Supercharger on ebay!!!
01-15-2006, 01:20 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul
I have enough standing in the supercharger industry and on the forum so that I could have just given you a two word answer: you're wrong. No one would have thought less of it. Instead I go through all the trouble of trying to explain it to you over and over again. Then instead of listining you try insulting me.
You don't deserve an education.
If you want to learn and not listen to hearsay from your buddies go to the axial flow thread and read just the first 6 pages including the attachments.
Don't talk back until you do.
You don't deserve an education.
If you want to learn and not listen to hearsay from your buddies go to the axial flow thread and read just the first 6 pages including the attachments.
Don't talk back until you do.
I don't have to listen to hearsay, I can see it, and have seen it.
I also don't have to listen to you. Just because you say you have "standing in the supercharger industry and on the forum" means absolutely jack diddly **** to me. If the world's greatest expert about some subject came up to me and said I was wrong, I'd still say prove it. I will not believe someone's word, I want hard evidence. Video, showing me in person, whatever. Anyone, even experts, can lie or be incorrect from time to time. Not saying you are doing either of these, but it's true.
If you truly don't care what I have to say, and think I'm so wrong, why continue to respond to me? If you think you are so right about all of this, why not just ignore me? Very simple. I merely respond because I have seen the things I am quoting unless otherwise noted, and therefore that is my real life experience. What you are saying I have never seen, and it is contradictory to what I have, so I disagree. And I will continue to disagree until I see evidence otherwise. And telling me something is not evidence, it's just type on the computer screen, and that most of the time means nothing to me.
Sorry.
01-15-2006, 02:04 AM
#52
Administrator
twin screw bypass pic
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/g...tAirWARNING.pdf
ddub you seem to be being almost purposely rude. why dont you ratchet the heat back a notch or two.
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/g...tAirWARNING.pdf
"The Kenne Bell Twin Screw Supercharger is essentially an air compressor and an air tank combined. That is why it is so potent and capable of
generating full instant boost at the flick of the throttle at any engine rpm. It's akin to an air hose (throttle) connected to the air tank (supercharger). The
handle (trigger) regulates the air flow (boost) into the engine. Engine rpm has little to do with the boost delivery. Boost is regulated with the gas pedal.
Abasic law of physics tell us that all air is heated when compressed, regardless of the supercharger or turbocharger type. To lower the superchargers
air temperature at idle and cruise, we rely on a bypass valve which "dumps" the hot compressed air in back of the throttle body where it is
"decompressed" and the temp is thereby lowered with the help of the cooler incoming ambient air flow through the throttle body. Unfortunately, at idle
and cruise, the throttle body is closed or barely open thereby allowing relatively little new cool air flow into the supercharger. So, the last thing on this
planet that our supercharger needs is more hot 200° air from those ridiculous, useless, power robbing underhood "hot air" systems. LOSETHEMand
use a 4" or 5" hose (depending onHPlevel) to pull cool air out of the fenderwell just like all the OEM's, racers and the knowledgeable do."
generating full instant boost at the flick of the throttle at any engine rpm. It's akin to an air hose (throttle) connected to the air tank (supercharger). The
handle (trigger) regulates the air flow (boost) into the engine. Engine rpm has little to do with the boost delivery. Boost is regulated with the gas pedal.
Abasic law of physics tell us that all air is heated when compressed, regardless of the supercharger or turbocharger type. To lower the superchargers
air temperature at idle and cruise, we rely on a bypass valve which "dumps" the hot compressed air in back of the throttle body where it is
"decompressed" and the temp is thereby lowered with the help of the cooler incoming ambient air flow through the throttle body. Unfortunately, at idle
and cruise, the throttle body is closed or barely open thereby allowing relatively little new cool air flow into the supercharger. So, the last thing on this
planet that our supercharger needs is more hot 200° air from those ridiculous, useless, power robbing underhood "hot air" systems. LOSETHEMand
use a 4" or 5" hose (depending onHPlevel) to pull cool air out of the fenderwell just like all the OEM's, racers and the knowledgeable do."
Originally Posted by Hymee
We don't plan to clutch it in/out like an AC compressor.
There is a bypass valve that effectively allows the supercharger to freewheel, not pumping any boost into the engine. It is still spinning with the engine, so it is ready to release its boost into the engine when the throttle is opened. This valve is controlled by manifold pressure/vacuum. In this case, the throttle acts as the switch. This bypass valve arrangement is recommended by the blower manufacturer. In fact, we are using their bypass valve.
I do know that some installations have the supercharger enganged via an electromagnetic clutch. My main worry about this, especially on a "small capacity" engine that is low on torque anyway, is the inertia hit taken when the clutch engages, and the blower rotors need to spin up to speed.
From my experience with what we have done to date, the bypass valve works well. Squeeze the throttle, the boost comes on. You feel it, you hear it, and if you look at the boost gauge, you can see it. :D
Cheers,
Hymee.
There is a bypass valve that effectively allows the supercharger to freewheel, not pumping any boost into the engine. It is still spinning with the engine, so it is ready to release its boost into the engine when the throttle is opened. This valve is controlled by manifold pressure/vacuum. In this case, the throttle acts as the switch. This bypass valve arrangement is recommended by the blower manufacturer. In fact, we are using their bypass valve.
I do know that some installations have the supercharger enganged via an electromagnetic clutch. My main worry about this, especially on a "small capacity" engine that is low on torque anyway, is the inertia hit taken when the clutch engages, and the blower rotors need to spin up to speed.
From my experience with what we have done to date, the bypass valve works well. Squeeze the throttle, the boost comes on. You feel it, you hear it, and if you look at the boost gauge, you can see it. :D
Cheers,
Hymee.
Originally Posted by Rasputin
The Bypass Valve can also be piloted by a solenoid valve that's controlled by the auxiliary engine management system (Motec or other), Turbo Waste Gate - style. It means that you can specify which boost you want to run at every operating point (RPM, TPS).
Fabrice
Fabrice
01-15-2006, 01:34 PM
#54
Registered
Originally Posted by dDuB
Do onto others what is done onto you.
Whatever.zoom44 posted several quotes that prove YOU wrong. Are you pulling a "rotarygod" (as you claim he disappears when he's proved wrong, never to post again)? You belittle others for doing that, yet you're going to ignore the proof that you're wrong? Too arrogant to admit you've got something to learn?
I'll say it too - you're claiming that just holding a supercharged engine at a steady 5K rpm, out of gear, no load, and it's producing boost. That's practically and theoretically impossible. It will still be under high vacuum. Why? If it would be under boost, it would be making significant power. If there's no load and boost, it would be trying to accelerate (quickly) to the rev limiter or beyond. If you're holding a SC'd engine at a steady no load 5K rpm, it's making the same power as a non-SC'd engine at 5K rpm. That's a couple of hp only, enough to keep the internal engine mass rotating at 5K rpm, and it's the same power required whether there's a SC bolted on or not. The engine has NO boost pressure in the intake manifold. Why not? Again, read the quotes in zoom44's post - all real SC systems use a bypass valve that prevent any boost from building up in the SC if there's no load.
Just because it's rotating, it doesn't have to make boost. If no air goes in to the SC, it doesn't matter if the SC is rotating at 1 rpm or 100,000 rpm, there's nothing to compress, and it can NOT make any boost. No air to compress = no compression by SC. No boost. Get it yet? If the SC is spinning in a vacuum, as when the bypass valve is preventing air from going through the SC, then it can't make boost.
The bypass valve is controlled by vacuum. When the throttle and load meet certain conditions (ie mid- to full-throttle, engine under load), the engine will have higher intake manifold pressure (less vacuum), the bypass valve opens progressively, and the SC starts getting airflow to compress, and boost begins to build.
Once more - just because a SC is spinning does NOT mean it's making boost. No air going into the SC means it's not making providing any boost, even if it's spinning at 100K rpm.
Ok, time for YOU to admit you're wrong and know nothing about how supercharger automotive installations operate (or at least, didn't before this thread - but somehow, I doubt with an attitude like yours that you'll bother to learn anything. You'll just get pissed off that people are disagreeing with you, get stubborn and defensive, swear at a few more people, and not actually learn anything.)
Regards,
Gordon
PS - I don't run a supercharged RX-8 - I have a supercharged Miata. And a degree in mechanical engineering. Supercharging, and bypass valves, aren't anything new, you know.
01-15-2006, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gord96BRG
zoom44 posted several quotes that prove YOU wrong. Are you pulling a "rotarygod" (as you claim he disappears when he's proved wrong, never to post again)? You belittle others for doing that, yet you're going to ignore the proof that you're wrong? Too arrogant to admit you've got something to learn?
I'll say it too - you're claiming that just holding a supercharged engine at a steady 5K rpm, out of gear, no load, and it's producing boost. That's practically and theoretically impossible. It will still be under high vacuum. Why? If it would be under boost, it would be making significant power. If there's no load and boost, it would be trying to accelerate (quickly) to the rev limiter or beyond. If you're holding a SC'd engine at a steady no load 5K rpm, it's making the same power as a non-SC'd engine at 5K rpm. That's a couple of hp only, enough to keep the internal engine mass rotating at 5K rpm, and it's the same power required whether there's a SC bolted on or not. The engine has NO boost pressure in the intake manifold. Why not? Again, read the quotes in zoom44's post - all real SC systems use a bypass valve that prevent any boost from building up in the SC if there's no load.
Just because it's rotating, it doesn't have to make boost. If no air goes in to the SC, it doesn't matter if the SC is rotating at 1 rpm or 100,000 rpm, there's nothing to compress, and it can NOT make any boost. No air to compress = no compression by SC. No boost. Get it yet? If the SC is spinning in a vacuum, as when the bypass valve is preventing air from going through the SC, then it can't make boost.
The bypass valve is controlled by vacuum. When the throttle and load meet certain conditions (ie mid- to full-throttle, engine under load), the engine will have higher intake manifold pressure (less vacuum), the bypass valve opens progressively, and the SC starts getting airflow to compress, and boost begins to build.
Once more - just because a SC is spinning does NOT mean it's making boost. No air going into the SC means it's not making providing any boost, even if it's spinning at 100K rpm.
Ok, time for YOU to admit you're wrong and know nothing about how supercharger automotive installations operate (or at least, didn't before this thread - but somehow, I doubt with an attitude like yours that you'll bother to learn anything. You'll just get pissed off that people are disagreeing with you, get stubborn and defensive, swear at a few more people, and not actually learn anything.)
Regards,
Gordon
PS - I don't run a supercharged RX-8 - I have a supercharged Miata. And a degree in mechanical engineering. Supercharging, and bypass valves, aren't anything new, you know.
Just because it's rotating, it doesn't have to make boost. If no air goes in to the SC, it doesn't matter if the SC is rotating at 1 rpm or 100,000 rpm, there's nothing to compress, and it can NOT make any boost. No air to compress = no compression by SC. No boost. Get it yet? If the SC is spinning in a vacuum, as when the bypass valve is preventing air from going through the SC, then it can't make boost.
The bypass valve is controlled by vacuum. When the throttle and load meet certain conditions (ie mid- to full-throttle, engine under load), the engine will have higher intake manifold pressure (less vacuum), the bypass valve opens progressively, and the SC starts getting airflow to compress, and boost begins to build.
Once more - just because a SC is spinning does NOT mean it's making boost. No air going into the SC means it's not making providing any boost, even if it's spinning at 100K rpm.
Ok, time for YOU to admit you're wrong and know nothing about how supercharger automotive installations operate (or at least, didn't before this thread - but somehow, I doubt with an attitude like yours that you'll bother to learn anything. You'll just get pissed off that people are disagreeing with you, get stubborn and defensive, swear at a few more people, and not actually learn anything.)
Regards,
Gordon
PS - I don't run a supercharged RX-8 - I have a supercharged Miata. And a degree in mechanical engineering. Supercharging, and bypass valves, aren't anything new, you know.
I also indicated earlier on in this thread that a setup with NO bypass valve would try to create boost at idle and low rpm, thus causing idle issues and drag on the engine.
My statements were that ANY supercharger can create boost free revving, however I guess I didn't make it clear enough that this was in a setup with no bypass valve. My apologies.
01-15-2006, 02:08 PM
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It seems this is the only place I made mention of it, my apologies for not saying it more.
There are supercharger setups and kits out there for cars where NO bypass valve is used. Even if it's not proper, or best, or whatever, you can have a supercharger setup with no bypass valve. And in that situation my statements would be true, would they not?
Where did I ever once say I was talking about a system WITH a bypass valve? I was just saying it was possible.
Originally Posted by dDuB
Also, depending on the design of the supercharger, from what I understand without a bypass valve the charger CAN build boost at idle. Depends on a lot of variables but from what I have collected, this is true, and it will cause drag because it's showing less vac than it should since it is trying to compress that little air being sucked in.
Where did I ever once say I was talking about a system WITH a bypass valve? I was just saying it was possible.
01-15-2006, 02:16 PM
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Well, this informative thread certainly devolved into a pissing match. Too bad, too, because it's obviously due to two very differnt style of communicating. Folks are arguing becuase they aren't taking the time to look for the subtle differences in what is being said. dDub and RP are both right, just talking about different end results. RPM <> HP. dDub has been talking about Rev's, and RP about power. Now, in my opinion, power is the more important consideration. In order for any system to be in equilibrium, forces must be equal on both sides of the equation. So, in order to maintain the 5K RPM dDub has talked about, the mass of air/fuel Richard Paul is talking about must remain constant, thus there can be no additional boost or load that both of them are talking about. So dDub is right, you can hold a specific RPM, and RP is right, you can't do that if you're forcing more air/fuel into the engine than is required to maintain said RPM. Now, if there's anymore discussion on this topic, the participants are more interested in being right than in communicating, or coming to a greater understanding of the universe and its inhabitants.
01-15-2006, 02:26 PM
#58
Administrator
ahh but dDub is say that holding a engine at 5k in free rev the SC is building boost and that just isnt correct- as you just said there is no load and no boost.
i agree with the last part- i wasnt "trying to prove him wrong" just sharing the info on the bypass.
i agree with the last part- i wasnt "trying to prove him wrong" just sharing the info on the bypass.
01-15-2006, 02:34 PM
#59
Registered
Originally Posted by dDuB
I believe I said I was similar to rotarygod in the sense that I am very opinionated and do not back down. I believe I also said that you do not need to point this out, because I already know it.
Also, all zoom proved was if there is a bypass valve installed. I believe I posted that if no bypass valve was installed, boost would be generated, which is a bad setup.
I could also suggest that if someone installed a nitrous setup with no valves or switches or solenoids so that it was constantly flowing it would make additional power ALL the time - but again, nobody is stupid enough to ever do that, so what's the point of discussing a ridiculous hypothetical scenario?
Hi, I believe I talked about s/c systems without a bypass valve. Where in this entire thread did I ever say that in a s/c setup WITH a bypass valve this would happen? Never!
My statements were that ANY supercharger can create boost free revving, however I guess I didn't make it clear enough that this was in a setup with no bypass valve. My apologies.
This thread started out discussing this specific e-bay SC kit. YOU posted:
So how does it work? Is it something you have to install in order to not build boost and uninstall when you want to build boost again? Or is it something that turns on/off with a switch? Solenoid? Valve? Just curious how you switch from wanting the supercharger to build boost to not, and if this requires pulling over and changing somerthing under the hood or being able to do it while driving if you wanted to.
It seems you're even worse than the charge you made against rotarygod. You don't disappear, you don't admit you were wrong or that you learned something here, you try to weasel... that's pathetic.
01-15-2006, 03:04 PM
#61
Your still wrong, bypass valve or not it will not make boost without the throttle being open.
I'm going to be an *** hole and say that non of you have ever designed one SC installation. Period. Not only have I designed many I have built over 1000 of them. On top of that I've designed the SC themselves.
I have never used a bypass valve, it isn't nessasary if the SC is efficiant enough.
No work is done if no mass is compressed. I can't belive that you can't understand this. The most rediculous setup in the world is the top fuel dragster. Do you think they make boost at idle? They don't, if they did they couldn't idle they would be making to much power just to overcome the internal friction. They have no bypass valve. They never even heard of them.
I only suggested Rotorygod because he writes well, no other reason. I can describe something to him and he understands me and then can do a better job of telling it in print. I always said I wasn't the best teacher, if I was I'd be on campus someplace looking at coeds.
Has anyone you even know have their own engine dyno and research equipment? I doubt it. I can just turn on the dyno and prove you wrong. I can't possably count the number of supercharged engines I have dynoed or the number of hours I spent in the dyno room. And don't even think that I can't duplicate any situation on the dyno. The Superflow dyno can be programed to make the engine think it is doing anything that it will do in a car. Some have even programed them to run a road course.
This is really a sad thread and I know I keep saying I quit but I like to see people get an understanding of this because I run up against misinformed people everyday. I had this exact thing happen on a blower I sold to a customer who put the blower on and instantly called me to say it didn't make any boost. He was still in the garage. He tried to make boost without driving it. He couldn't do it. Once he drove it worked. Wish I remembered who it was I'd let you call him.
Go over to the S2k forum there are dozens of guys there with SC cars, ask them to make boost for you at idle. You'll be the joke of the week.
I'm going to be an *** hole and say that non of you have ever designed one SC installation. Period. Not only have I designed many I have built over 1000 of them. On top of that I've designed the SC themselves.
I have never used a bypass valve, it isn't nessasary if the SC is efficiant enough.
No work is done if no mass is compressed. I can't belive that you can't understand this. The most rediculous setup in the world is the top fuel dragster. Do you think they make boost at idle? They don't, if they did they couldn't idle they would be making to much power just to overcome the internal friction. They have no bypass valve. They never even heard of them.
I only suggested Rotorygod because he writes well, no other reason. I can describe something to him and he understands me and then can do a better job of telling it in print. I always said I wasn't the best teacher, if I was I'd be on campus someplace looking at coeds.
Has anyone you even know have their own engine dyno and research equipment? I doubt it. I can just turn on the dyno and prove you wrong. I can't possably count the number of supercharged engines I have dynoed or the number of hours I spent in the dyno room. And don't even think that I can't duplicate any situation on the dyno. The Superflow dyno can be programed to make the engine think it is doing anything that it will do in a car. Some have even programed them to run a road course.
This is really a sad thread and I know I keep saying I quit but I like to see people get an understanding of this because I run up against misinformed people everyday. I had this exact thing happen on a blower I sold to a customer who put the blower on and instantly called me to say it didn't make any boost. He was still in the garage. He tried to make boost without driving it. He couldn't do it. Once he drove it worked. Wish I remembered who it was I'd let you call him.
Go over to the S2k forum there are dozens of guys there with SC cars, ask them to make boost for you at idle. You'll be the joke of the week.
Last edited by Richard Paul; 01-15-2006 at 03:10 PM.
01-15-2006, 03:22 PM
#62
One more thing, you are in no way like RotaryGod. I have in the past corrected Fred and he has been the gentelman and acknowlaged it. Conversly He has had to educate me about how the rotary works and I was glad to get the education he offered.
From this both he and I have more understanding then we had before. He nor I feel any pain from learning, it is gratifying in fact.
That is the wonderfull thing about the internet, you can get all the information you want or you can ignore it and belive you are the most informed person in the world. Unlike you I still need to learn, I still go to advanced engine conferences and I gleen everything I can networking with people in the industry. I sit in on seminars with topics I think I already know well. I guess thats just me.
From this both he and I have more understanding then we had before. He nor I feel any pain from learning, it is gratifying in fact.
That is the wonderfull thing about the internet, you can get all the information you want or you can ignore it and belive you are the most informed person in the world. Unlike you I still need to learn, I still go to advanced engine conferences and I gleen everything I can networking with people in the industry. I sit in on seminars with topics I think I already know well. I guess thats just me.
01-15-2006, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Gord96BRG
I didn't point that out, I asked if you were big enough to admit when you're wrong, as you slandered rotarygod by suggesting that he wasn't. So far, you're not.
That's just weaseling out from losing your argument. Show me ONE supercharger setup where a bypass valve, either internal or externa, is not used. They don't exist. Sure, if someone was dumb enough to try to install a supercharger without any bypass, it would make boost all the time and blow itself up. Nobody is stupid enough to do that.
Never said it would be a good setup, never said it should be a setup used in any application, just said it was possible.
I could also suggest that if someone installed a nitrous setup with no valves or switches or solenoids so that it was constantly flowing it would make additional power ALL the time - but again, nobody is stupid enough to ever do that, so what's the point of discussing a ridiculous hypothetical scenario?
I'm getting tired of repeating myself. NEVER once did I say it was good, or should be done, or any of that. One person asked if it is possible in a s/c setup to build boost when free revving (ie in neutral). THAT'S ALL THAT WAS SAID. Someone said it was not possible, I said it was. I never said it was a good idea, just that it was possible. Then people went ape nuts over the fact that they thought I meant in a correctly setup kit. That was never the beginning of all this, the beginning was just IF it was possible. The peson did not say, is it possible in the blitz setup, or any other properly setup charger. Nope, so that's not what I was referring to.
And again, there are charger kits out there that do this, however wrong it may be.
There are NO s/c systems without bypass valves. We are talking about real s/c systems, not some dumb imaginary system that nobody every builds or uses! Why would you bother trying to prove a disadvantage of a supercharger configuration that is never used? Rather pointless, don't you think? Who cares what a hypothetical no-bypass-valve supercharger system might do? You could as easily (and as ridiculously) argue that a turbo system with no throttle will always produce boost because it will always be at full throttle. Yeah, so what? That has nothing to do with any real-world discussion about the merits of real turbo systems.
They are however working on it, but they've been selling these kits for years and still have not implemented a bypass valve.
More weaseling to try to avoid having to admit you were wrong. There are NO s/c setups with no bypass valve.
This thread started out discussing this specific e-bay SC kit. YOU posted:
You made blanket statements about superchargers that were wrong, and it was obvious that you were completely unaware of the existence of bypass valves in every supercharger system. Now you're trying to weasel out of having to admit that you were wrong by qualifying your erroneous statements by claiming "I didn't mean if a bypass valve was installed". You didn't even know that bypass valves were used in supercharger systems.
You made blanket statements about superchargers that were wrong, and it was obvious that you were completely unaware of the existence of bypass valves in every supercharger system. Now you're trying to weasel out of having to admit that you were wrong by qualifying your erroneous statements by claiming "I didn't mean if a bypass valve was installed". You didn't even know that bypass valves were used in supercharger systems.
I asked zoom for his explaination of the bypass valve, he very willingly gave it to me and I thank him for that. However, I understood the concept of the bypass valve, just didn't know its name. I also did research after that on my own and now know its purpose, and now know why Camden charger setups require 1100-1500 rpm idle due to terrible drag.
It seems you're even worse than the charge you made against rotarygod. You don't disappear, you don't admit you were wrong or that you learned something here, you try to weasel... that's pathetic.
I am not wrong for what I am stating, that's all I'm trying to say. The original point of what I was saying was not towards the blitz kit, not towards the main topic of the thread, it was towards another question that was posed. You all however misunderstand a lot of what I say.
01-15-2006, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mugatu
dDuB, we would all like you to install a supercharger with no bypass valve and video your results. we all here would LOVE to see the outcome.
01-15-2006, 05:40 PM
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Boost at idle? Not going to happen. HOWEVER, that does NOT mean that the supercharger will not be compressing air, ever notice that you see LESS vacuum with the charger on without a bypass than the same car prior to the supercharger? Which produces drag and leads to generally poor idle, this is why they use bypass valves.
01-15-2006, 05:45 PM
#66
Administrator
dan atkins and i have met on several occasions even drove with him to 7stock 7 him in his rotary pickup with the camden he hadnt even tuned yet because he had just got it in the truck the night before.( he had cooling issues all the way down too) the camden set up doesnt have a bypass but it also doesnt make boost at idle or free revving. if there are idling issues with the camden setup then there is some other problem. ill see if i can get a hold of dan to ask whats going on.
) the camden set up doesnt have a bypass but it also doesnt make boost at idle or free revving. if there are idling issues with the camden setup then there is some other problem. ill see if i can get a hold of dan to ask whats going on.
01-15-2006, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by zoom44
dan atkins and i have met on several occasions even drove with him to 7stock 7 him in his rotary pickup with the camden he hadnt even tuned yet because he had just got it in the truck the night before.( he had cooling issues all the way down too) the camden set up doesnt have a bypass but it also doesnt make boost at idle or free revving. if there are idling issues with the camden setup then there is some other problem. ill see if i can get a hold of dan to ask whats going on.
) the camden set up doesnt have a bypass but it also doesnt make boost at idle or free revving. if there are idling issues with the camden setup then there is some other problem. ill see if i can get a hold of dan to ask whats going on.
01-15-2006, 06:29 PM
#69
I have just glazed-over at the prospect of reading all of the thrashing above (certainly I have done similar and I'm sure others have gone asleep then as well), but I'd like to make a couple of quick insertions and you can use them accordingly.
1) A bypass is only needed in an up-stream throttle setup.
Most cetrifugal kits will be down-stream throttle.
2) You should always indicate that you mean no positive pressure in the manifold as opposed to no positive pressure at all when making such assertions. An SC, whether belt or turbine driven will attempt to make boost whenever it is spinning. I think it is abundantly clear that any throttle down-stream system will be producing boost with any RPMs over off-idle, but it won't be seen at the manifold.
1) A bypass is only needed in an up-stream throttle setup.
Most cetrifugal kits will be down-stream throttle.
2) You should always indicate that you mean no positive pressure in the manifold as opposed to no positive pressure at all when making such assertions. An SC, whether belt or turbine driven will attempt to make boost whenever it is spinning. I think it is abundantly clear that any throttle down-stream system will be producing boost with any RPMs over off-idle, but it won't be seen at the manifold.
01-15-2006, 07:04 PM
#70
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Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
2) You should always indicate that you mean no positive pressure in the manifold as opposed to no positive pressure at all when making such assertions. An SC, whether belt or turbine driven will attempt to make boost whenever it is spinning. I think it is abundantly clear that any throttle down-stream system will be producing boost with any RPMs over off-idle, but it won't be seen at the manifold.
01-15-2006, 07:09 PM
#71
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Originally Posted by zoom44
dan atkins and i have met on several occasions even drove with him to 7stock 7 him in his rotary pickup with the camden he hadnt even tuned yet because he had just got it in the truck the night before.( he had cooling issues all the way down too) the camden set up doesnt have a bypass but it also doesnt make boost at idle or free revving. if there are idling issues with the camden setup then there is some other problem. ill see if i can get a hold of dan to ask whats going on.
) the camden set up doesnt have a bypass but it also doesnt make boost at idle or free revving. if there are idling issues with the camden setup then there is some other problem. ill see if i can get a hold of dan to ask whats going on.This also may be due to stock ecu and inferior manifold setup. With carb it can be easier to get a new manifold that may work much more efficiently.
01-15-2006, 08:07 PM
#72
Originally Posted by SonicRaT
Boost at idle? Not going to happen. HOWEVER, that does NOT mean that the supercharger will not be compressing air, ever notice that you see LESS vacuum with the charger on without a bypass than the same car prior to the supercharger? Which produces drag and leads to generally poor idle, this is why they use bypass valves.
Not true. The only reason that you would see less vacuum in the manifold with the blower is that it is taking a little more power to turn the Sc. I mean a little I doubt you can see it on an analog gauge. I can't see it on a digital gauge on my dyno printout using my supercharger. That's how little it is, the roots will take some, maybe noticable but I can't varify that.
Next you say you can get 10psi recorded in neutral? Well you may do it for a micro second while the engine overcomes the resistance to accelerate the mass, but that's all. On top of that it is not at idle ond the throttle is wide open so it doesn't relate to this topic. I still need to see this though in person.
Why don't you guys settle this by calling Hymee and have him disconnect the bypass valve and tell you guys what the manifold pressure is. He has the only Rx8 I know of SC except I belive Wildcard has his first customer unit. Try him too.
Of course some of you may not belive them either.
01-15-2006, 08:09 PM
#73
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Originally Posted by dDuB
Why should I believe anything rotarygod says? Sure he knows some stuff, but a lot of what he says is opinionated. He is a very opinionated person; as I am so don't try saying that, I already know. But the issue with him is that he takes what he says as fact and no other way around it. I've read a fair amount of threads on here, and rx7club, where someone proves him wrong and guess what happens? Never posts in the thread again, just disappears. Funny huh?
Rotarygod is a smart guy, but he is way too arrogant in his knowledge and is unwilling to yield. And unfortunately the readers of this board think long written posts with lots of technical jargon means someone knows everything.
Rotarygod is a smart guy, but he is way too arrogant in his knowledge and is unwilling to yield. And unfortunately the readers of this board think long written posts with lots of technical jargon means someone knows everything.
I am arrogant. I can't hide that. I'm good at it. When I am wrong and proven wrong, I'll admit it. I've been wrong once in my life. It's conceivable that I could actually be wrong twice! When I am correct though, I am unwilling to yield on things and sometimes I'll just back down rather than continue to waste my time trying to convince people why they are wrong. You haven't proven me wrong on anything which is probably why you think I am unwilling to yield. You've tried though. Show me where someone on the 7 club has proven me wrong on something. It would be easier to find a thread over there that I argued in where everyone believed the wrong way to do it and I just let it go. I'm actually a big fan of saying "I told you so". Some of the more respected people on that board are fairly rotary ignorant which is alot of the problem over there. Too bad they don't know it. There are some very smart people there too though.
For what it's worth, I don't seem to recall ever singling you out in a post in public trying to make you look bad. That would make me look bad to others and I just won't do that to myself.
01-15-2006, 08:18 PM
#74
Fred, you are such an arrogant pr*ck! 
I hope you took that as a compliment.
Actually, arrogant is probably not what you mean. Arrogant is defined as "exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance in an overbearing manner".
I think pompous, pretentious, conceited, egotistical, hubristic, vainglorious or supercilious would be better ways to describe you.
Or me for that matter...
I hope you took that as a compliment.
Actually, arrogant is probably not what you mean. Arrogant is defined as "exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance in an overbearing manner".
I think pompous, pretentious, conceited, egotistical, hubristic, vainglorious or supercilious would be better ways to describe you.
Or me for that matter...
01-15-2006, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
I do seem to recall telling YOU about a year ago that your port job on your 2nd gen engine was done wrong. You got all pissy about it. Then about 6 months later you realized I was right after speaking to several other knowledgeable rotary people about it and you sent me a PM to apologize for it which was actually quite big of you to do. Then you built another engine. Too bad you went and did the other port style that isn't worth a crap. Aux. port bridges don't work on 2nd gens!!! What happened to that engine again?
I grew out of the unstreetable, loud, and uncomfortable car I had been building and decided to part it out. Unfortunately I was going to get way more money parting out the car rather than selling it whole. Too bad, but it happens.
I am arrogant. I can't hide that. I'm good at it. When I am wrong and proven wrong, I'll admit it. I've been wrong once in my life. It's conceivable that I could actually be wrong twice! When I am correct though, I am unwilling to yield on things and sometimes I'll just back down rather than continue to waste my time trying to convince people why they are wrong. You haven't proven me wrong on anything which is probably why you think I am unwilling to yield. You've tried though. Show me where someone on the 7 club has proven me wrong on something. It would be easier to find a thread over there that I argued in where everyone believed the wrong way to do it and I just let it go. I'm actually a big fan of saying "I told you so". Some of the more respected people on that board are fairly rotary ignorant which is alot of the problem over there. Too bad they don't know it. There are some very smart people there too though.
Only issue off hand I can think of on this board, but I don't read a whole lot here either.
For what it's worth, I don't seem to recall ever singling you out in a post in public trying to make you look bad. That would make me look bad to others and I just won't do that to myself.
I think we have similar personalities unfortunately (not talking about knowledge in anything, don't want to get into that argument as it is not important), and thus we clash in threads where we have differing opinions.