Barber that had basically the same car but with different final ratio's (And were leaving me in the straights)
Being the TorqueAholic, I did some research on Corner-Carvers and downloaded a Shifting Points / hp/ mph / rear wheel torque calculation spreadsheet.
Once fed with the proper data points, the spreadsheet will spit-out available rear wheel torque at all speeds in any gear.
I plugged in my cars hp / torque curve, transmission ratios, final drive ratio, and tire size than did some analysis on the results and confirmed what I experienced @ the track: When trying to maximize rear wheel torque (Acceleration) The whole minimizing the number of shifts is to be taken with a grain of salt as having your engine in a higher gear can cost you up to 55 lb/ft of torque at the wheels ( Im my case) when you need it most.
I would not be surprised that the penalties are a good bit stiffer for you guys as the RX-8 derives a high % of it's rear wheel torque out of the gears torque multiplication effect. (That's why the rotary has such a high redline).
For my setup this spreadsheet suggests that I gain by red-lining 2nd gear and also gain by short-shifting 3rd at about 5400 rpms which would support wailing out of 7 in 2nd but going to 4th in the front straight (which I don't normally do)
That was a mouthful to say keep your mind open and try stuff you might just learn something (And get faster )
All in all that was interesting / good tech out of Corner-Carvers I can show you a link if interested.
Being the TorqueAholic, I did some research on Corner-Carvers and downloaded a Shifting Points / hp/ mph / rear wheel torque calculation spreadsheet.
Once fed with the proper data points, the spreadsheet will spit-out available rear wheel torque at all speeds in any gear.
I plugged in my cars hp / torque curve, transmission ratios, final drive ratio, and tire size than did some analysis on the results and confirmed what I experienced @ the track: When trying to maximize rear wheel torque (Acceleration) The whole minimizing the number of shifts is to be taken with a grain of salt as having your engine in a higher gear can cost you up to 55 lb/ft of torque at the wheels ( Im my case) when you need it most.
I would not be surprised that the penalties are a good bit stiffer for you guys as the RX-8 derives a high % of it's rear wheel torque out of the gears torque multiplication effect. (That's why the rotary has such a high redline).
For my setup this spreadsheet suggests that I gain by red-lining 2nd gear and also gain by short-shifting 3rd at about 5400 rpms which would support wailing out of 7 in 2nd but going to 4th in the front straight (which I don't normally do)
That was a mouthful to say keep your mind open and try stuff you might just learn something (And get faster
) All in all that was interesting / good tech out of Corner-Carvers I can show you a link if interested.
Last edited by TorqueAholic; 09-19-2006 at 10:34 PM.
09-19-2006, 09:39 PM
#95
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Originally Posted by TorqueAholic
OD, No need to change anything. I have NEVER seen a manual tran equipped car that did not do that.
The car's drive train CANNOT be solidly mounted on a street car because of excessive NVH levels (NVH: Noise, Vibration, Harshness). The car would be way to noisy and shaky.
I bet you can get somebody to sit in your car in neutral open the hood and ask him/her to goose it and you will see the engine move an inch or two as it's designed to do that. That's why radiator hoses are flexible, the engine moves constantly but the radiator is fixed.
The engine is solidly mounted to the trans, so the whole getup will move around especially during high torque demands or bumps or combination of both (Like moving between 6 and 7 with your foot in it).
The car's drive train CANNOT be solidly mounted on a street car because of excessive NVH levels (NVH: Noise, Vibration, Harshness). The car would be way to noisy and shaky.
I bet you can get somebody to sit in your car in neutral open the hood and ask him/her to goose it and you will see the engine move an inch or two as it's designed to do that. That's why radiator hoses are flexible, the engine moves constantly but the radiator is fixed.
The engine is solidly mounted to the trans, so the whole getup will move around especially during high torque demands or bumps or combination of both (Like moving between 6 and 7 with your foot in it).
For the 8 probably a Chassis brace will do the trick, plus it will help premature wear on the chassis, and as an added bonus they protect everything underneath from ugly things like speed bumps.
09-20-2006, 08:48 AM
#96
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I was just talking to some frinds at break, explaining how you go from 124 MPH to turn into turn 10a in 200' at which time my friends got quiet and one said "What are you going to take up next, Sky Diving?" and my reply was "**** no, that's dangerous!" LOL
09-20-2006, 09:36 AM
#97
our motor mounts are a liquid filled type (if I understand correctly) and yes I realized they cant be solid mount (unless you want to tear something up!) It is the degree of movement that I noticed, not the movement itself. I should have been clearer. We all have some degree of movement as said. Our car has a tsb out about premature motor mount failures. I had approx the same degree of movement on hard acclearation is some gears that I saw on Silvers vid--that's why I mentioned this. Just a thought and it was the 1st vid I have ever seen that showed that degree of movement so well_Silver has a GREAT camera mount. I really didnt know my mounts were bad--just suspected they may be when I took my car in.
Good discussion on attacking the track! To me with my lower final gear (shorter tires) it is differant of course. Even with the 18's on 2nd through turn 7 i was never comfortable with that. Turn in at about 65 was right at redline for 2nd gear(with 18's on)--just seemed smoother and with less scrubbing when i was in 3nd. Now if for some reason i enter any slower--yep drop to 2nd. And TOrque I too short shift on the straight at apprx 8.5k or a little before.
Turns 3-4-5 are awkward for me with the 18's on. Its almost like a little too fast for 3nd and not quite fast enough for 4th. Just for example with my 17's on (24.4 inches tall) I am in 4th in a really good part of the engines powerband, from exit turn 12 until turn entering 5. Gearing makes a BIG differance. Course I have to get to 5th on the back straight also! Ahhh payoff's. We search and we play!
Silver my friend you are learning fast. we older ones will have to show the younger ones a thing or two if we can stay that late at night lol JK EVERYONE
olddragger
Good discussion on attacking the track! To me with my lower final gear (shorter tires) it is differant of course. Even with the 18's on 2nd through turn 7 i was never comfortable with that. Turn in at about 65 was right at redline for 2nd gear(with 18's on)--just seemed smoother and with less scrubbing when i was in 3nd. Now if for some reason i enter any slower--yep drop to 2nd. And TOrque I too short shift on the straight at apprx 8.5k or a little before.
Turns 3-4-5 are awkward for me with the 18's on. Its almost like a little too fast for 3nd and not quite fast enough for 4th. Just for example with my 17's on (24.4 inches tall) I am in 4th in a really good part of the engines powerband, from exit turn 12 until turn entering 5. Gearing makes a BIG differance. Course I have to get to 5th on the back straight also! Ahhh payoff's. We search and we play!
Silver my friend you are learning fast. we older ones will have to show the younger ones a thing or two if we can stay that late at night lol JK EVERYONE
olddragger
09-20-2006, 10:09 AM
#100
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Originally Posted by SilverEIGHT
I was just talking to some frinds at break, explaining how you go from 124 MPH to turn into turn 10a in 200' at which time my friends got quiet and one said "What are you going to take up next, Sky Diving?" and my reply was "**** no, that's dangerous!" LOL
back on topic, you got any more of L8's pictures to put up? :D