DIY: Mazda Zoom Power Engine Cleaner (Engine Cleaning, Seaform)
03-17-2009, 03:29 PM
#277
I thought it was said that the cleaner itself doesn't smoke? Rather its reaction with carbon is what emits the smoke?
Regardless.. I did this twice and I never got near the amount of smoke others got. I got a light puff of smoke for a few moments on startup and that was it. That was with a cat though. I should try doing it now....
I take care of my car in the sense that I drive it hard and can "feel" it clean
Regardless.. I did this twice and I never got near the amount of smoke others got. I got a light puff of smoke for a few moments on startup and that was it. That was with a cat though. I should try doing it now....
I take care of my car in the sense that I drive it hard and can "feel" it clean
03-17-2009, 08:41 PM
#279
Certified Mazda Tech
How do you know this?
Imo, if you put 8 oz of naptha and light oil into an exhaust system you are going to get great clouds of smoke, even on a brand-new engine. This is how sky-writing planes make smoke -- oil injection into the exhaust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywriting
For those who don't get smoke the only thing I can imagine is that the CAT is dead and not getting hot enough to volatilize the stuff.
Imo, if you put 8 oz of naptha and light oil into an exhaust system you are going to get great clouds of smoke, even on a brand-new engine. This is how sky-writing planes make smoke -- oil injection into the exhaust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywriting
For those who don't get smoke the only thing I can imagine is that the CAT is dead and not getting hot enough to volatilize the stuff.
You mention naptha and light oil...both of which are hydrocarbon based. You then say "into the exhaust" and mention skywriting.
You need to understand the engine decarb process more as it in no way compares to what you've mentioned.
Skywriting literally throws oil into the exhaust manifold, the heat from the manifold itself instantly burns off the oil and becomes smoke, the engine has nothing to do with the reaction, it's simple heat vs oil.
The Zoom Engine Cleaner is obviously inserted through the intake manifold. If you've ever sprayed the cleaner with the hose attached out in the air you'd notice a very "misty" spray from the hose. When you spray this into the manifold the air velocity further helps to atomize the spray. The cleaner also is not based on any type of hydrocarbon, I dont have the contents in front of me but it's most likely alcohol and chemical based. Also as a simple test, take a can of brake cleaner (which is a super diluted form of the decarb spray "basically" not exactly tho) get a lighter and make the can into a flame thrower. You'll notice it doesn't produce much smoke compared to the amount of fluid dispensed and the amount of flame produced.
Now the thing about this cleaner is that it is a deep cleaner, once it has touched any deposits it grabs it and begins it's job. A small amount will eat away and loosen/weaken a large amount of carbon/sludge/etc. The cleaner likes doing it's job and as it's being pushed around the motor it resists "pooling" (in a dirty motor) as due to the "scraping" action of the rotary motor it is equally distributed along the internals of the motor. The cleaner, as i said, does not like pooling, if cleaner is already working on a spot any extra cleaner will look for another spot. Once the cleaner is worn out of it's abilities only then will more cleaner attach to that spot and continue the work.
You'd be amazed at how well distributed the cleaner becomes when it is in the motor.
The same reason why the renesis is difficult to deflood is why the cleaner is so effective. Due to the position of the exhaust ports the cleaner (and your fuel) isn't scraped out by the rotor (which is why it was easier to deflood rx7's, the peripheral exhaust port is basically an open hole that anything in the chamber will be scraped out into another reason why any broken apex seals would eat turbos guaranteed) With the exhaust port setup parallel in the renesis liquid can pool in the chamber needs to be "spun" out, basically splashing it around and around until it all splashes out the side port, obviously more difficult then just pushing it out a huge hole.
Also to note the cleaner itself generally "becomes one" with the carbon and eventually loses it's abilities since it merges with the carbon, thats why any smoke isn't the cleaner since most of it disappears but is actually what is cleaned from your motor.
So now on to my description of the smoke.
Sticky Carbon (sludge also), this is the stuff you can leave a fingerprint in, typically smells of burned oil, and "looks" wet. The cleaners reaction to this is that it penetrates it quickly and completely, generally turning a large amount of it into an actual liquid. Since it is generally largely comprised of oil and oil residue it is now similar to having poured oil directly into your motor and then starting the car. The combustion process will burn off this sticky now liquid carbon, most will get past the cat and walah there's your smokey neighborhood burnout. See how it now resembles your example? Sticky carbon basically goes back to it's base form of oily crap and the heat will burn it completely off now rather then cooking it as it would if it was thick (cleaner helps thin it out since it basically merges with it)
Hard carbon is generally oily deposits in an area where there isn't enough pressure to scrape them off, this could be on the rotor itself (typically on rotors removed from motor you'll see flaky hard carbon sheets), in the seal grooves, and on the chamber surfaces in certain areas. These areas started sticky but were cooked without being bothered and basically solidified. The way the cleaner affects this buildup is going after the weakest spot. As you should know carbon atom chains are among the strongest in the world (diamonds are the hardest material in the world, why?, very nicely arranged carbon molecules), so obviously the cleaner isn't going to do wonders and disintegrate these molecular bonds, so it attacks under the carbon between whatever surface it's on and the bottom of the carbon. It makes this area weak and it can then be scraped off easier, with the cleaner trapped under the carbon it also weakens the base of the hard carbon just enough to make it easier to burn the base and have the whole flake come off. When the flake comes off it is still hard, not liquid, and since it's already been heat cycled the combustion process won't burn it off but the force will throw it out of the chamber where it generally will get lodged in the cat. That's why it won't smoke, nothing is burning up.
Now as to why they say you should get the OMP pumping high is because the cleaner will wipe all the oil film that builds up in the motor off of everything, sometimes a clean motor will smoke simply because of the amount of non-built up oil film that is simply doing it's job.
Personally I wouldn't rec. doing the procedure multiple times in short periods of time as it will make the surfaces more resistant to building up the oil film it needs to prevent scraping the housings and/or damaging the seals. Also lots of carbon builds up in the rotor seal grooves, breaking lots of that carbon loose can be potentially bad, generally only temporarily bad but still enough to cause some head scratching.
As for motors that don't smoke they can be dirty or clean, smoking is dependent on several factors. Easiest to understand is where the cleaned carbon goes and what type of carbon is cleaned. In a new motor the cleaner won't smoke, it's non utilized amounts will be soaked in to the exhaust manifolds, some will stay in the intake, the cat does a good job of catching a lot of it. To get just the cleaner to smoke you'd need to empty the whole can in there and get it to fire up on the first turn of the key.
So like I said, it doesn't matter what YOU see, just understand the cleaner will do it's job, and making the car smoke isn't part of it's job, just a coincidental side effect of certain conditions. I speak from experience. I am actively involved in the mazda side of the rotary engine as well as with the fan community, look at my car collection I personally love the rotary motor's concept, how it achieves it, and the type of results that are possible when built properly. I have been on the groundfloor of many rx8-based updated tech information that's available. I also work in a mazda shop which sees on *average* 120+ service cars everyday (we have 15 techs, with us all not reaching at least 10 hrs a day being a rare event), even if it was only 10% rx8's that's a large amount on a daily basis. I am generally always working on rx8's, the only time someone elses works on an 8 is when it is non-diagnostic and generally basic or when I've already diagnosed the problem and ordered the parts and I'm too busy to personal install it, or if my rx8 line is backed up. This isn't me being some big ego guy, just letting you know why you can believe this information, if anything im probably the most modest down-to-earth laid back rotard around lol.
Hopefully that will assist in understanding the process.
kevin.
Last edited by teknics; 03-17-2009 at 09:03 PM.
03-17-2009, 10:12 PM
#282
Certified Mazda Tech
only way something could clean the exhaust ports decently would be if you could get it to either drip down the plate into the exhaust port (rotor not blocking it) or fill it up to the level of the exhaust port which would be bad lol.
Shouldn't really need to clean them due to the conditions they see at least most of the time. Altho getting them back to smooth and shiny again would increase flow and efficiency slightly, i figure youd have to pull the manifold to do any real cleaning of them.
kevin.
Shouldn't really need to clean them due to the conditions they see at least most of the time. Altho getting them back to smooth and shiny again would increase flow and efficiency slightly, i figure youd have to pull the manifold to do any real cleaning of them.
kevin.
03-19-2009, 06:15 PM
#289
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Everyone likes idiotproof tutorials. Also, people might be curious as to the reason for engine cleaning, its effectiveness, different techniques. It's been an educational thread thus far.
I never really did like him. So how often should this be done?
03-22-2009, 11:50 PM
#294
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Doing it every 3 months seems too frequent of a schedule. I imagine that more like every 10,000 miles would be more acceptable.
03-23-2009, 03:48 AM
#299
Registered
Does he barbecue, mow the lawn, sit outside?
You should also disconnect the cat from the exhaust manifold for better "results".......
(It may save your catalytic converter, if you do this often.)
Oh, and premix some oil in the gas to lube the rotor seals when "helping out your neighbor".
Last edited by Rote8; 03-23-2009 at 03:55 AM.