Dyno Results at Kaizen
10-07-2011, 11:04 AM
#26
悪魔のR
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Food for thought, reading up on a few other forums, DynoDynamics usually reads very low. However..what's interesting is that they usually read 40HP low. If that's the case, then this dyno chart may be correct because 40HP + 177HP = 217 RWHP, which is right about where I was expecting to be.
My friend is trying to explain to me that, regardless of settings you put into the dyno computer.. a dyno is a dyno and it measures the power/force applied onto the roller and outputs a number. It doesn't care if you put in 12 cylinder or if you put in 2 cylinder, that it will always read the same and it's just for database information. *shrug* I don't know how true that is either, which is why I'd like to have someone who runs dynos chime in on this.
My friend is trying to explain to me that, regardless of settings you put into the dyno computer.. a dyno is a dyno and it measures the power/force applied onto the roller and outputs a number. It doesn't care if you put in 12 cylinder or if you put in 2 cylinder, that it will always read the same and it's just for database information. *shrug* I don't know how true that is either, which is why I'd like to have someone who runs dynos chime in on this.
10-07-2011, 11:29 AM
#28
悪魔のR
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No worries WCS. Like I said, I'm basically posting for information gathering (and I suck at articulating my initial thoughts). If I truly, 100% am at 177 WHP, just like all these other RX-8's apparently, regardless of mods, then so be it.
I just find it VERY hard to believe that regardless of mods AND engine health, that many RX-8's dyno right about the same numbers. I find it hard to believe that an engine that is rated for 232 HP stock, is losing that much power in the drivetrain.
If lets just say, my engine really was at the stock rated 232HP, even with all my mods... You mean to tell me that I'm losing 55HP from the engine to the rear wheels? Typical AWD drivetrain loss is 17%-25% and RWD typical loss is 10%-18%.
So with all these mods to the engine only, let's say my engine is only outputting 260 to the flywheel. I think that's safe to say my mods should AT LEAST be doing that, right? That's 110HP loss through the drivetrain. Starting to see my point?
This is why I'm trying to understand dyno settings, correction factors, what other people's "magic" is, things like that. If those numbers are true, then so be it, but it doesn't make sense.
I just find it VERY hard to believe that regardless of mods AND engine health, that many RX-8's dyno right about the same numbers. I find it hard to believe that an engine that is rated for 232 HP stock, is losing that much power in the drivetrain.
If lets just say, my engine really was at the stock rated 232HP, even with all my mods... You mean to tell me that I'm losing 55HP from the engine to the rear wheels? Typical AWD drivetrain loss is 17%-25% and RWD typical loss is 10%-18%.
So with all these mods to the engine only, let's say my engine is only outputting 260 to the flywheel. I think that's safe to say my mods should AT LEAST be doing that, right? That's 110HP loss through the drivetrain. Starting to see my point?
This is why I'm trying to understand dyno settings, correction factors, what other people's "magic" is, things like that. If those numbers are true, then so be it, but it doesn't make sense.
10-07-2011, 11:57 AM
#29
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My friend is trying to explain to me that, regardless of settings you put into the dyno computer.. a dyno is a dyno and it measures the power/force applied onto the roller and outputs a number. It doesn't care if you put in 12 cylinder or if you put in 2 cylinder, that it will always read the same and it's just for database information. *shrug* I don't know how true that is either, which is why I'd like to have someone who runs dynos chime in on this.
HOWEVER.
There are different dynos out there, that are acknowledged to generate different readings. Why is this? At some level, a dyno ISN'T just a dyno. How it's doing the measuring, what it's actually using to calculate, the mathematics behind that calculation...they change. They all attempt to get to a specific point, but the acknowledged fact is, none of them are 100% true measurements.
Every single dyno has a flaw of one type or another, and is only "perfect" under certain set circumstances. The farther you are from that, the wider of a variance you will have.
There is also OBVIOUSLY ways of adjusting the numbers, the settings, etc...
My gut tells me that it's not that the dynos are "dynoing low" or "high" or "off". I'm thinking it's more of side-effect in nature, from something that makes a rotary a rotary. Such as a flaw in the mathematics that is creating a wider variance the longer the pull is run (our pulls are far longer than most) or it's "capping" the results somehow, by the interaction between the drum and the signals where it starts being unable to see the force, etc... several of the RX-8 dynos at Lime Rock in May had "curves" that looked like a sine wave when graphed MPH against RPM. Including mine. Does that make sense? No. Is it the source of the issue? I have no idea.
But I said I wouldn't get into it, and I failed
The quick and obvious arguement back that 99.5% of people will give will be "dude! The RX-8 is just slow! It is what it is!" without paying attention to the sheer volume of coincidences that defies the reality and logic of what we know to be true.
For anyone who disagrees: go find an N/A RX-8 dyno chart that was NOT done by Mazdamaniac OR a rotary specific shop that produces 180whp or more. If you can produce one, I will have several of my questions and theories answered. I haven't found one though.
EVERY N/A RX-8 dyno I can find that is 180whp or higher was done by Mazdamaniac or a shop that is knowledgable about the rotary.
What is different? I have no idea at all.
But SOMETHING is.
(I am not saying MM or the rotary shops are fudging their numbers up, because their numbers look right, they move correctly based on engine issues, ignition issues, known power mods, etc... All of these other ones shift the low RPM curve around, but land at the same friggen point up high. I think these other shops are doing something wrong out of ignorance)
10-07-2011, 12:15 PM
#30
well we've been through all this before which is why he may not be bothering to acknowledge a discussion on it, unless you are claiming that he, I, and others are being dishonest
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/diy-how-dyno-rx8-132083/page4/
a dyno is just like any other tool, the outcome of it's use can be impacted by the configuration and operation of it. In the end it is just a bunch of numbers whose reference point is always in question.
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/diy-how-dyno-rx8-132083/page4/
a dyno is just like any other tool, the outcome of it's use can be impacted by the configuration and operation of it. In the end it is just a bunch of numbers whose reference point is always in question.
10-07-2011, 12:31 PM
#31
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Team,
I 100% agree with you. A dyno is just a tool.
Just like a wrench, a gauge, or an ECU. What you do with it is the only thing that truly matters.
Like any gauge, I 100% agree that it's only benefit is when it's comparing something to what it used to be like.
Just like an analog water temp gauge can have it's printed paper background "off", a dyno can also be "off".
I'm not trying to raise any of the age old arguments at all. This isn't what my post was targeted at. I would actually say (and actually did say in the last post) that you are the only people doing it RIGHT.
I think these other random shops are doing something wrong. And no, I don't mean something like leaving the ABS fuse in or out or any other urban myths.
Edit: A water gauge, even if calibrated correctly, can be hooked up to the wrong part of the cooling system and result in what it's telling you to be completely useless garbage. If you handed someone a wrench to remove a bolt, and they started cranking on the bolt the wrong direction, what would you question? The tool or the person using it? That's all I'm doing here. A wrench can only be used "wrong" in 1 way. A dyno is far more complicated.
Even ignoring the mechanical components for a second, dyno's use software and code. What if there is a logical error in the code that is causing this? For example (and I know it's not this), what if the sampling table hits a memory limit and stops recording at a certain number of records, and RX-8s surpass that where piston engines don't (we have 2-3k more RPM on a pull), 'halting' the data too early? I know it isn't this, but it's an example of how everything is "right" for some cars but not right for others, and no one could see the difference. What if the correction factor doesn't scale as accurately as it should, and the wider the RPM range the more inaccurate it gets? etc...
All I'm asking is why do you, Jeff, etc... get the bolt off when you apply the wrench to it, but these people do not?
I 100% agree with you. A dyno is just a tool.
Just like a wrench, a gauge, or an ECU. What you do with it is the only thing that truly matters.
Like any gauge, I 100% agree that it's only benefit is when it's comparing something to what it used to be like.
Just like an analog water temp gauge can have it's printed paper background "off", a dyno can also be "off".
I'm not trying to raise any of the age old arguments at all. This isn't what my post was targeted at. I would actually say (and actually did say in the last post) that you are the only people doing it RIGHT.
I think these other random shops are doing something wrong. And no, I don't mean something like leaving the ABS fuse in or out or any other urban myths.
Edit: A water gauge, even if calibrated correctly, can be hooked up to the wrong part of the cooling system and result in what it's telling you to be completely useless garbage. If you handed someone a wrench to remove a bolt, and they started cranking on the bolt the wrong direction, what would you question? The tool or the person using it? That's all I'm doing here. A wrench can only be used "wrong" in 1 way. A dyno is far more complicated.
Even ignoring the mechanical components for a second, dyno's use software and code. What if there is a logical error in the code that is causing this? For example (and I know it's not this), what if the sampling table hits a memory limit and stops recording at a certain number of records, and RX-8s surpass that where piston engines don't (we have 2-3k more RPM on a pull), 'halting' the data too early? I know it isn't this, but it's an example of how everything is "right" for some cars but not right for others, and no one could see the difference. What if the correction factor doesn't scale as accurately as it should, and the wider the RPM range the more inaccurate it gets? etc...
All I'm asking is why do you, Jeff, etc... get the bolt off when you apply the wrench to it, but these people do not?
Last edited by RIWWP; 10-07-2011 at 01:00 PM.
10-07-2011, 12:38 PM
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No worries WCS. Like I said, I'm basically posting for information gathering (and I suck at articulating my initial thoughts). If I truly, 100% am at 177 WHP, just like all these other RX-8's apparently, regardless of mods, then so be it.
I just find it VERY hard to believe that regardless of mods AND engine health, that many RX-8's dyno right about the same numbers. I find it hard to believe that an engine that is rated for 232 HP stock, is losing that much power in the drivetrain.
If lets just say, my engine really was at the stock rated 232HP, even with all my mods... You mean to tell me that I'm losing 55HP from the engine to the rear wheels? Typical AWD drivetrain loss is 17%-25% and RWD typical loss is 10%-18%.
So with all these mods to the engine only, let's say my engine is only outputting 260 to the flywheel. I think that's safe to say my mods should AT LEAST be doing that, right? That's 110HP loss through the drivetrain. Starting to see my point?
This is why I'm trying to understand dyno settings, correction factors, what other people's "magic" is, things like that. If those numbers are true, then so be it, but it doesn't make sense.
I just find it VERY hard to believe that regardless of mods AND engine health, that many RX-8's dyno right about the same numbers. I find it hard to believe that an engine that is rated for 232 HP stock, is losing that much power in the drivetrain.
If lets just say, my engine really was at the stock rated 232HP, even with all my mods... You mean to tell me that I'm losing 55HP from the engine to the rear wheels? Typical AWD drivetrain loss is 17%-25% and RWD typical loss is 10%-18%.
So with all these mods to the engine only, let's say my engine is only outputting 260 to the flywheel. I think that's safe to say my mods should AT LEAST be doing that, right? That's 110HP loss through the drivetrain. Starting to see my point?
This is why I'm trying to understand dyno settings, correction factors, what other people's "magic" is, things like that. If those numbers are true, then so be it, but it doesn't make sense.
Older Integras hondas also had 25% drivetrain loss.
You dafenetly not any more then 190 whp with your mods
10-07-2011, 02:02 PM
#34
What about MAF numbers? Given that engine is healthy, it should correspond pretty well with power...
Dyno Dynamics can be very good in hands of competent people, but all its inertia settings, ramp rates etc. can render them as very expensive printer...
Forget percentage numbers as some guidelines for drivetrain losses. 50+HP worth of heat would destroy tranny and diff in no time. Main loss is tire itself and its deformation. If you want consistent reading, do everything on dynapack as all roller dynos will always have more variables....
Dyno Dynamics can be very good in hands of competent people, but all its inertia settings, ramp rates etc. can render them as very expensive printer...
Forget percentage numbers as some guidelines for drivetrain losses. 50+HP worth of heat would destroy tranny and diff in no time. Main loss is tire itself and its deformation. If you want consistent reading, do everything on dynapack as all roller dynos will always have more variables....
10-07-2011, 02:14 PM
#36
any chance that it could be reporting in kW for some reason?
160kW = 214 hp (217 Metric HP)
That would also account for like 10% drive train loss from flywheel...
I have no clue. Just bouncing out ideas. There has to be a reason for what's going on (Aside from the fact that chassis dynos are grossly inaccurate)
160kW = 214 hp (217 Metric HP)
That would also account for like 10% drive train loss from flywheel...
I have no clue. Just bouncing out ideas. There has to be a reason for what's going on (Aside from the fact that chassis dynos are grossly inaccurate)
Last edited by reddozen; 10-07-2011 at 02:17 PM.
10-07-2011, 02:31 PM
#37
悪魔のR
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I suppose that makes sense, thanks Ray. I guess, does the torque curve look decent then? BTW, as you should know by now... I don't have DSC. :P
Good to know about the 33HP, that's interesting.
And yes, as Mike said, basically 230G's from the MAF at 8,550 RPM just about.
EDIT: This still however doesn't explain why so many RX-8's get retardedly low numbers and what other people such as Jeff, Ray and Team are doing when dynoing their cars...
Good to know about the 33HP, that's interesting.
And yes, as Mike said, basically 230G's from the MAF at 8,550 RPM just about.
EDIT: This still however doesn't explain why so many RX-8's get retardedly low numbers and what other people such as Jeff, Ray and Team are doing when dynoing their cars...
Last edited by Zelse; 10-07-2011 at 03:14 PM.
10-07-2011, 03:19 PM
#38
That number will also vary depending on the dyno. It is not a constant and changes based on load and rpm across the pull (as will dyno correction numbers). Using a specific number or percentage only adds error at some point of the comparison.
A MAF is just like a Dyno. The WOT numbers can be just as suspect. Except in this case you can probably assume that MM uses the same technique across the board. He has posted 240 g/s for a strong stock engine @ 68 degF intake temp previously so that is at least one potential reference point for you. You still have to be careful with these because once again the correlation is not constant. You can pull the same MAF number at the HP peak as at 9800 rpm, but the engine won't be generating anywhere near the same output force.
sorry, there are no easy answers, you either get a number that makes you go
or 
ps: I haven't posted a dyno in almost 4 years, kind of surprised that my name keeps getting mentioned
.
A MAF is just like a Dyno. The WOT numbers can be just as suspect. Except in this case you can probably assume that MM uses the same technique across the board. He has posted 240 g/s for a strong stock engine @ 68 degF intake temp previously so that is at least one potential reference point for you. You still have to be careful with these because once again the correlation is not constant. You can pull the same MAF number at the HP peak as at 9800 rpm, but the engine won't be generating anywhere near the same output force.
sorry, there are no easy answers, you either get a number that makes you go
or ps: I haven't posted a dyno in almost 4 years, kind of surprised that my name keeps getting mentioned
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 10-07-2011 at 03:22 PM.
10-07-2011, 04:02 PM
#40
we're all getting our butts whooped, lol
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multimedia-photo-gallery-6/245wph-w-o-fi-223936/
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multimedia-photo-gallery-6/245wph-w-o-fi-223936/
10-07-2011, 09:58 PM
#45
People, this thread is not a depository for your dyno graphs
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=8p
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=8p
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