Aluminum Rotor Pictures!
#26
Originally Posted by BaronVonBigmeat
Aluminum works well for blocks, heads, and pistons...but not so well for connecting rods. They stretch out after a few dozen runs IIRC. A rotor is sort of like a piston and con rod all in one, so who knows. Seems like it would work though, I mean a rotor should be a lot stronger shape than a H-beam, right?
Has Mazda ever experimented with Al rotors, or has it been ignored due to cost, or durability concerns, or what?
Has Mazda ever experimented with Al rotors, or has it been ignored due to cost, or durability concerns, or what?
one neat thing is that the lighter you make the rotating parts, the smaller the loads on everything. so right away the bearings last longer, e shaft is going to bend less at high rpms, etc etc
#29
Maybe the thermal expansion coefficient of Al problems could be obviated by having ceramic or steel apex seals with a tricky way of mounting them on the rotor apexes...doesn't seem like an insur'mount'able problem.
10k rpm redline? Heck, why not shoot for 11k as a design goal?
Low compression aluminum rotors. Me want.
10k rpm redline? Heck, why not shoot for 11k as a design goal?
Low compression aluminum rotors. Me want.
#30
I am sure they have put thoughts into expansion rates when they design the rotors. There are probably many ways to address this problem, many we dont know of. I wonder how long they last in street applications tho. Cars with this modification will be heavily modded, NA or FI.
________
Live sex webshows
________
Live sex webshows
Last edited by Renesis_8; 09-11-2011 at 11:01 AM.
#31
Originally Posted by Turblown
Hugope,
We're not making these, Edgar Perez of E&J Autoworks is.
We're not making these, Edgar Perez of E&J Autoworks is.
#32
Originally Posted by j9fd3s
the 'rotary engine' book does talk about rotor materials, but i dont remember what it says. since they use iron side housings for cost reasons, id say that would apply to the rotors too.
one neat thing is that the lighter you make the rotating parts, the smaller the loads on everything. so right away the bearings last longer, e shaft is going to bend less at high rpms, etc etc
one neat thing is that the lighter you make the rotating parts, the smaller the loads on everything. so right away the bearings last longer, e shaft is going to bend less at high rpms, etc etc
#34
Originally Posted by MazdaspeedFeras
im wondering wether or not torque would drop on an aluminum based rotor engine due to lessened mass. my guess even less torque, higher horsepower due to higher rpms.
#35
my only thought in the process is basically taking the piston approach where stroke is a big deal in generating torque and less mass means less momentum (which is why higher rpms become necessary to generate the same momementums) but then again im not an engineer and im just postulating based on basic physics.
#37
Lighter rotating components do not effect torque. Only displacement does that. If the rotors were ultra dense and weighed 600 lbs each, we wouldn't have really torquey engines. They probably wouldn't even run. This is a very large misconception based on false perception. Heavier components actually hurt power and torque.
#39
It takes energy to move mass. It also takes energy to slow it down. A heavier flywheel or any other component still has the same amount of energy going into it. The key is how much gets through. The heavier the mass to rotate, the less gets through to the wheels. However some of the energy is "stored" in the mass of the rotating assembly. When you try to slow it down, it resists more. This is why a decently heavy flywheel is good on the street. It may take longer to accelerate but it also takes longer to decelerate. A really light rotating assembly will rev up or down very fast. This isn't the best thing if you want to keep fairly steady rpms between shifts and it isn't as good if you are trying to drive around really slowly. I pesonally like it! "Drivability" is a very interpretive term but typically going too light affects this adversely on a street car that needs to stay smooth. Lighter will make you faster. This applies anywhere in the car whether it be just weight of the car or weight of a rotating assembly.
#41
These will not work I am sorry to say. There is a reason we haven't seen more companies making rotors. There's much more to it than meets the eye. If they were able to dimensionally make these properly incuding seal grooves the thermal expansion rates would be the doom of it. There are other problems too unfortunately.
#42
Originally Posted by olddragger
i am curious about how they will mount the gears and if they will have problems. also
olddragger
olddragger
The rotors must have some serious issues to work out. They'd have to be thicker. The rotor gears would probably need to be done in the same way that RB is doing the gears on their housings. This is an assembly nightmare. My rear concern is with the seal grooves. These need fairly tight tolerances. How do you clearance a seal properly to account for when the engine is hot? If it's clearanced properly when hot, are the tolerances to tight when the engine is cold and is there any compression? If the tolerances were good when the engine is cold, are the too big when the engine is hot and is there added wear from the seals excessive movement in the grooves? Aluminum will wear faster with a sliding seal on it. Are the grooves ceramic coated to help both wear and expansion from heat?
Lots of concerns and issues to overcome. The issues that RB has with aluminum end and intermediate housings alone is a good case for why Mazda doesn't make them out of aluminum. The rotors are another nightmare altogether. I'd still like to see it work though.
#43
Originally Posted by CERAMICSEAL
These will not work I am sorry to say. There is a reason we haven't seen more companies making rotors. There's much more to it than meets the eye. If they were able to dimensionally make these properly incuding seal grooves the thermal expansion rates would be the doom of it. There are other problems too unfortunately.
I'm glad somebody finally put a stake in the vampire's heart ...
#46
What about hogging out the seal grooves and gear lands large enough to inlay a steel area of OEM size and then cryotreating everything? so you would have similar to stock expansion rates in these areas?
#47
Originally Posted by mac11
What about hogging out the seal grooves and gear lands large enough to inlay a steel area of OEM size and then cryotreating everything? so you would have similar to stock expansion rates in these areas?
Nothing about the rotor is as simple as it looks.
#48
Originally Posted by CERAMICSEAL
The standard way that Mazda has used to cast these in the first place is not easily duplicated. It's such a precision type thing. The tolerances are top priority. This is one of the reasons that I don't even recommend that people attempt to rebuild their own engines without proper training, experience and equipment: If you don't have every seal groove properly clean you are setting yourself up for problems. Most people cannot know what properly clean means.
I understand and I realize you and several others in this thread have infinatly more rotor knowledge than myself. I was simply thinking out loud.
Originally Posted by CERAMICSEAL
Nothing about the rotor is as simple as it looks.
#49
Originally Posted by CERAMICSEAL
These will not work I am sorry to say. There is a reason we haven't seen more companies making rotors.
Originally Posted by CERAMICSEAL
There's much more to it than meets the eye. If they were able to dimensionally make these properly incuding seal grooves the thermal expansion rates would be the doom of it. There are other problems too unfortunately.
#50
I was searching through some old articles and pictures of different Mazda engines. I always seem to learn something new everytime I go back and study these things. They have made aluminum rotors before. At least twice that I know of. The first was the HE10X and the second was the larger HE13X rotary engines. The HE10X utilized direct injection and redlined at 10,000 rpm. The rotors were 60% lighter than the cast iron units. The center bearing area and the area under the apex seals was not made out of aluminum. They were made of ceramic. These ceramic pieces were installed into a mold and then the aluminum cast around them into the rotor. No mention of ceramics where the side seals or oil seals were. Apparently it works. The larger HE13X engine utilized direct and conventional injection. I don't know about the redline. It made 220 hp. Aluminum has been done before as a rotor. It didn't sound cheap or easy though. Those engine were all aluminum.