rotarygod

I don't believe for a second that a vendor would not market a product based on what the attitude is on one of many internet forums. That's a load of crap. What I will believe is that the companies that intend to market bs products have realized that we will see right through them and therefore they aren't going to waste their time on people who won't buy it. If a product works, it works. Period. If it doesn't work as advertised I'm going to flame them for it. Is that too much to ask? When a manufacturer gets mad at what one or a few people said about their product, it's probably because they didn't want the truth exposed.

I have no problem with people developing good products for the car. I'd rather see only a limited selection of parts that actually work good than a whole selection of parts that don't work. There are alot of crap businesses out there and of course they'll be mad when people expose them.

As far as intakes go, K&N is a good company. I won't insult them from that standpoint. The problem is that they are trying to improve a good design with a not good one. They really do have a "tube on a stick". Some cars benefit greatly from this simple type of intake. The Mazda 6 is a great example. Where K&N messed up on this car is because they just slapped a big filter on a tube and marketed it. I will give them credit for paying attention to what people say about it. Later on they offered a heat shield. It's getting better. The big problem is still with the filter. The stock airbox has a nice bell radius inlet for smooth airflow. The K&N filter did not have this. The bell radius can improve flow by up to 20%. Their origingal large filter also blocks airflow from entering into the engine bay from the stock VFAD inlet location since it sits right up in front of it. This means that although they have a heat shield, most of the air is still coming in around the shield from the engine bay. It's still hot air and it's still a bad design. Now they've listened and are developing a new kit that allows more airflow from the stock inlet location as well as smoothening out airflow with a bell radius. It's about time. They've already made alot of money from an inferior noisemaker but now those people will have to go back and buy it all over again. Making money twice. They only have to do one more thing to make the kit truly good and that is to dump the shield and use a complete closed in box. Of course if they did that it would then be called the Racing Beat intake. Now that we have a real good design, who's to say it will give much more power over the stock airbox? What if it does flow better on a flowbench? So what? What if both flow numbers meet the flow capability of the engine? One can't necessarily work better than the other at this point.

This is why I slam the aftermarket pretty hard. There are too many people that build a crap guesswork product, make claims, make money, while the comsumer is the person who really lost out. Sometimes a company just messed up but at other times a company deliberately takes advantage of the less educated. It's the honest people with the honest products that do what they are supposed to that I support.

As far as I'm concerned, if anything I've ever said ended up discouraging a company from making a product for these cars, I've done my duty. It would have been an inferior product that wasn't worthy of being used. Any company who's worried about something I or others say about them, only cares because they have something to hide.

Since there are more bad companies than good, it is only prudent to assume all are bad until proven worthy. Why risk it? This isn't a court system but we are the judges. It's only the guilty who are nervous.

Speed Racer

I agree completely that the original Typhoon intake has issues and it appears that they didn't put much time or effort into designing it. I also agree that pointing out the pros/cons of a product is also necessary as it gives people some honest feed back about a product.

This redesign looks like a step in the right direction but we won't know how it performs until someone has tried it on their car. All I'm saying is that the reviews should come after someone has actually tried it and they can substantiate their claims be it positive or negative.

bureau13

That doesn't make sense at all. The "hostile" people wouldn't be whining about a lack of proper design, functionality, etc if they were "only interested in trendy items." Besides, what could be more "trendy" than the K&N filter-on-a-stick?

jds

PS: I fully believe that they (whoever they are, I realize your comments weren't specifically referring to K&N) said this, I just think its BS. In case that wasn't clear :D

Speed Racer

I guess what I'm trying to drive home is that it is not wise to scare away potential vendors regardless of who they are. Especially when there are not many products made for our car. Personally I'd rather see a bunch of products from several different vendors. That way I could pick and choose what meets my needs (i.e. engineering design, performance, quality, price, style, sound...). Having more items to choose from only helps us. The extra competition encourages innovation and keeps prices at more reasonable level.

TheColonel

Rotary God, are you saying you think that the new K&N will also be as useless as the Typhoon or no? I'm looking for an inexpensive small HP gain and was thinking of an intake only because that's what I did to my Integra and it did wonders. I'm not expecting the same type of gains. I just would like to do something to my car to squeeze a few extra ponies out.

Also, whatever happened to the AEM V2 for our car? Is it just not coming? I used the AEM SRI on my Integra and loved it. I have faith in AEM as a company that produces quality products which unfortunately, after thinking about what Rotary God has said leads me to beleive that perhaps they're unable to produce real gains and have abandoned the V2 project for out car. I don't think AEM would be a company that ships crap products. I don't what rotary God's thoughts are on their products, but I liked the AEM. Besides, it definately improved mileage.

Mikelikes2drive

if a vendor has a great product with good gains, he will release it no matter what, so its best to scare away potential vendors if they dont have good products to release. K&N should do more R&D and release one FINAL GREAT product instead of just taking steps. i mean look at how long Racingbeat is taking.... (a lil too long but watevas) and yah... i think its good we're scaring potential vendors cuz then only the great ones with release their products.

Speed Racer

I'll give you a prime example, I've been trying to find a place that is willing to build a high quality bolt-in roll bar. I've contacted numerous shops which included local fabrication shops on one hand and Brey-Kraus on the other. BK makes some very nice pieces for Porsche and BMW and is known for their attention to detail with regards to design, fabrication, and testing. The engineer I spoke with was very interested in the RX-8 and he thought it was a great car. He even said that he would really like to make parts for it but from what he could see (on the forum) he did not feel that there were enough owners who were serious about making their cars track worthy. He pointed out that there is a lot more interest from other groups that center around Porsche, BMW, S2000, STi, EVO, and even the SRT-4. At the time I even started a thread to try to gauge interest for a high quality roll bar but it quickly degenerated into a flame fest and proved his point.

David_M

SR, to me it seem that the BK people just made a bussiness decision based on perceived demand. Nothing to do with bad attittude just a too small market.

crossbow

Oh really? You mean like creating an intake, saying its perfectly engineered and won't throw a cel, then having a few hundred mazda 6 owners with check engine lights yelling about it, and just ignoring the problem?

If you really want an eye opening experience, go visit the 3000GT/Stealth forums. The stuff AEM pulls on a daily basis will make you sick to your stomach. Nothing like "accidently" screwing up the ignition/fuel maps on a turbo based vehicle in your "update" and then saying "nothing is wrong", then turning around and secretly patching it, while a bunch of owners sit there with dead engines.

At least injen/k&n tend to admit when they make a fault and try to do something about it. I bet K&N will ship either rebate coupons, or some sort of incentive to current typhoon owners for the replacement units.

Napboy

don't hold your breath

bureau13

While I certainly agree with everything you said here at face value, I don't think any company that would go on a forum such as this, read about enthusiasts criticizing products for very good reasons, and decide not to produce a competing product because of this would be the kind of company that would make something I would want anyway. If anything, they would investigate the potential competition, find it wanting, and start salivating at the fact that there's a significant market of potential buyers who are fed up with the crap products currently available. Unless my product is also crap, as a supplier in this scenario I have to like that situation. You get a nice laundry list of mistakes and pitfalls to avoid for free.

jds

rotarygod

Now this is totally different from what was stated earlier. For someone to not want to produce a product because they didn't feel there was enough demand for it is certainly understandable. However, the statement was made that many vendors are scared to produce products for these cars by the attitude on this forum. Those are contradictory explanations. No one anywhere is scared off by the attitude on this or any forum. Which is it?

rotarygod

My comments are not intended to insult K&N or AEM as a company. Will an aftermarket intake give a power gain over stock on the RX-8? Yes and no. It really depends on the design. The stock design, while not the single best overall flowing design on the planet, does take advantage of certain acoustic gains to increase performance. When this is factored into the mix, it ends up being a very nicely designed and efficient intake system that serves it's needs well. Can it be improved? Sure it can but how much is the key that is often overlooked. An Integra, Mazda6, or other car may in fact benefit greatly from an aftermarket intake system. There are many cases where just installing a cone filter in place of the stock one is a great gain. This isn't necessarily true on the RX-8 though.

If you are looking for a "small" gain, you'll probably get it. This assumes that your opinion of small is 1 or 2 rather than 15 to 20. My issue is why spend the money on a horsepower when you can use that money for something you can actually notice. Will you feel the gain from any of these intake systems? No. I don't believe anyone who claims otherwise. Does this mean there was no gain? Nope. Your "butt dyno" is only really accurate to about a 10% change in power. A real dyno is much more precise.

There is a time when aftermarket intakes will be a necessary addition. This is when forced induction is used. Don't spend the money on the filter first though. Get your power gain first, then try to improve it. Once you get into turbos and superchargers, these units are increasing the amount of air flowing through the filter. The VFAD duct is no longer appropriate at this point and is only a restriction. The intake is no longer a tuning devide. The important thing now becomes getting the most air to the turbo/supercharger that we can. The key to this is to still get "cold" air to it.

Speed Racer

Actually it is not different. Let's use this new and improved K&N as an example. If the powers that be at K&N were watching this thread they would probably say that there is not enough interest in the new intake and may opt to scrap the project. Why should they bother with expending the time, effort, or money when people are already scoffing at the idea when it is still in prototype form? Your comments are explictly saying that there is not a market for this item.

This was exactly the same situation that occured with Brey Kraus. One person made the comment that a bolt in rollbar is a "piece of crap" and then the thread quickly filled up with comments from other people jumping on the band wagon. To make that comment about one of BK designs just showed that the person was unaware that they destructively test their designs to ensure that they are safe and his comment was complete BS. After seeing the responses on that thread BK decided that there was not enough interest to warrant their time, effort, or money.

So yes, the behavior on this forum can scare away excellent vendors. If you can't see that I won't bother with trying to explain it to you again.

Instead of categorically dismissing an item, we as enthusiasts should be talking about the merits (good and bad) of the item. Constructive criticism (which is not flaming) can be very helpful to consumers and vendors. As it tells the vendor what people are really interested in buying.

In this case it looks like the new K&N has a few features that set it apart from the "cone on a stick" intakes that are currently available. Most noteably the filter is open on the top and that should help to draw in more cool air and less of the hot engine bay air. The bell curve and the mesh screen are also a nice addition and look like they would help smooth the air flow over the MAF sensor. Which may help improve the rough idle. Is this the "ultimate" intake for the RX-8? I doubt it but there is definitely a market for "tuner" parts like this.

There are a few things that concern me and I'd like to know if K&N has thought about them. It seems like it was ages ago but I remember hearing Chuck at Rotary Extreme mention that the length of the intake tube was critical. He said that if it was too long/short it could cause the engine to idle rough. Did K&N also notice this and is the new intake a different length than the Typhoon? The hot air from the engine bay is also another issue that needs to be addressed and it would be nice to see them connect the filter to the fresh air duct. This would completely get rid of any chance of sucking in hot air from the engine bay. This would also create an "airbox" of sorts and in turn opens up a whole bunch of other questions...

If we get a good dialog of questions/suggestions going then maybe the vendor would be likely to step in to answer some questions for the enthusiasts. Just like Richard Paul has stepped forward and given us tons of info about axialflow superchargers.

bureau13

Thank god, because none of your examples prove your point :D Seriously, you will never convince me that anyone with a product that is even remotely decent will be scared away from making it because of a handful of posts on an internet forum. Sorry...ain't happenin'.

jds

TrackAddict

If you are regularly on this forum, you'll see that there are only a few hundred active participants. What ever the number, it is a mere fraction of the number of RX8 owners in the US, let alone world wide. That being said, if a company is dissuaded by a fraction of the few hundred that criticize their product, they are not that smart and probably not capable of building a product that has been researched and developed enough to be purchased by true enthusiasts. I know a guy with an RX8 and the Typhoon intake. He hadn't even heard of the RX8club and after I told him about it, he still doesn't check it out. I think aftermarket companies that think all their potential clients are online and believe everything they read are probaly building stuff that doesn't hold up under scrutiny. I wish this forum could ward off those trying to market inferior products but that isn't likely.

rotarygod

If K&N is looking at this thread, do you really feel that they will be discouraged from building a new kit? There are many people on this forum who have purchased the K&N intake regardless of what has been said here. That's discouraging to them alright and an obvious sign that the opinion of a few can affect the judgement of others.

Did I say there is not a market for good products? No, but you just did. Read it all again! I said there is no room for crap products.

So basically 1 particular person has decided that there "isn't a demand" for a rollbar for these cars as a whole around the entire world because of the comments of a few people on 1 lowly internet forum??? If anyone is completely idiotic enough to base their market research for the entire planet on the opinion of a handful of people on one internet forum, they probably shouldn't be in business in the first place. That is really just terrible market research and no fault of anyone here. Maybe if he tried 2 different forums???

Since we're apparently into examples here, I'll give you one. You could come to market with a complete crap product, have it tested and verified not to work worth a crap, advertise it as crap, sell it as crap, and people would STILL buy it thinking they bought the single best piece of crap ever made and you could still get rich off of it. People don't base business judgements off of the opinions of only a few people all who know each other. We couldn't have had such wonderful money making products such as the "pet rock" or "the tornado fuel saving device" if it was the opinion of a few people on a forum that they didn't think it was worth buying.

I'm not "buying" any argument against this. The aftermarket can make what they will and as much of it as they like. Don't expect me or anyone to approve of all of it though. If it works, I'll like it. What's so unreasonable about that? I only criticize things that don't work and point out things that should be questioned until verified to work. If we all assumed everything to work good as advertised, we'd leave ourselves open to getting ripped off and then we'd be guilty of helping the market get saturated with crap. Do we punish the smart but reward the foolish? If this were a political thread I'd state how this logic doesn't work with those of us who are "right".

Fanman

I honestly could not care less if K&N read this thread & decided not to do another product for us. They made a crap product & were taken to task for it. What should we do ? Even if they made a junk product sing it's praises so that we don't scare off any potential vendors & have more people who read this board buy a defective product ? If you make crap, expect to get called on it. Just like if I had a garbage Ford car (which i did), should I not relay my negative experience just so that they might make another car in the future ? Or should I go and buy another product. If K&N doesn't want to make their product, then you will have plenty of RX8 owners buying Racing Beat, HKS, Rotary Extreme intakes.

I know what you are saying, but to say not to relay negative experiences is pretty ridiculous. This board is here so that posters can bounces ideas & experiences off one another so that we don't have to encounter the same problems/reinvent the wheel everytime we have a new item. I did not get a K&N because of the negative experiences that people on this board had with the product. I was lucky I saved $200 on a non-functional aftermarket part thanks to people posting here.

Mike Z

K&N Typhoon system is a good design and can work, but K&N put the wrong air filter on it.

S&B makes a 7" long cone filter with a 3 1/2 flange ID that can replace the current bubble filter(as I call it) and will let the RX-8 induction breath as it was designed too, from the front and also benefit from the rest of the induction design, plus suck in cold air from the front air inlet.

A lot of you forget, not all 8's have the same enrichment. Some run lean and don't benefit from any induction changes and a lot run rich to very rich(like mine)and will benefit from getting more air flow. So, results or pain really depend on your cars setting; lean-na rich-ya!!!!

K&N tested their Typhoon system orignally on a J flashing(ya J flashing) which was very rich and got good results. Since then, we have K, L, M, M-a b c d e etc. and even a N which will change enrichment and timing as well as Mazda's sensors are not consistent car to car. So, some of you maybe luckier than others on performance and gas mileage due to these little quricks!!!!!

The S&B 7" cone made a good improvement to my 8 overall from the previous K&N filter. It was an inexpensive fix to a good system. Then, I went to Aaron Bros and bought a black foam piece and cut it to fit over the filter, all for $1.00 and the car breaths cooler and runs better. Kinda of like "Great taste and less filling" :D

Go to www.intenseperformance.com and check out their designs.

Common Sense

bureau13

Are your test results based on any sort of measurements, or are they subjective seat-of-the-pants impressions? Lots of people thought the K&N improved performance too until they actually measured horsepower on a dyno.

jds

AdictiveRx

These are some of the LONGEST posts in history. Just write a book or periodical and mail it out to eachother... yeesh

therm8

I'd be willing to bet that the guy who invented that Turbonator Fuel Saver doodad would agree with you :D

eclps0

it looks good, maybe its alot better then its previous model

fizzer

I just saw an add for this intake in the latest issue of Road&Track. It says it gives a gauranteed 10 hp to the wheels for a stock RX-8 (thats right is says gauranteed on a STOCK 8). I'll try to get a scan of it posted tomorrow.

A 10whp jump is a pretty damn bold claim, I wonder if K&N just went crazy with R&D on this piece or if they're just completely clueless.

Fanman

Their previous ad was a "guarantee" for 9.5 hp & LOST hp on the dyno. People can gaurantee whatever they want, because they know that 90% will never dyno their cars, & also there will be a large percentage that even if they don't get the 10 whp, will be too lazy to try & return it & go through the hassle.

BTW, there was a recent article where they added this new intake (carbon fiber) to an RX8 & got 2.5 hp (the RB exhaust they added got a little more than 1.5 hp).