rx8daniel

Thanks Maurice! I'll wait patiently for mine. I'm not in a rush to build my grounding kit either as I don't drive it much in the winter. If you require a deposit via Paypal prior to a particular date, please post that.

canzoomer

Since you are now advertising on our forum, Maniac, where should I send the bill for the space and ads?

davefzr

Hey Canzoomer, thankx for posting on this forum and relinquishing your valuable dyno sheet for someone to post. This will definitely curb any criticism from here out I think. I think all of this just stemmed from peoples anticipation of the product and not seeing any posts from you. It gets people wayyy too anxious(myself included).. so thankx!

David...

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Well, since I am not selling anything, I'd say straight into your fireplace.

canzoomer

To quote you:
"If you prefer, I can get it all for you and send it over."

????

A bit impolite considering the setting.

As for the fireplace, I will ignore that remark.

Good day.

QuantumTheory08

CZ: typically I don't speak up about criticism among members (bashing) on the forums; it can be such a waste.

..my two cents.

1.) The best way to win an argument is to not have one.

2.) Don't forum chat with Maniac anymore and lower yourself to his level; I consider his comments to you insulting.

If he's a real man, he'd apologize to you - because someone else (me) thought he was insulting.

...let's see what happens - either way, you win!

-jcs-

kristopher_d

I think people are doing their forum cruising while way too tired. Tempers are short and there's a lot of childishness. Beleive me, I understand. I use the forum to wind down before retiring for the evening my self. Actually, that may be why I don't get to sleep very easily. Just remember, it's usually not personal. When it seems personal, take a break and come back later. You'll usually read the post in a completely different light after a few hours of sleep.

Just a general thought, not a responce to anything in particular. I seem to ask myself frequently: "Where'd all the flame come from."

QuantumTheory08

...k_d....you could be right.

Speed-ER doc

Seems to me that the people who would be interested in the Greddy unit are not likely to be interested in the CZ unit and vice versa.

Most of us are not that mechanically inclined, and would prefer a low-hassle, plug in, non-adjustable, stock-appearing, easily removable unit that we don't have to mess with and can trust not to damage our engine (the CZ unit).

A few may wish to deal with stripping wires and fine-tuning fuel mix parameters at the risk of engine damage, and those may prefer the Greddy unit.

Other than the end results, they appear to be non-competitors.

I noticed that although CZ contributed advice to Maniac's thread, he did NOT advertise or promote his unit on Maniac's thread.

This is not the proper thread to promote another product IMO, even if it seems to appeal to a slightly different market.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Wow, what a load of knee-jerk ad hominem reactions.

I am selling NOTHING.
I have NO commercial interest in the Greddy unit or anything similar. Nor do I have any aspirations for such.
I have offered nothing but support for Maurice's system and I highly suggest anyone who is interested in what it does to buy one.
I am NOT attempting to detract from Maurice's sales.

However, I will not suggest the device that Maurice is selling is the only course one can follow for the same result and I will not roll over and bow out of this forum just because it has "Canzoomer's Place" at the top of it.
It is public to all members of the RX-8 forum and this thread exists here for the very purpose that it has succeeded in - discussion of the Stage 1 box and its ramifications. If it is a real advertising forum, it should not be open to posting.

Maurice suggested that he should bill me for advertising in his forum.
I have nothing to advertise, I will receive no financial benefit and, as he must realize, there is no "politeness" in business.

I suggest that Maurice not ignore my "fireplace" comment. It wasn't in jest, nor was it meant to be light-hearted.

As long as I am not the "competition", I feel I have an obligation to point out the things I have done so far and until Maurice would like to compensate me as a spokesman for his product, I will continue to point out the options and I will do so at my discretion.

QuantumTheory08

Proverbs 15:1

"a soft answer turneth away wrath; but grevious words stir up anger."

Greddy has not set up a vendor site on this forum at this point.

Canzoomer has a vendor site on the forum this at this point.

Maniac states he has numbers and info on how to use the Greddy unit, but does not have a vendor site at this time.

Sometimes, people need recognition for their efforts:

.....Good job to both Canzoomer and Maniac for their hard work an effort with the RX-8!

BRx8

reading back to what Maniac previously posted, i don't believe he was trying to sell anything at all but offering help to those that would like to pursue another course of action...i don't think he even mentioned compensation for his maps...i think we need to give BOTH CZ and Maniac a break cuz this tension is clearly going nowhere, especially when it's just a slight misunderstanding...

i agree with Speed-ER Doc above...i'm one of those ppl =P i'm not as mechanically inclined on cars as i am with computers and i'd much rather buy a preexisting piggyback unit than one i program myself, until, of course, i learn how to do it myself...the best i can do is use CZ's for now continually read up on the subject...maybe my next car i'll buy a fully programmable one, who knows...right now, i just want to break the rear tires lose at 5k!

RX8 fever

Maniac.
Thanks for your e-manage postings. I learned a lot from your work. I also think that you weren't trying to sell anything.
Just trying to help with another modality that is /or will be available to us.

Speed-ER doc

I'm sure we all appreciate the availability of other solutions to our problems/desires, and we are equally appreciative of Maniac's testing and postings.

I personally am gled to see reproducible results with similar mods.

All I said was this is not the proper thread to promote a competitor's product.

Isn't that obvious? It should be. This is Canzoomer's place. Might as well go to his house and hit on his wife while you're at it.

No offense, I just like analogies.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Better analogy:

You walk into the local Sharper Image store (or Brookstone or similar) and you hear a customer telling other customers that the only place they can buy alkaline AA batteries for that cool shiatsu massager is there in the store - AA battteries from anywhere else wont work.
Would you stand for that?
I wouldn't.

shift_zoom8

But Canzoomer never told us that we don't have a choice.

If you go into Sharper Image, you can direct customers to other vendors or sources that are NOT YOUR OWN. Usually, when you know a customer is getting ripped off or given inaccurate information and you want to play Good Sumaritan, you wait for an opportune moment, like when the salesperson is away for a minute. If you want to direct the customer to yourself, you do as before AND you whisper real quietly.

Problem is, you can't whisper in here. Maybe possibly (it's debatable) you could mention alternatives or options to others in Canzoomer's Place that are NOT YOUR OWN. For example, bringing up E-Manage might possibly be ok. But you can't direct others TO YOURSELF in Canzoomer's Place.

shift_zoom8

I have a better analogy.

Canzoomer = ECU

Maniac = piggyback ECU

Maniac rides Canzoomer's coattails, manipulating and redirecting certain bits of information to produce desired effect.

Fundamental difference: Canzoomer's Stage 1 piggyback successfully "tricks" ECU. Maniac is unsuccessful in "tricking" Canzoomer.

Speed-ER doc

Have you ordered yet shift-zoom8? And thanks for the backup. I like your reasoning, at least in this thread.

Gord96BRG

Nah, better analogy:

You walk into the local coffee shop where a group of regulars meets daily to discuss batteries, and you discuss the merits of Energizer vs. Duracell batteries (Canzoomer ECU mod vs. e-manage, Racing Beat, Yawpower, etc). No problem with that at all - but THAT coffee shop is the Mazdaspeed/Aftermarket Performance section of the forum (or The Tech Garage).

You walk into the local Everready store and start debating with the staff and customers that the Duracell batteries are better - that's not great at all, and that's the equivalent of the concern of what's going on here (IF a vendor of an alternate solution were doing that).

Regards,
Gordon

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

No, Gord96BRG did.




Exactly what I was pointing out in the posts above. I have nothing to sell and no vested interest in any product.


One would whisper only if one is a coward. I would give such information in such a way that the person offering such misinformation would be aware of my redirection as well.
That was my point to Gord96BRG. I have said nothing to Maurice to suggest his product isn't what it is claimed to be.
I will say it again:
THE STAGE ONE MOD FROM CANZOOMER IS EXACTLY WHAT MANY, IF NOT MOST PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM WANT FOR RETREIVING THE "LOST" 20 HP ON THE RX-8.


I never directed anyone to myself because I HAVE NOTHING TO SELL.
I simply offered to help anyone who might be interested in the benefits of the E-Manage system to acquire one because I have already ordered the stuff for myself and I know what to order to reproduce the results. Greddy is not helpful in this regard. I offered this at no charge because, once again, I HAVE NOTHING TO SELL.
I am not in the tuning business.


This is incorrect. Both systems are piggyback.

This is actually an interesting statement. Mostly, I think, because I don't understand it. Which information did I redirect or manipulate? I am over 3000 miles from Maurice, so coercion is not likely.

I don't quite see what that meant either, semantically, logically or factually.
Please direct any further comments to my PM so we don't bother anyone else with this.

canzoomer

I agree with you quite a bit.

The only areas that I feel uncomfortable with are:
1) If you do this, provide instructions on how to install it, and people go out and do it "homebrewed" there ARE going to be a few people who do considerable damage to their cars.

A classic example is the thread where info is given on re-connecting the fog lights to work independently of the headlights.

We have already seen 3 or 4 cases where people did not pay close enough attantion, and popped a fuse because they used the wrong wire, or shorted wires out. In those cases the damage was merely a fuse.

If you cut and connect the wrong wires in the ECU harness you create considerably higher levels of risk. In quite a few instances people could end up frying their ECU. That is a $1,000 or higher "OOPS".

2) We pay for this forum.
I politely mentioned that if you post on it how to do roughly the same thing as what we are selling, it might not be taken as a friendly gesture.
The work we did , the commitments we made, and the raw dollars and time we invested started with a process like you followed, but on a much greater scale, and over a longer time period.
along the way we too found the Greddy could tune this car. However it is NOT perfect, it does not work out of the box properly in some aspects, and we realized that we had to have a board with some customization for the RX-8 to do the job completely.

In return we have to make a few dollars to pay for this investment.

Telling people how they can "home brew" the same thing can only erode our efforts to some degree.

Sometimes we make the choice to do a public disclosure of a method like this ourselves.
A typical example is where I posted the info on how to build your own ground cable set. We sell the original Mazda sets, yet made the decision to post the info.

The reasons we used to make this decision are similar to what I mention above:
Doing it badly will not cause damage.
The parts are readily available off the shelf.

Also the price of the Mazda set is a bit astronomical, in my opinion. We still get sales on those grounding kits however, as not everyone has the skills, tools, time, and parts sources for building their own.
Hey Maniac. I suggest you lighten up a bit.
MY comment was meant lightly, and just a little prod to remind you that you have walked into ##MY## place and threw around some comments that ##COULD## be taken badly by an individual who is thinner skinned than me.

I also tried to help you with your project by contributing info as needed.

I am a moderator on these forums. You might notice that I have chosen to leave your postings intact. No edits, no removed messages, no posting bans..
I believe very strongly in free speech.
I also believe very strongly in good manners.

I DO have to point out that Greddy do NOT provide their e-tune software to end users, and this is only provided to their dealer/tuners.
While I know pirated copies of it are floating around, remember that there are real reasons why Greddy choose to make this software restricted.

If you are going to post a "how to" on my ( or any other) forum on doing something that involves a significant level of risk of damage, then I suggest you should first post some details pointing this out, and maybe should clear the postings with the list moderator first..

We value the work you have done, and the info you posted here.
As you mention the power gains and the usefulness of this are very real.
A few people had skeptically posted earlier that they felt that one could not gain significant power throught re-tuning.
You have proven our point quite clearly that the gains ARE available through re-tuning.
This is independant verification of our process and we appreciate it.

It is a lot better than some of the absolutely bullshit claims we have already seen about exhaust and intake systems posted various places.

Even MazdaSpeed make no power claims about their cat-back exhaust. They say it sounds good, but that it makes no significant change in power.
Others have done engine dyno tests with wide open pipes, and on a stock tuned engine saw only a 5HP gain.

The only way one is going to see any significant gains with bolt-on parts is by also installing something that will properly tune the engine to proper fuel/air ratios.
Otherwise the increases in air flow will simply cause the ECU to dump in even MORE fuel, which is the WORST thing thatcould be done!!

We, and others, have tested our unit and made clearly noticeable gains in power, and in useful power. On cars with improved exhausts they make even more noticeable and useful power.
You have provided clear and useful comments and tests.
For us, for the other RX-8 owners, and for those who are considering buying an RX-8 that is valuable.

Thanks!

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Thank you for your understanding, kind words and, most importantly, your incredible effort in this massive undertaking.

I certainly would have had to work much harder to achieve what I did without your help and insight.

As far as "lightening up", I hope you understand that I view this as entertainment.
I enjoy the conflict and also derive some sick satisfaction in the illogical and angry posts from some of the other members of this thread.:p

I PM'ed Omicron to see about having this thread just plain closed (or perhaps moved to the lounge) as it is pretty counterproductive and probably isn't doing anyone any good being here in your forum area.

With regard to damaging one's vehicle, I think everyone has indicated that you do such modifications at your own risk.
I know that is clear in my E-Manage threads and I assume you will make the same point with regard to your box as well.

Failure to follow instructions clearly or realize one's own limitations is an important part of Darwin's theories I suspect.

Thanks again.

shift_zoom8

I haven't ordered yet. I'm waiting to hear more data, both dynos and buyers' comments.

I'll most likely go with Canzoomer's in 6 months or so. I don't know a thing about programming my own maps. LOL. Plus, for some reason, I trust Canzoomer's general competence in whatever he does. I don't know for sure, but I've met individuals whom I think Canzoomer is similar to, and it wouldn't matter if they were competing against Racing Beat or GREDDY or whatever, their ability and general competence would still be at the highest level.

Omicron

Ok everyone, that's enough please. Let's discontinue this back and forth and just discuss the products at hand. If it continues, this thread WILL be deleted. Thanks.

canzoomer

First off, thanks for the friendly and constructive answer!

Secondly, I fully agree with the Darwin's theory comments, BUT:
When we SELL a product we have to assume some of the responsibility.
One of the big reasons I was stressed as that if you are posting this on my forums, there might be some implication that we endorse this.
We don't
We sell a product. It has been tested thoroughly to be safe for use.
Anything else is TOTALLY at your own risk!

For example if we miswired one of our units, and it made the ECU in sombodies car go "Phut" then we would pay for it.

If they do it themselves, however, I would probably restrain form making any comments, and simply think "Hmm, I warned the silly bastard!"

As the proud owner of a set of fried coil packs, I have danced with Darwin a bit myself..

BTW, read your metering of the ignition pulse voltages.
A hint: Check some more..

Especially at higher rpm, and check temperatures of coils, etc..

So, do people mind if I close this thread now?