BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

Since my post elicited your comment, allow me to expound.
It's not a matter of if I can afford it, I can, not even knowing the price.
It's a matter of wanting to get all I can get out of my 8 within the realm of bolt-on performance products excluding turbocharging or tuning.
I may likely get the header regardless of price simply because it will make me happy to get more performance out of such a simple modification, but hoping the expense is not too extravagant.
If I think it's worth it, then no one else can deem it foolish.

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

Not that anyone needs to justify Charles, his products, or his pricing -- before people hear the price and get bent out of shape, just remember that good, quality long tube headers with proven performance gains can cost upwards of ~$3000 (http://www.mbhmotorsports.com/#!cls5...-headers/c1t3v as an example).

I'm only putting this out there because we really want to make sure that this thread keeps on topic and emotions are kept in check

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

No worries, I rarely let my emotions get the best of me.
I prefer to explain myself if someone seems to misinterpret what I post, and if I'm wrong I'll admit it.
I'm just eager to see the finished product.

BlackStealth

iTrader: (3)

All I can suggest is that if you really want to know what the true gains are of a long tube header - compare it back to back with something similar.


I challenge anyone who forks out the cash on this long tube system against the likes of let's say, a racing beat header, mid pipe, and any 3" exhaust. Have the ECU tuned appropriately for each and let the numbers speak for themselves. I'm willing to bet anyone a substantial amount of money that the difference will be very low - most likely between 1-5hp max for the extended length (that's being generous).


Considering that the RB header is $540, the mid-pipe $370 for a total of $910 versus what will surely be at least $2000+ range, and the fact that he blatantly said he will inflate the price to his gain - I stand by my comments that you're foolish to pay that. So again, the gains may very well be near the 30hp mark, but so is the racing beat setup for ALOT less (I'm guessing).


But ofcourse, that won't ever happen. You'll just get the comparison results from stock to this and people will be drooling pathetically - "OMG'z... look at all the the horsepowerz! Can I haz too!? Take all my moneys!" Whatever makes you happy though!

Legot

iTrader: (1)

If anyone hasn't noticed, this is just a simple collection of metal pipes. With the right research and skillset anyone could build one and pay whatever the heck they want. The reason BHR is doing it is to fill the hole in the market where people are looking to buy bolt on modifications with real gains. It would be silly to believe that he wouldn't bring up the price, especially when you consider that real gains are quite likely, and that it would be the best (considering BHR's track record) of a very small number of options available.

You don't have to buy it. It's not even on sale yet so who really cares about the price per hp at this point?

BlackStealth

iTrader: (3)

... "A fool and his money are soon departed"

Legot

iTrader: (1)

It's also not on sale yet so I don't see your point.

pdxhak

iTrader: (2)

He is just trying to stir the pot.

BlackStealth

iTrader: (3)

My point is that I don't quite possibly see how you can't consider money as a factor when buying things like this when you have other options out there. When people say things to the likes of "I don't even care what it costs" - my jaw drops. No matter how wealthy you are, or think you are, that's just people being consumer ******. Period. Furthermore, I'm not stirring the pot so much as I'm trying to get people to think.

pdxhak

iTrader: (2)

It is all relative. It is not your money so why bitch and moan about it?

BlackStealth

iTrader: (3)

Okay, you're clearly not understanding the point of my posts. How in any way was I bitching and moaning? I'm clearly showing alternatives, pro's/cons and associated costs before shelling out and giving in - I'm also trying to educate as a result

But I guess you're right, I'm not the fool here blindly tossing money around - go for it if that's how you roll.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I have my own suspicions/guesses at what BHR's header + midpipe will yield for gains. But your guess about Racing Beat's setup is hugely inflated. Try 10-15hp. Previous to now, the highest street N/A dynos reported in the world were in the 225whp range. 235whp for race 8s with huge dollar figures of R+D, big money ECUs, etc...

Considering that a bone stock and healthy RX-8 can hit 200whp, do you really think that a collection of off the shelf exhaust parts could make up even all 25whp of that +25whp gain that street 8s see? Hardly. In fact, all of those top dynos were on custom built engines. Add up all the common existing mods that are proven not to cause any loss on an existing stock engine, and you are lucky to see 215whp.

Will this header blow those numbers out of the water? Relatively speaking, yes, I bet it will. Charles has already noted that one of his changes alone made the 10whp that other setups are able to produce in total. He wouldn't make those claims if it weren't true, because he knows how rabid this community is about backing those kinds of statements up when someone of his caliber makes them.

Yes, I also expect a price of $2k+. But I also know that Charles is savy enough when it comes to his business that if the price were not supported by the gains, then he wouldn't bother selling it. If his header does actually produce the +30whp that you suggest, people would still be buying it at $3k each I bet. Not tons, but he would still have a market for it.

You keep saying that a fool and his money are easily parted. For most RX-8 owners, that started the day they purchased a rotary, and we know it. So you aren't going to get much traction here with that. When power gains have always come in $500-$1000 buckets for 5whp increments that people will pay for, even a gain of 20whp is huge, and people will still pay for it. That doesn't make anyone any more of a fool than they were for purchasing a rotary in the first place.

I expect there will be people that will flatly choose to disbelieve Charles's results when he finally releases them, but you can't please everyone, and there will always be people that insist on walking around with blinders on. Charles knows that people will be testing his header on the dyno. He has everything to lose by lying or over-estimating. So how about you just wait and see? You aren't going to add or subtract any buyers with your comments. If someone comments that the header might be too expensive for them, that is entirely within their right to make that decision. If someone comments that the header can't be too expensive, that is also entirely within their right to make that decision. People in the car enthusiast world spend huge amounts of money all the time with zero return on investment, with no other gain than "I want to". Judging someone for doing so doesn't get you anywhere.

pdxhak

iTrader: (2)

You are kidding yourself if you think you are educating anyone.

I have no use for the long tube header but I support BHR. Charles is a standup guy and one of the few I know that can be trusted.

Legot

iTrader: (1)

I'd at least hear about the reported gains and wait until people buy it to call them fools. That's kind of rude. Who knows? Maybe the price point will be affordable only to race teams, and that's the true target market.

BlackStealth

iTrader: (3)

Alright, last post because you guys are right for the most part - no point speculating anymore until we get the claims

First of all - I don't think I'm overinflating the gains at all. Racing Beat themselves posted up a link to a review of their headers and midpipe by a magazine company with gains of 5-18hp. It was a complete hack job as well since they added a cat to the midpipe, bolted it to a stock diameter exhaust and didn't have it tuned. So considering the fact they got a peak of 18hp gain from a hack job, if it were a 3" tubed exhaust with a true free flowing 3" catless midpipe with tubular headers and properly tuned, I'm willing to bet it's closer to the mid-high 20's.

Second of all, there's a limit as to what an exhaust can do in regards to power due to the laws of physics. There is no magic formula or amount of pixie dust in the world that will give you a substantial gains from that point on (in this case, comparing the racing beat setup). However, there are gains and it is proven long tubes work. How much however is all speculative at this point with the RX8. Btw - it wasn't so long ago where everyone was saying headers on the rx8 was completely pointless due to no overlap blah blah blah... my my have things changed with all this hype

I'm not calling everyone a fool - just those who buy at a whim regardless of price, cost, gains, and other available options. Aka. fanboys.

Lastly, this is why I challenge anyone to have a FAIR and honest comparison between long tube and the racing beat setup and prove me wrong. Numbers that will blow it out of the water? Seriously doubtful and I'll put money on it. 1-5 hp gain max from an honest comparable setup and I'll be shocked if it's even that

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Um, we still have no overlap, and we still don't have any header gains from overlap based physics. That hasn't changed. I don't know why you think it has, or why you think we think it has. Charles is leveraging the long collector concept which as always been known to be the best option, he is just taking it to an extreme that has not previously been attempted due to the space limitations of having to end at the stock header point. He is ignoring that requirement and instead mating the set up at the catback flange. We all know the concepts he is leveraging, and our opinions of the concepts involved are still the same as they always have been. The only "hype" is that finally someone who knows wtf they are doing is taking it where it has long since needed to go, and we are excited to see the results. That's it. So no, things have not changed with the hype for us. Perhaps they have for you?

So far, not a single penny has been spent on this by anyone replying currently. So your statement is groundless. They are all waiting for that cost, the gains, etc... Exactly as you claim they should. You are just also claiming that they are fools for doing so, while saying that they are fools if they don't do so. It's a circular logic that is puzzling at best.

Actually, it sounds like you are refusing to put your money on anything at all

BlackStealth

iTrader: (3)

Umm, I never said there was gains to be had from no overlap. My point was that there was argument way back in the day that headers are useless because of that very fact and therefore aftermarket headers are useless altogether.

The hype, that I'm referring to, is the incessant drooling and mindless circle jerking that people have over a new product - when I have serious doubts of it's gains in that regard. Especially when there are readily available products already with what I'm willing to bet have similar hp values. Furthermore, I'm calling people fools, because there have been members and owners of these cars who claim they will purchase regardless. Those are the fools I speak of.

How does that sound like I'm refusing to put my money down?? uhhhh...

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

"Back in the day", headers were only thought of as being useful for overlap dynamics, and without overlap, those headers were indeed useless. Some of the high funded race teams figured out an alternate concept that did produce gains, and at one point Speedsource was willing to sell their complete race exhaust to the public for $2,800ish. Very few takers because they wouldn't publish the gains, or advertise the fact that they would sell it. Still, it was a different concept that worked from the overlap concept that doesn't. None of that has changed since.

You have stated that the gains will be 1-5hp, and that 2k for 1-5 hp is foolish. So yeah, it sounds like you won't be buying one according to your own logic.

I have seen only one person seriously comment about buying one regardless of cost, and he has a funded race team. Hardly foolish. There have been other random comments that have been mostly jokes, some sarcasm, that you seem to take seriously.

Feel free to have all the doubts you want, discount that it will ever come out, disbelieve numbers when they are posted, complain about the price when it's posted, etc...

... but you don't have grounds for the personal hostility you have been leveraging on other members here. THAT is what has got people against you right now. It's not appreciated, even if it isn't intended.

pdxhak

iTrader: (2)

I still do not get why you feel the need to troll (educate the masses). It is not your money. You do not believe there will be anything worth while here. So why waste your time in this thread?

BlackStealth

iTrader: (3)

Personally I don't care if people don't like what I say - it's logical and most people aren't informed that current exhaust setups that are available today, will most likely produce similar results. It's about weighing your options and I don't want people to get the impression that when the numbers are released, you think it's some sort of god-send.

Then again, all speculation. However, talk to anyone who knows what long tubes actually gain on rotary engines - including the older gen's and then look at how the Rx8 is built. Pretty sure you won't get the magical numbers you hope for versus a typical header/midpipe combo that's readily available now. Cheers!

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Using Racing Beat's numbers is highly suspect BTW. For a variety of reasons. Do some digging and you can find out why. Namely in the inability of anyone to match that high number, only the low number. They are generally a reputable company, but there is a reason why almost no one bothers with it any more. It never met the claims made. Will BHR's be the same way? Possibly. I suspect it will meet those claims though.

And if you bother to think about how the single most important design change between the older RX-7 is from the RX-8's engine, you will realize that those prior RX-7 designs have no bearing on this design. In fact, the single most important design change is incoporated into the engine designation itself. Side vs port, 2 ports vs 4 with 2 siamezed into 1 for 3 effectively. That isn't a trivial difference when it comes to exhaust design. The RX-7s could already dump as much exhaust out as they wanted to, the exhaust ports weren't a restriction. The RX-8 can't dump exhaust out easily at all, and the exhaust ports ARE a restriction. Huge implications in designing a proper exhaust.

Yet another arguement you have that doesn't actually have any basis in reality.

We ARE being realistic in looking for gains, discussing pricing, and waiting for results. You aren't being realistic in your attempts to discount something that isn't even published. Discount it if you wish, but please at least use something realistic that has something to back it up. Cherries are not tomatoes because of oranges. It doesn't work that way.

pdxhak

iTrader: (2)

blackstealth - In addition to what RIWWP stated, many of us have been here a long time discussing headers and exhausts. Many of us have put up the money to test performance parts with dyno+tuning.

BlackStealth

iTrader: (3)

Those numbers were based on an independent magazine and not racing beats numbers. Furthermore, I still think Racing beats numbers are fairly reliable when it comes to gains.

Okay again, we are discussing long tubes, versus a regular tubed header design. The difference between the two will NOT gain you a significant amount at all. I understand the dynamics in flow and engine design are different between the cars, but in comparing a short tube versus a long tube on an rx7 and the gains that can be had from overlap and collector etc where it matters more so, the gains are about 1.5hp or so.

An Rx8 exhaust just wont have that much to be gained from long tubes - even if the design of the side port exhaust is more restrictive. Again, I need to stress this is in comparison to an existing tubular header setup.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

An independant magazine is even more suspect. Racing Beat can at least build their own engines and make sure the engines they have are running right. Independant magazines still don't really understand how sick most RX-8s are, so their testing can easily be hugely flawed as a result. Still, that doesn't change the fact that the gains have not been replicated in real life by members on the forum, so the RB header just isn't advocated by anyone.

You may be right. I suspect Charles has proven results to the contrary. He has the reputation he does for a reason, and he wouldn't make the claims he does without something to back it up. Will he undermind all of that and send his reputation into a ditch? Possibly. You think he will. I think he is far smarter than that, and really did find something. Maybe what he found was never properly tested on an RX-7? Maybe what he found doesn't work on an RX-7? Both are possible.

Saying something isn't possible because you haven't seen someone do it isn't very realistic. Even the current 'caps' of power from turbocharging are solveable, just no one has done it yet. I believe a 600-700whp Renesis is very possible, it will just take more R+D money than anyone cares to throw at it to solve the side/corner seal heat problem. Same thing here. Just because no one made more than a 1.5hp gain on long tubes with the RX-7 doesn't mean that is the same cap for the RX-8 when someone decides to put the effort, money, and thought into figuring it out.

Be skeptical if you wish, but if you are writing it off before it is even released, contrary to BHR's reputation, that's pretty short sighted.

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

Haters gonna hate.
Spending several thousand dollars on something I truly love is my decision.
Some judgemental interwebz know-it-all troll won't sway me one way or the other.
It's no different than spending several thousand dollars on a sparkly hunk of carbon for a woman, or a watch for a man if it makes her/him happy.
The only person whose opinion matters is my wife, & if she thinks I should spend it instead on a lavish vacation as we like to do, then so be it.
A week's worth of making her happy, vs. my being happy everytime I drive my 8, either way, it's a win for me.