Pretty simple for me:

1) I painstakingly (not really ) watch every minute of my video and put a stop watch to every lap.

2) While watching the videos and the clock I look for details on braking, corner entry line, corner exit, track out, and shift points. The squeeling tires give me a pretty good aural clue on braking and cornering. The shift points tell me about straight line speed (The earlier I shifted, the more speed I had through the las corner)

3) I look at the much more expensive, powerful, and sophisticated machinery I out-corner, out-brake, and suck the headlights off with my $8,500.00 bone stock Dearborn Iron!

STF, quite honestly 1:36 in your current 3300 or so lbs street setup Evo is a far stretch at Road Atlanta.

The best AIX lap times are in the 1:36 range and we are talking about a full on race car with full race suspension, stripped for light weight (about 2700 lbs), full cage and reinforcements for stiffness, race rubber, a torquey V8, etc, etc.

Your video's show 1:43 to 1:45 (By the way, that's WICKED FAST in a street car) I believe that with no traffic and extra cojones you might get down to 1:40 but 1:36 is a long 4 secs quicker. Remember that it's a lot easier to get from 1:44 to 1:40 than from 1:40 to 1:36...

 

I have already been a high 1:38 with 60 less horsepower and less tweaks. My previous best was a 1:55 at CMP (which is the setup I ran the 1:38), and I am now at 1:50's. No ofense to the AI guys, but most of the time, except a small few, I can out run them. Even though they are lighter, we have about the same power to weight, which is 9.5:1, and my car has much better suspension geometry.

As for the video from Sunday was me holding back, I was breaking at the top of the hill and not going past 6900. I had lost my brakes going into 10A on Saturday (yes Brembos with Motul and braided lines failed).

Also, my car makes power to 7850, which would allow me to eliminate two shifts, between 6 and 7, and going down the hill into 5. Those alone would put me in the 1:37s with the old setup.

To give you perspective of what a 'good' tuned Evo can due, and daily driven Evo has been a 1:45:50 at CMP, an Evo driven 900 miles to the event, and then back home. The car is nothing special, save the 100 more horsepower it has than my car. This is a testament to what a 'properly' prepped car can do.

Trust me after 15 years of racing, 10 of which were semi-pro, I know how hard it is to get faster. Like I said in my other post though, I was driving @80% of what the car could do SUnday, and you have to remember, the1:44's and such were in traffic. I had 3 or 4 laps in clean air on Saturday, and was running in the 1:40's, and bested that with a 1:38:90 or such. I keep telling you guys, I am holding back, you don't know what I could make the car due, if I didn't worry about driving it home.....

But, To give you reference of my ability, when I had my Mustang, I went 1:58's on street tires in a stock GT (except Eibach springs)at CMP. With mods to suspension and gear, i was at 1:55's, making 245whp in my GT before selling it. HOpe this helps.....

 

another way to tell if you are doing something right, or progressing...when another driver or instructor asks you how you execute a particular corner, or comes up to you after the session and asks why you are so much faster through a particular section than they were. you may not have been the fastest out there, or the fastest on the whole track, but you are obviously doing something right when other drivers want to know what you are doing.

 

1:38? This is what you put in Corner Carvers @ the time:



Look; I don't want to get into a Corner-Carvers style flame job, I am sure that your 15 years experience in Go-Karts comes in handy, and I know your car is fast.

But regardless, 1:36 is a stretch.

Too bad you're getting rid of the little bomb. I guess we'll never know for sure...

 

Torque, I don't know you, but TA and others speak highly of you, so this is no flame job, but rather, it is a disagreement. I understand and respect your points, and they are so noted. But, I have seen a 95 Porsche 911 go 1:35 at Road A with just slicks and power mods, we have all seen a Supra with the same coil-overs I have, but with 200 more whp (and a GREAT driver), breeze to a 1:33.

I would bet Steve or TA could easily wheel my car now to a 1:38 without any drama, with the way it is setup. The car is just sorted great, and has had tons of time put into the tune and suspension. I would bet it has more time put into it than most 'race' cars out there, because it is a street-car pulling duty as a track car. We all know how hard it is to compensate for a lacking stiff chassis and under-rated brakes, swaybars, springs, pads, fluids....etc.

Again, not flaming, but I don't think it is a stretch. I think with Nittos (which are .8s per minute of track time than RA1's) and the car the way it is (and cool weather like before), I think it is totally feasible. Now that Leh has his GSC car done, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see a 1:33 out of that car, with the new engine and stuff going on the car.

And....for reference, go-karting is a good thing...... I have never attended a DE as as student, and the one time I did, I was bumped to instructor after one session. Besides, when I was karting, I was coming up with some good folks, who I still know today. Great sport, I would highly recommend to anyone looking to get into motorsports. Unfortunately, with the insurance laws constantly clamping down ont he sport, I don't think we will see it much longer.

Again, no disrespect here, nor flaming, just a matter of opinion.

 

Hey STF, I am cool with that.

I agree to disagree.

No digs on karting either, I looked into it and for the kind of kart I would have liked to have (Bombardier Rotax Max spec class). The closest place for events was Chattanooga TN. That was just too much driving just to play with other guys. It's a known fact that a lot of celebrated professional drivers out there today grew up on Karts.

Anywho, I know that street cars with lots of boost can be real fast and I would have liked to see you try.

BTW, I think there is a Panoz event at RA next weekend...

Good luck with your next project car.

 

well hell--how about me shooting to break the 1:50 at RA in my little old car? Ya'll think I can? I like STF do not come close to pushing the car 100% at RA. I am in full nanny mode and still have a special high respect for that track. it can be very decieving. As you get faster you become more aware of that. For instance the elavation changes become much more troublesome at a higher speed. But If I really wanted too I could break 1:5o there.
If I can make Roebling I wonder what times I will be doing--heck I dont care ITS ALL FUN --I think I like sighting a car and figuring out where I want to challage him or set him up for a pass.
olddragger

 

Old Dragger, nobody in their right mind drives any car at 10/10's on any track without full safety equipment including a roll cage. I think that's especially true at Road Atlanta in a "go to work" street car you might be still making payment$$ on.


As for breaking 1:50 that's certainly possible. There is an SCCA IT guy whom turns 1:43's in an 8 with nothing more than springs, shocks, sways, pads, race rubber, and a roll cage.

If I remember right TA and Lego were both in the 1:52 or 1:53's at the time attack. I think under 1:50 will come with time a practice and won't feel like you're on the brink of disaster every other second either as your skill level will be commensurate with your lap times.

 

Both TA and Lego consitantly did 1:52 at RA.

All I know is I really don't care about my lap times right now, since I still have a lot to learn, and I can still feel my car can out drive my skills right now.

STF - I did some karting when I lived in England - it was a blast. Cool thing was that the karting track I would go to, some of the F1 teams would show up. They said that many F1 drivers learn by Karting. Only downside for me is my size doesn't work really well for karting , being 6' 4".

 

Well there ya go--everyone knows i am not in my right mind!
But on the more serious side you are absoulutely right. We dont drive 10/10 and I probably like all others never intend too.
Rotor on
olddragger

 

I got the full cage, Hans, and all and I still want to bring it home in one piece. My plums turned to raisins back around 1998 so I'll go faster as they swell back up and start to clank together when I walk. Until then, it's all for fun and I don't want to race anymore. Fender to fender was the most fun I've ever had but I wish I had the money back that I spent to entertain the crowds!

 

Self-reflection and analysis of vids, etc, are the best way to improve.

 

Oh, Mood, I don't know if this was before or after your time in England, but I used to drive 2cyl for Minarelli (sp) and for Swiss Hutless frames....Many many years ago.

 

I'm going to chime in now. I've been travelling a lot lately and finally saw this. I know I'm faster when I feel more comfortable. The more I do this, the more I learn that I have a lot more to learn. I work on smooth. Smooth is fast. Someone wise told me a long time ago, slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

 

As my time in England was spent working, I only went twice. Both time we did a 5 man team for a 3 hour enderance race. Man was it fun, one time we got first, the second time we got 2nd. Not only did you have to be fast, but you had to corridinate 9 driver changes throughout the race.

 

I saw something on Speed Vision (Remember when they used to call it Speed Vision?) many years ago with a very famous Le Mans driver it was either Hans Stuck or Walter Rohl ( I guess that dates me a bit..) in any case, they were showing the fast way around the La Sarthe circuit in an enclosed prototype car and you could swear the driver was moving almost in slow motion.

Everything looked like it was being operated in slow, deliberate movements: the steering wheel, the shifter, etc

And that was his whole point, he said: The slower you are in the cockpit, the faster you are on the track. That stuck with me, I figured if it's true for a 240+ mph Le Mans prototype, then it must be true for everything else.

I usually try to do that but don't always succeed.

P.S. Speaking of Le Mans prototypes, too bad most of you will miss the Petit Le Mans @ Road Atlanta. Seeing a prototype car scream down the hill @ 170+ then hit the binders and whip around 10A at about 70 mph is a sight to behold!

Anybody coming??

 

Then again, shifting into 4th on the short straight between turn 7 and 8, turning in and feathering the gas until you see the apex, then putting it to the mat while feeling the *** of your car start wiggly waggling as you hit the apex and track all the way out at 100+ on Roebling's front straight is a feeling to behold. And, that is just one section of this awesome track. Did I ever mention the feeling you get as you power out of turn 2 charging into 3 with nothing more than a courtesy lift to point the nose carrying a 4 wheel drift at 90+ before getting hard on the binders for turn 4? That my friend is some exciting ****!!

 

wow, now I am even more excited, and it is only 7 am. the above mentioned is why I am tracking, and not watching. I can't get any better by watching the Petit.

 

My name is Don... and I'm addicted to track. I started off just photographing you guys and got sucked into one of the most fasinating things I've ever done in my life. No... it IS the most fasinating thing I've ever done. I love it! Thanks guys!

STF, I've not compared myself to others so much because I have been too busy just trying to learn how to drive. This is my first year and I've moved from HPDE1 to 2 Solo and from Panoz D to C but what I have learned this year has been tremendous. Every instructor was different but each had important lessons.

Please pardon this long post but I've really wanted to spill my guts on this and you hit a nerve. It's not so much of a comparrison to others but a synopsis of what I learned. Next year maybe I'll do a comparrison.

1. Ga RX-8 Club at TGPR
I was a dumb *** first timer, clueless and with two left hands. I went off the track twice and almost a third. Could not hit the apex and had no idea how to enter a turn properly. Coaching from the group helped me stay on the track but I sucked bad! Sorry TA, it wasn't your fault!

2. NASA Road Atlanta
Instructor: James Ray. (Drives Mustang GT)
One of the first things he requested I do was turn off my DSC... ummm, I don't think so! Sorry James, that's not going to happen. After I got past that with him. I was much better. The line he wanted me to take was good all around the track but tracking out on turn 1 was way left of what everyone else was doing and my DSC kept kicking in when apexing turn 2. This was very frustrating. The abrupt shift was upsetting he car and causing the Stability to kick in. I wanted to try the standard line but since he was my instructor I did what he said. I figured there was a lesson there somewhere. I could never get the nerve to WOT turn 9 and down to the braking zone. Had a hard time paying attention to the corner workers and looking ahead as I pretty much had the tunnel vision thing going on. Too many things to think about.

3. CMP - Mustang Club
Instructor: Rob Whitener (Drives RX-8)
This was exciting. Rob is the owner of Roar Racing and I was pumped for this one. Rob succeded in getting me to compress braking, carry more speed through turns, look ahead, relax, pay attention to corner workers and really enjoy the driving. Damn good instructor. I really enjoyed time with him.

4. PANOZ - Road Atlanta
Instruction was a different animal here. You are solo with lead/follow. I really liked this because I was able to put the things I had learned into use without having someone telling me what to do. It was great. There is something about being alone that makes you feel the car better. You are more in tune with it and respond better to it's moves. Charlie (marietta 8) rode with me one time to give me instruction and what he told me helped a tremendous amount. Mainly, "Get all your busy work done before the turn". That one statement seemed to be the most important thing I learned the whole day. I could never seem to get the busy work done prior to entering turn 5 as it was my weakest spot on the track. I never was comfortable with it and got squirrelly several times. But, I picked a fast group to run with and they shook my hand after coming off the track (Viper, 2 Mustang GT's, C6). That made my day. I learned to keep my foot in the gas through 9 and down to the braking point. I discovered that taking the inside line (standard) in turn 1 was better for the cars stability as my DSC never kicked in one time as when driving with NASA earlier in the year.

5. NASA - Road Atlanta
Instructor: Lawrence (Drives 944 Turbo)
Great instructor. Very conservative. No rumbel strip driving. I let up a little tracking out of turn 6 one time and he got upset and said "DON'T DO THAT" very imfatically. I'll never forget that. Staying off the edges of the track made me compress my turning and go a little slower (I thought). Then the rain came and I learned to not stay on the dry line but getting offline increased your traction. Going slow made me smooth my driving out which paid off later when it dried up. This was a perfect learning situation as I discovered later when viewing my videos that I was a completely different driver now. Smooth, attention to mirrors and corner workers, attention to surroundings and I was getting very comfortable behind the wheel. My hands are in the proper position and new right where they needed to be as I worked on eliminating extra movements. Lawrence signed my off to solo for my last two sessions. TrackAddict, after viewing my vids, told me I needed to shift gears from the top of the shifter instead of the holding it from the side, which is natural to me. So I have been working on that daily and will add it to my tracking next time. Having members of our group give advice has been VERY important to the learning process.

6. PANOZ - Road Atlanta
Coming this Sunday and I can't wait to put all of the previous lessons to work. Six sessions on the track, OMG, I just peed a little!

 

IF you pay attention. You can learn a lot at the Petit or any or Pro event

I learned how to carry a lot more speed smoothly through 1 at Road Atlanta by watching the pros. I was always braking too late and despite my efforts to turn in late, I had lots of understeer comming out. After watching the real fast guys do it, I learned to brake earlier, get on the gas earlier, and help the weight transfer.

Now the understeer is gone, the car is way more stable (And feels safer) and I carry more speed. Same story through 5, and 7.

Carefully watching a guy who's the lead driver (Like Alan McNish) for a 100 million + Bucks a year team can teach you lots. Of course if you just go to sip beer, eat pork rinds, check out the racing babes, and occasionaly watch the cars go by you won't learn much ( I do all of the above of course)..

Seriously though, if you pick a corner and study their every move, you will see what works, what does not (Lots of passes coming out of 7 and through 10a, 10b) and definitely learn.

After about 400 miles around Barber for my 18 runs in 3 days of tire torture and brake anhilation I feel quite satisfied . I'll chill @ the Petit & I might go to Roebling with Chin in November .

 

Driving styles are differant. Observation can teach you a lot IF the driver is driving a similar type vehicle to your own. Momentum cars vs power car for example.
You are absoulutly correct about that weight transfer thing--get your chassis set up for the turn before the turn---if you are running the line. So many variables. the straight ater 7 is a major passing zone for power cars--a little harder for momentum cars--they like everything from after turn 1 to turn 6.
olddragger

 

Bump! I just happened across this and it is a great read. And is mostly the people that got me thru DE1.
Ya'll remember this?

 

Back from the dead....

 

They don't let you use timers out there?

Here in Calif we rent timers.

Although the instructers teach you not to use them unless you have alot of track time.

I use them and gage each session and each lap. If you find your self getting faster as the day progresses then your good.

You need to compare yourself to gain confidence and not to others.

Comparing to others can cause you to push too hard and cause an accident.

The main thing is to have fun. Not how fast you drive. I would consider yourself a Pro if you have driven on the track 4 times. That is a PRO on the street.
And that's where it counts to avoid accidents.

Remember there is always someone faster than you.

Generally speaking if you find yourself relatively comfortable and looking ahead and while in the advance section some day, I'd say you can consider yourself good.

Good and fun is better than hitting the wall.

If your sad because someone is a few seconds faster than you................

You'll find they have more experience, more HP or torque, or more specfically a different car set up. The same car with the same mods are not necessarily the same speed on the track.

Alot depends upon how deep you brake and how smooth you are.

 

Oh Ja, that reminds me follow good drivers. Doesn't make a differance if they go out of your sight. If you can start ahead of three good drivers and let them know that ahead of time and let them pass right away.... alot of fellow drivers will oblige your request.

Then you will say ahh... so that's how they do that. Doesn't mean you can do it just as fast but you will be better and smoother.