Sigma

What part of "average" was difficult to understand? I didn't say no one was modding an RX-8.

Fact of the matter is that for every unmodded STi you can find I have little doubt I can find 100 unmodded RX-8s (assuming they were produced in equal numbers, which they're not).

If people were truly interested in extracting lots of power from the RX-8s they'd be clamoring for SSRs Turbo or pushing PTP to release theirs much harder than they are. Or trying to get Pettit to start selling their supercharger. But they're not. If they go turbo at all they go the cheap route because they're not really that serious about putting out lots of money to make power. But I can go to my350z.com and find hundreds of people with $10,000 built-up motors and some with $30,000 fully-built-up twin-turbo applications. I'm sure the same could be said about STi forums (I don't frequent those). We've really only got the one guy in Puerto Rico truly pushing the barrier here.

Niro

The problem with the RX8 is that it's a car for enthusiasts...a rotary engine isn't really an easy sell to people that have no idea what that is. On top of that, it just requires more maintanance then most cars....people want to do as little of that as possible, especially getting near the $30k range.

The problem with it being geared towards enthusiasts is that they would look at the RX8, and then a few grand away is the STi which blows it away in almost all categories, and has much more potential....so who's going to be buying the car? The rotary enthusiasts and those who don't really care about performance as much but like the looks AND don't mind the extra maintanance and care they need to put in. My opinion at least...I'm no marketing expert by any means.

The STi can be very civil looking, that wing makes it look ricey...but take that off and add a smaller wing and it just looks like an every day sedan...which will take almost anybody by surprise and blow right past them.

The RX8 is definetly a great car...I still have fun in it and love driving it..but it would be that much better if the performance was there also.

Niro

What part of NA "potential" don't you understand?

Did you finish reading my post? POTENTIAL from a renesis is nowhere near that of a WRX engine...people come on this forum all the time asking..."what's the best I can do with $1500 for performance??". The response is always the same...

"uhh...you can get a cz, flywheel, and maybe an intake, that should get you about 10-20whp, and only if you're really lucky with that CZ, you may get a total of 5-10whp. There's just nothing you can get out of a renesis unless you pop a turbo in there, and only 50whp from that".

Ask the same question in a wrx forum...you can probably pull 50whp with that money. Two years and they can't figure out how to get more power out of this engine...what does that tell you? Uhhh...the engine is pretty damn optimized as it is, get $10k, buy a turbo, improve airflow, upgrade the drivetrain and wheels, hope for about a 60-70 total hp increase and see how long it takes you to blow the engine.


EDIT: I'm sure you've seen this thread...but somehow it seems relavent... https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-aftermarket-performance-modifications-23/what-renesis-na-capable-off-65630/

Sigma

You need to keep up with conversation, Niro.

1> We weren't discussing just NA. We were discussing the likelihood of the different groups of people to mod their cars, particularly serious mods like high-flow turbos that push the limits of what the engine is capable of.

2> No one knows what the "potential" of the Renesis is, since no one is really pushing it (which is exactly the point) so one can't say that the STi has a stronger motor, although that very well may be the case.

Niro

Well, you did reply to my post stating specifically potential of an engine, and without a turbo...I guess you just didn't pay attention. NP.

Anyway...I would be VERY surprised if the RX8 engine could keep up with an STi engine...to even come close you would have to drop some serious loot...has anyone even modded their rx8 enough to keep up with a stock STi??

Sigma

Nope. Because, like I said, people aren't that serious about modding the 8 for power. While there certainly are people here that would love more power they are in the minority as, as has been mentioned here numerous times, a person valuing high amounts of power probably would have bought something else for similar money. Which is why my350z.com is FULL of people running 12s and 11s, but not really as many track-racing or autocrossing as we have here.

Presumably though, according to SSR, "several" people have bought their Turbo kit. They just don't frequent these Forums. It's possible, likely probable, that those cars could outrun a stock STi if they're putting down upwards of 300rwhp. Maybe not 0-60 times just because of the sheer advantage of AWD. But ~300rwhp should run a low-13 or high-12 with the right driver and setup.

silentgame

The reason the STi and EVO have such good performance numbers is because they are bought based on race(rally) cars and the only difference is that they have been converted to meet DOT regulations.

Also the STi doesn't beat the EVO 0-60 or 1/4 mile. I've seen posted times of the EVO Rs hit 60 in 4.4 and 1/4 in 13.0

Longhornxtreme

First off.. the reason a whole boatload of 350z's are pulling low ET's is that they are a true muscle car... They drive, and feel, like my 99z28 did... (of course they handle a little bit better...) Pure torque motor in a heavier car... sure it 'can' handle, but with some SERIOUS pucker factor when at the limit... and can we say SNAP oversteer?


I want to make it absolutely clear that I have no problem with that! I owned an 11.2 second ls1 z28. I see the appeal of a car like that... but like many power heads... i got in so much trouble as well as got so bored with just driving in a straight line I got rid of it. The philosphy of all these different cars are entirely different.

As far as potential with different motors goes, that's comparing apples to oranges. I know that osunds cliche, but that's the damn truth. You can't compare a turbo boxer engine to a torquey V6 to a rotary engine designed not for ultimate power but for a gigantic torque curve over a huge RPM range. So what if 1500 dollars gets you 50 hp in a wrx motor? That 1500 could get me 200 in a pushrod V8... get over it....

The 8 to me is the perfect platform for building a supercar for around 40-50k dollars (USD). Its got some weight to lose, it looks gorgeous, its chassis is about as neutral as it can get (well once I dial it in my way... ). I've humbled Vettes, an older RT-10 viper, numerous 3 series Bimmers, and various 350z's/G35's etc in the world that I drive in called the track. And by humbled, I mean that I've been just driving aggressively yet comfortably while watching the Viper owner snarling in his rearview that a 'mere' RX8 is sticking right to his ***...

A few of us are brainstorming some ways to finally fix the ECU issues without the cost of Motec... What people need to realize is that buying a kit off the wall for power is NOT the way to build a fast car. I'm not bashing the Greddy kit. It does what it does and it satisfies a group. Its not the kit for me. Or alot of people.

There's PLENTY of space in the engine bay, and I have a feeling the Renesis is much more of a hoss than most people think. Just like the FD was underpowerd compared to the competition of its time (stock for stock), the rx8's power issue will eventually get figured out by the people that actually care about more than just 0-60 times.

I know there's people out there that understand me. Those people have alot of driving experience at the limit in a bunch of different cars.

-=Rowdy=-

This is completely false for a lot of people. I bought the car because I looked at other cars and in the mid to upper 20ks, nothing came close to the total package the 8 delivered.

Mustang-soon to be a cookie cutter car plus insurance rates.
350Z-Two seater, too impractical-didn't like the cheap-looking interior.
G35-Too many on the road and nice but somewhat boring looks.
Sti and Evo-great, unique cars but IMO ugly interior that I just cannot get past.
GTO-U-G-L-Y

Not all 8 owners are looking to buy a car because they are a rotary enthusiast. I would have bought the 8 if it was piston-driven.

Niro

Really? You would of bought the 8 if it was a piston engine redlining at 7k or so? Maybe you would of...but I'm willing to bet you're in the minority. Still...I would think other then looks the 8 is not so appealing to the general public.

Niro

Haha...I got the perfect example of what I was talking about. Look at the general discussion folder....

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...4&page=1&pp=15

MRGO26:
"However a few issues concern me. Firstly, I am unfamiliar with how a rotary engine works and how it's different from a normal cylindar engine. I was told that the RX-8 burns a lot of oil - so much that it's almost required to top the oil off after every other gas fuel up. Is this true? Also the gas mileage is much worse compared to the RSX. How many miles per tank do you guys get on average?"

exactly what I was talking about...people don't know the engine, but they know it requires more maintanance...not everybody is going to come to rx8club.com to ease their mind before purchasing a 30k car.

Sigma

Did you miss the part where he said that he was still leaning towards an RX-8 despite its' "problems"?

No one is denying that a certain group of people are scared away by the supposed "extra" maintenance that one needs to put in.

Some people are willing to overlook it. Some are not. It's no different than how some people can overlook the GTO's looks (or lack thereof), or the relatively cheap interior in a 350Z, or the absolutely cheap interior in an STi/EVO.

Frankly I'd say that if one were to blame the rotary engine itself for the lack of sales currently it would be its' flat torque curve more than anything. Few people truly research a car before buying it; I'd wager that at least 50% of RX-8 buyers don't even know they've got a different kind of engine in their car. Most aren't going to know about oil-checking intervals or poor gas mileage until they actually own the car (and the checking oil thing not even then). But the flat torque curve is immediately apparent on a test-drive.

I don't even know if I'd even go so far as to say that the Renesis "requires more maintenance". Maybe more attentiveness, but not more maintenance. If your average owner actually read the friggin' Owner's Manual there wouldn't be so many complaints. I know it'd be nice if Mazda could solve all the engineering issues that make the rotary less average-person-friendly, but most could be solved by simply reading the Owner's Manual. Personally I don't point the finger at Mazda for not engineering out some of the inherent quirks of a Rotary, I point the finger at it for not better-educating the consumer.

Niro

Yea...that way of thinking will run any company into the ground. "yea...our product is not the problem, YOU are the problem, read the friggin' manual! It's there for a reason!!", click.

I think you're underestimating the average consumer...the average consumer will actually read consumer reports and do a LITTLE research before dropping 30 grand on a car. The first thing anybody says about an RX8 is its rotary engine...it's the highligh of the car, it's what makes the car what it is. 30k is not cheap, unless you're rich and the rx8 is your beater car, you're going to research just a little before commiting to a $400+/month bill.

Overlooking the looks of a gto or an STi is not the same as overlooking obvious extra effor that you need to put into a renesis. Looks are completely subjective, alot of people don't think the car is ugly at all, the interior of the STi is actually not bad at all.

Kind of off topic...but you know what the sales guy told me when I was buying my rx8? He said, in almost exact words: "Because the engine is so powerfull, it eats oil so you need to check it every now and then to make sure it's ok, also it's important you let it warm up before shutting it down...you just have to make sure a powerfull engine like this is not cold when you shut it off or it can cause some problerms".

Yea...because the engine is so powerfull...

Ofcourse he said that after I payed right before I was about to drive off with it...but I wonder if I would of been pretty pissed if I didn't know any better...

Sigma

It's companies having to over-engineer everything these days to protect themselves from the retarded consumer (and consumers from their own retarded selves) that leads to so many screwed up cars and features.

Trying to engineer oil consumption out of a rotary engine is like trying to engineer gas consumption out of a V8. Some things are just inherent. You can do things to help it (like DoD on a V8) but you can't make the trait go away entirely.

Of course people still bitch about their V8 sucking gas, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they complain about a Rotary eating oil.

Yes, the average buyer probably knows that it has a Rotary engine.

But the average buyer probably doesn't know how that differs from, say, a Boxer engine.

To most it's just a name. An engine is an engine is an engine to your average buyer. They don't know, or even care, that one goes round and round and one goes up and down. It's why Mazda tries to force "Rotary" down your throat from every perceivable angle on the RX-8, to let you (and everyone else) know that you're driving something different.

And I'd disagree about your average consumer's education. It's surprising how dumb they are about a $30,000 purchase. I've worked in the automotive industry, work in the aftermarket industry, spend WAY too many hours a day in many automotive Forums, and spend quite a bit of time in vehicle showrooms because I like to test-drive just about everything out there. I've got quite a bit of experience both dealing with and just over-hearing your average consumer -- and most of them are VERY uneducated about their impending purchase. And, yes, a lot of them even come straight from the salesmen (like the Nissan salesmen last night who told me it could go 220mph if I chipped it ).

You make it sound like the 'extra effort' is so much work. Like checking the oil every few fill-ups (which you should be doing for any car) is so difficult. Oh, and don't start-up and shut-off the car too quickly because it might flood. That's about it.

And I didn't say that everyone thought the GTO or STi were ugly. But some people do. And some people can overlook it and some people can't. That's the point. I like the GTO and, though I'm not a huge fan of the looks, I can overlook them. My wife also likes the GTO but she just can't get over the looks. I can "get over" checking the RX-8's oil every couple weeks (namely because I'd do that no matter the car) but I can't get over looking at a car I don't like to look at, or sitting in an interior I feel is cheap. I'd have to overlook that everyday.

Well, at least he told you I guess. I'd like to say that the salesman was dumb, as most are. But, if you had just bought a car, which would you rather hear -- you have to treat your car differently because it's "so powerful" or because it's a Mazda? So he was probably rather smart in telling you so. The fact that so many people buy his reasoning is just evidence that few buyers truly understand what they're buying.

-=Rowdy=-

Example of what? You can't group everyone together and I was simply stating you were incorrect in lumping all 8 buyers.

Niro

Did I lump all 8 buyers? I said average consumer....

Rotary Rasp

iTrader: (2)

I'd just like to add that the 8 is faster than any other $30k 4 door car.

Niro

Not even close...guess you haven't read the whole thread (can't say I blame you this thing is 17 pages!!). It's faster then SOME 4 door cars in the 30k price range...definetly not ANY other 4 door car in that range.

Sigma

Yeah, sorry buddy, but even an Altima would beat the crap out of an RX-8 in a straight line.

Niro

LOL well I don't know if I'd go that far...the SE-R does come close tho'.

Sigma

I've run my Mazda6s against stock Altima 3.5 SEs that ran 14.4 to 14.5s. Hell, I run a 14.86 in my Mazda6s and it's short 30hp and 50ft/lb to the Altima SE. I've never run against an SE-R but I've heard they hit 14.3 with ease and I don't doubt it one bit.

spike9mm

Actually, many of those huge V-8s that have to measure by cid instead of liters get pretty respectable gas mileage, at least compared to the 8. Mainly i think it is due to the low gearing especially when cruising. The 8 has some pretty high gearing, but the V-8s with all their torque can get away with a lot lower gearing which results in better mileage.

Sigma

Well, yes, V8s can get really good mileage on the freeway since they're cruising at almost idle, but they get even worse than an RX-8 in-town, particularly if you're one to really get on it. Most people's average mileage overall in the GTO for example (a car that in Automatic form has a Gas Guzzler tax in the US) is right around what most people get on average in the RX-8 -- about 17 mpg.

Niro

the point is that ALL cars require gas...almost no car require oil every few fillups or risk damaging the engine. No car has flooding potential if you turn it off too fast, these are not things the average consumer wants to deal with when spending 30k for a car. They'll hear about these "issues" and say something like...ahhh, it looks nice, but I'll get xxxx car which also looks good, costs the same and is just as fast or faster then the rx8 instead of risking damaging this 'sensitive' engine by not strictly following these extra 'rules'.

Sigma

ALL cars require oil too. And they actually require checking it regularly too, it's just that your average American is too damned lazy to do so. Frankly if you got your oil changed at 3,000-mile intervals you'd probably never have to check if it really bothered you that much. Unless you got a real bad motor off the line I doubt you'd be burning oil fast enough to damage the engine before you changed it. Plenty of people haven't noticed any measureable amount of oil consumption at all between oil changes and many people don't report any more oil consumption than I lose in my Mazda6 between changes.

And if I had to choose between how often I have to stop and pour $40 into my tank and how often I have to stop and check oil and pour, maybe, 40 cents of oil into it I think I know what I'd pick. Of course I picked a car that requires both, so I'm not exactly average.

Funny thing, and rather off-topic, is that your average American will bitch and moan about a $40/tank of gas, but even if the rotary managed to get 40mpg, I think people would still be put off by having to add the oil. God forbid they have to touch a dipstick. It's hard to even find a decent squigee (sp?) at a gas station these days and you almost never seen anyone use them like you did years ago because people don't want to risk getting 'dirty'.