DIY: Starter Change Swap (for dummies)
11-22-2011, 06:56 AM
#126
I have to ask:
Do I have to replace the starter?
i have an 04 and sometimes it takes 1-3 clicks when it's cold to start but I'm fine with that. If it takes longer, I'll change the starter with one from advanced auto.
I plan on upgrading ignition system to BHR first though and changing plugs.
Do I have to replace the starter?
i have an 04 and sometimes it takes 1-3 clicks when it's cold to start but I'm fine with that. If it takes longer, I'll change the starter with one from advanced auto.
I plan on upgrading ignition system to BHR first though and changing plugs.
Just be sure the starter from advanced auto is a refurbished upgraded starter and not "more of the same" from the 04 and 05.
As you can see in the first post, the upgraded starters are physically larger than the non-upgraded. They're simply stronger starters. Its not that the 04 or 05 units fail, they just don't have the power to crank the engine fast enough to get it started as quickly, especially when very cold.
02-25-2012, 03:53 PM
#128
Thanks for this guide. Took me a while, and a lot of cursing and some CRC to loosen nuts, but new starter is in after laying around for ages. WHAT a difference on my 2004. The new one sounds supersonic compared to the old one, 0,5 sec and a few quick spins and it's started, cold and warm. And I was worried I had compression issues because of the shitty starter. This was a relief 
03-07-2012, 05:07 PM
#129
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Well, buying a new upgraded starter may be a problem. I heard that mazda actually switched back to the weaker starters for the series 2, but I can't confirm this.
A re manufactured starter would probably be fine as long as it is indeed upgraded. (See the part numbers I referenced above)
A re manufactured starter would probably be fine as long as it is indeed upgraded. (See the part numbers I referenced above)
Thanks Sooo much Vyndictive!
I have an 05' RX-8 6-speed man.
I am having the starter replaced this weekend.
I love this "CLUB!" I have learned soo much!
Thanks!!!
03-07-2012, 10:47 PM
#132
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Originally Posted by Vyndictive
Well, buying a new upgraded starter may be a problem. I heard that mazda actually switched back to the weaker starters for the series 2, but I can't confirm this.
A re manufactured starter would probably be fine as long as it is indeed upgraded. (See the part numbers I referenced above)
Well, buying a new upgraded starter may be a problem. I heard that mazda actually switched back to the weaker starters for the series 2, but I can't confirm this.
A re manufactured starter would probably be fine as long as it is indeed upgraded. (See the part numbers I referenced above)
03-07-2012, 11:49 PM
#133
just so everyone knows, you do not want to bump start a rotary engine
the correct rotary starting method is to turn the key to the start position and hold it there for at least an 8 second interval unless the engine starts prior to this
the correct rotary starting method is to turn the key to the start position and hold it there for at least an 8 second interval unless the engine starts prior to this
03-08-2012, 10:58 AM
#136
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No, Mazda did not switch back to the 'weaker Starters', the S2 Starters are Identical to the Starter used most in the Series 1, from December 2004 production or 2005 MY RX-8's~, changes in S2 Starter are the front alloy housing and front shaft and bearing set. Armature, brushes and all other parts are exact same as used on 2005MY~, Mazda also increased the size of OE Battery (CCA) and stand by power reserve capacity/ability in S2's.
Thanks soo much!!
03-08-2012, 11:17 AM
#137
Also, I just replaced my battery with a "Interstate" battery. I've heard these are "good" batteries. How many cranking amps am I looking for to be a "stable" battery for the RX-8 for use all year round, meaning I have all the seasons, Winter, Summer, Fall, Spring?
Thanks soo much!!
Thanks soo much!!
It's what I bought to replace mine three years ago.
03-08-2012, 11:18 PM
#138
Try reading the Mazda literature. Many of the early flooding problems were attributed to people only holding the key in the starting on position for a second or two in cold weather conditions. Mazda specifically states to hold the key in the on starting position for up to 8 seconds before releasing it if the engine doesn't start.
03-08-2012, 11:51 PM
#139
Try reading the Mazda literature. Many of the early flooding problems were attributed to people only holding the key in the starting on position for a second or two in cold weather conditions. Mazda specifically states to hold the key in the on starting position for up to 8 seconds before releasing it if the engine doesn't start.
03-09-2012, 05:58 PM
#141
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Yep...it was the "Starter!" :D
Vyndictive---Thank you soo much for the info on the starter! Just got the new upgrade starter. I had the old non-upgraded starter for my 05', manual trans, with 36,000 miles. (See picture below of upgrade starter, for manual trans, part number)(You were "right on"!)
And now with a "New" battery of 690 cranking amps and 550 CCA. It's starting up like a dream! It's never started this way since owning it...only since 9/2011. I can go to a gas station or anywhere without having to wait for it to restart now! Woo!!
FYI---And It is Winter where I live, I've heard during Winter months to make sure your ignition system is in
well working order<--important, of course, (And why not make sure it's good during the entire year) :D
However, before the starter was an issue, I did all of the below to keep it well tuned.
What's been done the maintenance recommended with the 36,000 mileage I have on it...
1. Of course, Compression test before purchase (Good compression hot and cold)
2. De-carb (Yep..flooded it once),
3. (After I flooded it, then did tune-up) replaced plugs, wires, ignition coil<--(CEL code Misfire cylinder 2), air filter, cabin filters
4. New original gas cap (The Stant cap that was on previously wasn't sealing right. Got a CEL almost every start up)
5. Coolant flush and fill
6. New Battery
7. Trans seal replaced (Leaking), trans flush and fill
8. 2 oil changes with 5w20
9. Neutral switch replaced (Leaking and RPM's were up to 3000 with start up)
10. New upgraded starter. <---Seriously awesome!
Sweeet!! Thank you! Thank you!
And now with a "New" battery of 690 cranking amps and 550 CCA. It's starting up like a dream! It's never started this way since owning it...only since 9/2011. I can go to a gas station or anywhere without having to wait for it to restart now! Woo!! FYI---And It is Winter where I live, I've heard during Winter months to make sure your ignition system is in
well working order<--important, of course, (And why not make sure it's good during the entire year) :D
However, before the starter was an issue, I did all of the below to keep it well tuned.
What's been done the maintenance recommended with the 36,000 mileage I have on it...
1. Of course, Compression test before purchase (Good compression hot and cold)
2. De-carb (Yep..flooded it once),
3. (After I flooded it, then did tune-up) replaced plugs, wires, ignition coil<--(CEL code Misfire cylinder 2), air filter, cabin filters
4. New original gas cap (The Stant cap that was on previously wasn't sealing right. Got a CEL almost every start up)
5. Coolant flush and fill
6. New Battery
7. Trans seal replaced (Leaking), trans flush and fill
8. 2 oil changes with 5w20
9. Neutral switch replaced (Leaking and RPM's were up to 3000 with start up)
10. New upgraded starter. <---Seriously awesome!
Sweeet!! Thank you! Thank you!
Last edited by Lizard2974; 03-09-2012 at 06:03 PM.
04-17-2012, 11:00 PM
#144
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Does anybody actually know the specs of the replacement motor that make it "beefier" than the original? In other words, are there any characteristic that cause the replacement starter to actually spin the pinion at faster rpm? Or is everyone here just guessing the replacement starter is "better"? The TSB offers no reason why the replacement is necessary, just says to do it if you have the old N3H1.
I know the starter is bigger but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Are there more coils, more turns, bigger magnets ?
It seems the original and the new motor are both 2kW.
It seems the new motor has 13 teeth on the pinion versus the 11 teeth on the original. Perhaps this is a difference?
If anyone has spec data sheets to compare these motors, please post them as this can tell a lot. I am reluctant to invest in a new starter if it physically is no different than the original (aside from size). My original starter "works" but I do seem to be having hard time starting the car lately.
Thanks
I know the starter is bigger but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Are there more coils, more turns, bigger magnets ?
It seems the original and the new motor are both 2kW.
It seems the new motor has 13 teeth on the pinion versus the 11 teeth on the original. Perhaps this is a difference?
If anyone has spec data sheets to compare these motors, please post them as this can tell a lot. I am reluctant to invest in a new starter if it physically is no different than the original (aside from size). My original starter "works" but I do seem to be having hard time starting the car lately.
Thanks
04-18-2012, 10:39 PM
#145
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Okay, I think I have figured this out. It's all about gear ratio. If both the original and the new motor have the same performance spec of 2kW, it is incorrect to say the new motor is more powerful. It would have no more power or torque than the original. However, if the new motor has 13 teeth on the pinion (and from what I've searched this seems to be the case) and the old motor has 11 teeth, this changes the gear ratio between the pinion and the flywheel. By adding two teeth to the pinion (while the number of teeth on the flywheel stays fixed), for every one rotation of the pinion, you rotate the flywheel by two extra teeth. This causes the engine to crank at a higher rpm.
Here is an example to illustrate:
Original Starter
11 teeth
Flywheel
125 teeth
Gear Ratio
1:11.36
New Starter
13 teeth
Flywheel
125 teeth
Gear Ratio
1:9.61
Lets say the starter is spinning at 2500 rpm.
using simple algebra, we can figure out what speed the flywheel would be spinning for these different gear ratios:
Old starter:
1/2500 = (1/11.36) / x
solve for x , x = 220 rpm
New starter:
1/2500 = (1/9.61) / x
solve for x , x = 260 rpm
As you can see with the new starter, the motor spins 18.18% faster than with the old starter.
Here is an example to illustrate:
Original Starter
11 teeth
Flywheel
125 teeth
Gear Ratio
1:11.36
New Starter
13 teeth
Flywheel
125 teeth
Gear Ratio
1:9.61
Lets say the starter is spinning at 2500 rpm.
using simple algebra, we can figure out what speed the flywheel would be spinning for these different gear ratios:
Old starter:
1/2500 = (1/11.36) / x
solve for x , x = 220 rpm
New starter:
1/2500 = (1/9.61) / x
solve for x , x = 260 rpm
As you can see with the new starter, the motor spins 18.18% faster than with the old starter.
Last edited by breezy_rx8; 04-23-2012 at 03:36 PM.
04-20-2012, 04:06 PM
#146
Well, just upgraded to a R3 starter, and difference is a lot faster than 18%. Power rating is different as well. My user manual says 1,4kW and 1,8kW if i remember correct.
ANYWAY: I changed starter today and all my problems are solved - for the moment at least.
Yippydoo
ANYWAY: I changed starter today and all my problems are solved - for the moment at least.
Yippydoo
04-20-2012, 09:11 PM
#147
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Starter
Manual transmission 12 V - 1.4 kW
Automatic transmission 12 V - 1.8 kW
So, if the new starters are 2kW and on top of this they have two more teeth on the pinion, that equates to a lot more power/torque as well as a faster spinning engine (thus more compression). Very sweet.
It would be nice if somebody could verify the new starter has 13 teeth and the old one 11... I haven't bought one yet. First trying the juicier battery.
04-21-2012, 07:41 AM
#148
You are right. I checked the owners manual and the manual starter is only 1.4kW!
Starter
Manual transmission 12 V - 1.4 kW
Automatic transmission 12 V - 1.8 kW
So, if the new starters are 2kW and on top of this they have two more teeth on the pinion, that equates to a lot more power/torque as well as a faster spinning engine (thus more compression). Very sweet.
It would be nice if somebody could verify the new starter has 13 teeth and the old one 11... I haven't bought one yet. First trying the juicier battery.
Starter
Manual transmission 12 V - 1.4 kW
Automatic transmission 12 V - 1.8 kW
So, if the new starters are 2kW and on top of this they have two more teeth on the pinion, that equates to a lot more power/torque as well as a faster spinning engine (thus more compression). Very sweet.
It would be nice if somebody could verify the new starter has 13 teeth and the old one 11... I haven't bought one yet. First trying the juicier battery.
motor power has nothing to do with hw many teeth it has. even if u have 100 teeth, the power output would be the same and it will not make your engine spin faster.
even the so called 2.0kw motor does not mean its always 2.0kw, my replacement is tested to have around 1.7kw. but still better than my worn out updated starter.
the 2.0kw is just a "up to" rating.
Last edited by nycgps; 04-21-2012 at 08:14 AM.
04-21-2012, 10:36 AM
#149
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no ....
motor power has nothing to do with hw many teeth it has. even if u have 100 teeth, the power output would be the same and it will not make your engine spin faster.
even the so called 2.0kw motor does not mean its always 2.0kw, my replacement is tested to have around 1.7kw. but still better than my worn out updated starter.
the 2.0kw is just a "up to" rating.
motor power has nothing to do with hw many teeth it has. even if u have 100 teeth, the power output would be the same and it will not make your engine spin faster.
even the so called 2.0kw motor does not mean its always 2.0kw, my replacement is tested to have around 1.7kw. but still better than my worn out updated starter.
the 2.0kw is just a "up to" rating.
You can learn about gear ratios here:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/gears.htm
Or take a physics lesson.
04-21-2012, 10:44 AM
#150
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It makes sense that if Mazda increased the number of teeth on the pinion from 11 to 13, they would also boost the motor performance a bit to compensate.
It's just like a bicycle. Change to a higher gear, it's harder to pedal but you go faster. To compensate for the "harder to pedal" part, you need to use a little more muscle.
It's just like a bicycle. Change to a higher gear, it's harder to pedal but you go faster. To compensate for the "harder to pedal" part, you need to use a little more muscle.