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don’t be silly, if you know anything at all about a rotary engine then you understand that if you hit it anywhere the e-shaft is going forward into the thrust bearing, especially when you hit it hard enough to matter and force the situation.
so I was probably wrong about using a bolt in the threaded holes, those appear to be to mount the factory puller, which only costs $45 new and should pop it off easily using just a wrench; no drama, frustration, or potential damage. If somebody bought one and then offered it for sale it and then so on, it could just be passed around by people who need it at minimal cost
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I can't recall if those holes are for the puller or the AT balancer. I also agree if smacked hard enough the force will propegate through the shaft and will create a slight impression on the iron at the end of the engine, if hit hard enough.
Considering how many people have done this with no reported issues I'd assume it's a negligible impact unless you really strike it hard. I'd almost argue the "bread trick" is more detrimental, I only barely attempted it before thinking "a bearing puller is cheap, why am I going to directly hit the end of the driveshaft."
As I said I'd recommend to future people to consider a torch before smacking the flywheel to hard, as long as you're quick to move it around quickly and heat the flywheel evenly you'll get it to almost pop off with light taps from a deadblow or sledge and wood. Also if you can get a steering wheel puller that has slot spacing up to 4.75" or so you're in business, a lot of mechanics use these for rotaries as they are the exact same function as the $45 tool and are somewhat readily available. Just know it's somewhat difficult to find one with the correct spacing, HFT bolt puller is confirmed too small.
Last edited by limitlesscodes; 03-28-2020 at 12:48 PM.
yes it just pops out.
yes, take care around the eshaft but it’s not a difficult job
A thin film of oil on the mating surface and then I place the old seal on top of the new to gently tap it in until it’s flush with the rear plate.
no, you don’t have to drain oil, though it might dribble just a little.
Unless you hit directly into the center of the FW or the end of the eshaft it’s not likely the thrust bearing cared.
Dumb question is this the part? I hope it is because I just ordered it.
Last edited by limitlesscodes; 03-28-2020 at 01:27 PM.
don’t be silly, if you know anything at all about a rotary engine then you understand that if you hit it anywhere the e-shaft is going forward into the thrust bearing, especially when you hit it hard enough to matter and force the situation.
so I was probably wrong about using a bolt in the threaded holes, those appear to be to mount the factory puller, which only costs $45 new and should pop it off easily using just a wrench; no drama, frustration, or potential damage. If somebody bought one and then offered it for sale it and then so on, it could just be passed around by people who need it at minimal cost
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I’m rarely silly on purpose while sober like I am when I’m on a forum. And I bought my first rotary powered car brand new in 1981. in all the FWs I’ve removed I’ve never had an issue...and after tear down on some the stack has even been reused when the owner’s money is tight. Heat is fine but carries risks too. BC the FW carries a lot of heat away there’s a tendency to use too much. Mazda’s SST is the best but even then, especially on one that’s never been off, a shock is needed and properly done the force is lateral, not straight at the thrust bearing stack. I always recommend using a dead low hammer if possible. A ball-peen and wood if not. In either case wailing on it has never been necessary.
Dumb question is this the part? I hope it is because I just ordered it.
Yes. Being careful of the eshaft and the seal seat, pull out the old seal. I have a sturdy plastic hook tool that I use. It might dribble a little oil but just wipe things up clean.
Then just oil up the outer edge of the new seal with some oil on your finger. Hand start it EVENLY in the rear iron. Now place the old seal on top of the new and gently tap the new seal in EVENLY with a small hammer. I have a small body-hammer with a wide flat head that’s easily controllable. Start gently tapping and increase the force gradually until the seal starts moving. When it’s flat and even with the iron you’re done.
At this point I usually go to the shop fridge for a cold one and fire up a cigar. And if I feel like I’m getting silly I stay off my computer.
Before reinstalling the flywheel oil up the inner lip of the seal. On the back side of the flywheel oil up the part that inserts inside your new seal. Actually while the flywheel is out sitting on a shelf I like to oil (a little skim of grease works too) that part just to ward off any possibility of corrosion during storage.
Yes. Being careful of the eshaft and the seal seat, pull out the old seal. I have a sturdy plastic hook tool that I use. It might dribble a little oil but just wipe things up clean.
Then just oil up the outer edge of the new seal with some oil on your finger. Hand start it EVENLY in the rear iron. Now place the old seal on top of the new and gently tap the new seal in EVENLY with a small hammer. I have a small body-hammer with a wide flat head that’s easily controllable. Start gently tapping and increase the force gradually until the seal starts moving. When it’s flat and even with the iron you’re done.
At this point I usually go to the shop fridge for a cold one and fire up a cigar. And if I feel like I’m getting silly I stay off my computer.
Before reinstalling the flywheel oil up the inner lip of the seal. On the back side of the flywheel oil up the part that inserts inside your new seal. Actually while the flywheel is out sitting on a shelf I like to oil (a little skim of grease works too) that part just to ward off any possibility of corrosion during storage.
Should I use 5w20 on the seal or grease. I'd assume grease would hold up better.
^ Not sure if you’re joking or not.
If you’re serious, I mean no insult but maybe you should consider someone else finishing up this job...because the oil’s viscosity makes no real difference. The oil film you put on the seal is just to aid installation and reduce chances of abrading the seal as it seats. No grease...I probably shouldn’t have mentioned it if it confused.
I think you way overstated it, either some grease or oil is ok as long as it has some initial lube, the key is a little goes a long way so don’t over do it.
I prefer my jobs to be done once, especially since I don't have a lift right now .
I'm not sure where to obtain information on when and where to use grease vs oil since I work on primarily electrically focused things, maybe it's still in the service manual. Also guilty of overanalyzing the impact of seemingly minor things, I'm all about getting the job done just figured I'd ask the "pros" how they do it so I don't make an easily avoidable mistake.
Appreciate all the advice, after I have the flywheel resurfaced tomorrow and get the seal it should be pretty easy to fasten it all back together.
Well I like figuring out mechanical things, but electrical? ...shudder....I like dealing with electrical issues about as much as Bin Laden liked kosher pickles. Electrical things seem to require a bigger hat size than I have.
Seems like I’m bogarting on this thread of late, so I’ll leave. Good luck with the project.
This is almost more of a fundamental automotive question than a practical one, I seem to not understand what exactly will ensure full disengagement of the thrust bearing from the clutch cover spring. Is there some form of spring on the rear of the fork that pulls the thrust bearing back when pressure isn't applied to the fork from the slave?
Last edited by limitlesscodes; 04-01-2020 at 02:21 AM.
It feels absolutely incredible!
I bought the car around 45k miles and it the clutch felt alright, a little stiff, but drivable. It certainly got worse in the last year or so to the point I had to adjust the bite point via the master cylinder push rod to near its max and would very rarely get some light slipping. Also it got extremely hard to depress the clutch at some point, not sure why as the clutch gets thinner as it wears so it should need less force to pull it away from the flywheel. My best guess is it was my throwout bearing, see the picture below.
I really wish I had made a proper measurement of the force it took to depress the clutch pedal before the install, it was so light after installation that when I pressed it I actually facepalmed and believed I had somehow introduced air into the lines. When I took it for a test drive the clutch completely disengaged, and the car shifted extremely smooth I attribute it to the grease and new throwout bearing on the cleaned input shaft of the transmission.
Some last minute notes if anyone else installing their clutch makes it this far into the thread: Note this was my experience and just because you have a car with a similar amount of miles (~75k) or that's as old (2004) doesn't mean it was driven the same and you will have the same experience I did.
When removing your shift boot from your shift lever to access the 3 10mm bolts that hold the shift lever in you may find it's impossible to remove the rubber boot. Simply use a very small flathead screwdriver to gently separate the rubber lip from the shift lever and add a couple of drops of diluted soapy water to the top of the shift boot where the shift lever meets the boot in a few places. Then it will twist right off and allow you to access the bolts with ease, same goes for putting it back on, just be extra sure not to add too much soapy water, it's insignificant compared to the amount of grease/oil in the transmission but it's best to avoid it mixing all together.
If the flywheel binds to the e-shaft, as one may expect to happen on a 15 year old car, you will NOT have a fun time if you don't have the flywheel puller that costs $45+shipping. If you're cheap or find yourself without it when it's time to work hammering might get the job done, but note if you hit it extraordinarily hard near the e-shaft you risk damaging an end iron by creating an impression from a bearing and hitting it hard on the edge of the flywheel can't be good for the e-shaft and its bushings. I got around this by just using a small amount of heat from a propane torch near the center of the flywheel while trying to avoid heating the e-shaft itself, then hitting it lightly near the edge with a 4lb sledge and a small block of wood. It popped right out, you may want to consider replacing your rear main seal when doing this as it is made of rubber and you just applied heat to it via the flywheel, after inspecting mine it appeared to be in perfect condition, but I replaced it anyway since it's not too expensive or difficult. I was also onto something when I attempted using a steering wheel puller, it would certainly work great if you could find one with the ability to reach both bolt holes on the flywheel and bought extra bolts/washers for the puller (HF one is too small).
The key on the e-shaft comes out! I must say I was more confused than concerned when I first saw it crooked when trying to put my flywheel back on. Since the key just inserts into a groove on the e-shaft and you can tell easily when the flywheel is over it properly so just double check it.
The autozone 2 prong pilot puller works excellent and is super cheap $15 and the slide hammer is free to borrow. You just have to grind a tiny bit off the edges of the prongs of the puller, I kept test fitting it with the new pilot bearing then filed the edges so it wouldn't scratch anything in the e-shaft. Took maybe 3 minutes to grind and 1 minute to pop the bearing out, don't waster your time with the "bread/grease/paper towel trick", I'm sure it works for some but mine didn't budge.
When re-torquing the flywheel there's a helpful tip I saw mentioned elsewhere regarding using a torque wrench to hit about 150 ft-lb, using a marker to mark 2 neighboring vertices of the nut and their corresponding points on the flywheel then impacting it until the first vertex reaches the second, turning a flat. When torquing the flywheel with the wrench you can thread a transmission bolt into the top right of the transmission bolt holes on the engine and carefully place a wrench between the bolt and a flywheel dowel pin to prevent the motor from turning, don't forget to use a bit of threadlocker on the nut as well.
I'm sure most of this has been mentioned but just wanted anyone too lazy to search the forum to see what worked for me.
Thanks to everyone who helped out, let's hope that's the last time the transmission is separated from the engine until it's rebuild time .
Last edited by limitlesscodes; 04-02-2020 at 03:54 AM.
Last clutch job I did was on a Saturn about 20 years ago. Thought I knew some things, but getting a real education now. So many good points being mentioned. Shop manual is a must, but all it says about re-installing the tranny is "do it in reverse order of removal". Hmmm.... So I have screwed up the first pilot seal trying to get the tranny to line up with the engine. New seal is in, inspected the pilot = all good. I built a yoke to support the rear end of the drive shaft so I don't have to buy the Mazda SST - I'll just turn the drive shaft to engage the input shaft to the friction disc splines. Still not sure how I can get alignment to the pilot bearing to 0.000" so I don't screw up the seal or bearing. I used the alignment tool and fingers to adjust the friction disc as perfectly as possible in the clutch. I also have 3" long 10 mm bolts to help with alignment before the shaft engages the disc or pilot bearing seal. I may also remove the MIU thingy to get a visual on the top of the tranny and help with that bolt.
Any other ideas to help me get it right this time?
Also, inspected the flywheel and see no evidence of wear at all = smooth as a baby's bottom., so left it alone.
I tried the "hydraulic" method to remove the pilot bearing, then the Kleenex method (see youtube!). Don't waste your time, get the removal tool (Advance Auto had one that worked for me - leave a deposit and get cash back when you return it). After screwing the bearing up and jamming it to the back of the bore it was a nightmare getting it pulled out. Resorted to Dremel tool, VERY slowly and carefully. Finally got it free with the puller tool. Sheesh - 5 hours sweat and frustration removing that bugger.
.... I'll just turn the drive shaft to engage the input shaft to the friction disc splines. Still not sure how I can get alignment to the pilot bearing to 0.000" so I don't screw up the seal or bearing. I used the alignment tool...
When you reference an alignment tool are you talking about one of these (used for picture)?
With the pressure plate bolts loosened, insert it thru the pressure plate and clutch disc and into the pilot bearing. With the alignment tool fully seated and left in place, tighten and torque to spec the clutch pressure plate. Then remove the alignment tool. You disc splines should now be perfectly centered on the pilot bearing.
My dear wife helped me get the tranny aligned with the engine and we slipped it into place. Having 3 long bolts screwed into the tranny bolt holes helped a lot to control alignment as we inched it forward. A few tweaks and it slipped home. I had the drive shaft in place in the rear of the tranny to help align the splines, with the aft end of the shaft lying in a little cradle so it was not inclined much - worked like a charm! I got the car buttoned up and again, my dear wife (a petite thing) sat inside the front wheel well with her back against the brake caliper to reach the clutch bleed fitting. I so wish I had a picture... We bled it out well and it seemed to be working. Fired the car up on the jackstands and got it up to 35 through all the gears and it shifted very nicely. Finished the details and test drove it - clutch is a little grabby but it has only about 10 shifts on it. No issues. Sweet !! COVID Project #7 done !!!
And, yes, maybe the hydraulic or kleenex or even the white bread method of removing a pilot bearing may work on a Chevy with a thick sleeve bearing, but the tiny needle bearing in a rotary needs the bearing puller. DO NOT waste your time or effort - just go get one.
I think the 8 I bought recently has one of those in it .....It had an XTD sticker on it! Thanks for the reminder.............. better get rid of it sooner rather than later. To think ..... I.ve been revving it hard too, only saving grace is that the current engine is sooooooo gutless it couldn't pull a chop off a greasy plate. I'll pull the engine out next week.
03-28-2020, 12:31 PM
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