nycgps

iTrader: (1)

sSir I know how gear works, thx for telling me something I knew yrs ago, Captain Obvious.

point is, Mazda underestimate the original starter's power. That's why they increased it, and that's why it turn faster

STILL DON'T GET IT ?

bravo dude. I don't need physics class, but me think you need special ed. ya ?

ASH8

Hate to spoil the party, but the ring gear on the MT flywheel has not change at all in all series RX-8's, in fact it is nearly 30 years old. #N318-11-502A

First used on the FC and all FD and all FE(SE)..

I am having trouble understanding that they can add extra teeth to the Starter Pinion Gear when the teeth on the FW has not changed...

amazon_jade

Not sure if serious or troll

AAaF

I would not if I were you. I replaced mine with a new and it did no change whatsoever. 180$ down the drain.....

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Oh no u didnt, u know why u and me dont understand? Cuz we skipped our physics class in school ...

breezy_rx8

Number of teeth on the Flywheel did not change. Number of teeth on the pinion apparently increased from 11 to 13. Since they increased the number of teeth on the pinion, it makes it more difficult for the starter to get the flywheel going full speed. So to compensate for that, they also boosted the starter motor's power from 1.4kW to 2.0kW.


Here is the new pinion:
http://cn.oemol.com/oem/oem_detail_s...1818X25&lan=en

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Breezy, I think you have it backwards.

If the pinion teeth increased from 11 to 13, then for every rotation of the pinion shaft, the flywheel turns "13 teeth" of rotation, instead of 11. If the pinion is rotating at the same speed and the flywheel's teeth count hasn't changed, then the flywheel has made more rotation in the same space of time.

= faster spin.

breezy_rx8

Correct. What is backwards about this? That is the same thing I have been saying.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Hmm, I re-read your posts again, and I think I was taking the wrong perspective, probably the same as Ash and NYC.

You have "Geared up" the starter, and just like starting in 2nd instead of first, it can hit higher speeds, but has a more difficult time accelerating the flywheel to those speeds.

Your point hasn't been about the speed at all, but that it requires more torque / juice, hence the increase in kw rating.

My mistake.

breezy_rx8

Thanks but it is too late. I bought a new battery from Costco. But it was only $65 for a 800CA (640CCA) battery. My old battery was only a 690CA (550CCA). Great thing about the Costco battery is 3-year warranty and FULL replacement value if it dies before then.

Anyhow, with the new battery it is starting easier. Similar results to this guy:

However, I think I am gonna go ahead and get the new starter also since I'm convinced with the combination of more power and a gear ratio to get the motor spinning at faster rpm, it will improve starting even more.

breezy_rx8

You have "Geared up" the starter, and just like starting in 2nd instead of first, it can hit higher speeds, but has a more difficult time accelerating the flywheel to those speeds.
^^^^^^
EXCELLENT analogy!

Yes, by "gearing up" the starter (which will cause the FW to spin faster), it's harder on the starter so they also had to "beef up" the horsepower of the starter as well.

My background is in engineering in case anybody was wondering. Not sure how many other propeller heads we have in the audience. But I certainly want to make sure everyone is in agreement on how the new starter ultimately causes the motor to spin faster while starting.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

^ I think that they are just taking the same perspective that I did initially, thinking you were commenting on starter speed, not the strain being placed on the starter.

Just a friendly tip about it though, I'd recommend re-reading your posts from a perspective of a non-engineer. You leap through a few assumptions and that is likely the reason why the miscommunication happened.

breezy_rx8

I don't know if the speed of the starter itself increases. The new starter has more torque apparently. But I would need to see the spec sheets of both the new and old electric motors to see what the max rpm of each motor is. It could be very similar or even the same. But even assuming the old and new starter both spin at the same max rpm, the two extra teeth on the new starter cause the flywheel (engine) to spin faster. Since it is more difficult to get the flywheel spinning with 13 teeth on the pinion than with 11, they increased the torque of the new starter motor as well.

This is my best understanding of what is going on given we have very little information from Mazda on the design of the new & old starter.

breezy_rx8

Out of curiosity, how did you have your replacement tested to 1.7kW? What was the RPM at 1.7kW?

One way of characterizing an electric motor (the starter) for power is to connect it to a special dyno that has a braking feature. The dyno is set to a certain RPM limit and the braking feature prevents the motor from spinning any faster than the limit. It then reports the torque produced by the motor at this RPM. By collecting several data points, you can acquire the "torque-speed curve" of the motor. And then convert torques to power

Anyhow, the above is pretty sophisticated characterization. Was curious how you obtained a rating on your 2kW motor...

ASH8

I thought I should communicate accurate details on MT RX-8 Starters..

Don't like it when wrong Part Numbers are listed and then become the "gospel truth" by Sellers of said goods...a Mazda Dealer Spare Parts has the right details if interpreted correctly..and remember the owner or buyer must give out correct info and or VIN #.

Now as I said for ALL Manual Trans Rotaries made after 1985 has the exact same Ring Gear by Part Number is used on Mazda Rotary Fly Wheels.

For Series 2 MT Starter (N3R3-18-400)..
I located the OEM new one I have in my private collection and took some pics.
BUT, I can not upload because I have a 'driver problem' since I updated Windows SP1, for some reason it removed my Camera Drive...very annoyed....!!!
Anyway....the OE Series 2 Starter 'Pinion Gear' has 14 teeth in total...not 11 or 13 , but 14 teeth.

See the Mazda EPC on S2 Starter,\/\/\/ (below), now all the parts highlighted in RED are all new for the Series 2 (N3R3), BUT all other Starter Parts for the S2 MT Starter are exactly from the S1 Starter Motor used from December 1, 2004 or 2005MY Production.

ASH8

As I have also said before "officially" via Mazda EPC the Series 1 Starters changed/upgraded from December 1 2004 (2005 MY) during line production in Japan...with the N318 Pinion and larger Armature/Coil, it's Housing, Brush Set, Bolts etc.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

The reman starter came with a spec sheet in the box, tells me exactly what they did, max rpm, test that they did, etc.

Maybe i should scan it in when i get home tonight. Not sure if its gonna help cuz all starters are different

breezy_rx8

ASH,

How you are obtaining the information on the various starters and part numbers?

The pinion I found was from Jim Ellis Mazda website which calls out part number N31818X25. The website I referenced earlier states this pinion has 13 teeth.
http://www.jimellismazdaparts.com/sh...&searchString=

The autozone starters should have 13 teeth for most models 2006-2008. The 2004 model says it has 11 teeth.

It seems there was the original 2004 starter which had 11 teeth on the pinion. The next starter has 13 teeth. Apparently the follow-on to that has 14 teeth? I assume you counted the teeth on your starter to come up with this? Can your 14-tooth starter fit on a 2004 RX-8?

I have searched the forums but haven't really found any consistent answer on which starters are which. Seems most people are guessing. Perhaps you can enlighten us?

ASH8

That Jim Ellis site is pretty clunky, I could not even find a Part Number only 'Search' Function..
I use Montgomery Mazda..

Where I get my info...
Well I use Mazda genuine EPC's..I am ex Mazda Parts guy.

I am talking a Starter for Series II RX-8 MT.
N3R3-18-400 is the Genuine #, I have the genuine part brand new not a reman which Mazda USA changed to # N3R3-18-400-R00, the R00 meaning reconditioned, but I have no doubt the remans are the correct 14 tooth Starter for S2's.

Yes, I counted the teeth , I have some pics , but cant get them into my PC..GRRR, Bloody Microsoft..updates!...it is held on with 2 bolts about 6-7 inches apart.

If you look at the front Bolt Housing EPC Parts pic above it is not quite accurate as it shows a semi covered (180 degree cover) alloy flange, where in actual fact my Starter does not have it, in other words the 14 teeth cog is exposed 100%.

Here I found a pic from Pauls, Mazmart, this is his 04-08 Starter...
They have the covered area at the front..(see red marking).


I forgot, I had some other new starters here, I bought them for my Dealer friend in Germany, they have been waiting here for a few years (waiting for him to buy an old Mazda here in Australia so I can ship parts in trunk, he has the best collection of old Mazda's outside of MMC Hiroshima museum), anyway the non genuine new starters I have here are the same as the pic of Mazmarts, they are 13 teeth and has the following label, 017047-53002S RX8 13T CCW 12V 1.7KW, and a few other numbers.

ASH8

Just found another new non genuine Starter I am holding here for Germany, I thought the two were the same but on proper inspection they are not.

This one says 012005-53002S 12A 11T CCW 12V 1.2KW ( I think it is for RX-2, 3 12A), and is a 11 tooth...it is shorter body (armature) and front housing shape and gear exposure is about 100 degrees.

breezy_rx8

Just finished installing the Autozone 19473 starter:
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...4_192299_5467_

What a difference! I confirmed this starter (made for 2006 RX8) has 13 teeth. I confirmed the old starter has 11 teeth (original 2004 starter).

Well, I am glad the results match the research. It is like a push button instant start compared to the old starter. Even better than I had hoped for.

To anyone tackling this project, there is not a lot involved. The toughest part for me was loosening the bolts off the old starter. Top bolt would not budge until I let some WD-40 soak on it for 10 mins and then gave it one last heave.

P.S. The Autozone starter is really just a reman Mitsubishi motor. Same exact motor you get from Mazda. Thing looked brand new, I can't tell it is re-manufactured.

ASH8

Good news..

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Any new starter will turn faster than your old, worn out starter.

all Reman starters look brand new. Cuz first thing they do is they "clean" the body. AZ did replace the bushes with new ones, dunno haven't seen one myself.

I skip the Autozone one and bought a Beck and Arnley Reman, cuz I had some horrible experience with AZ's Reman stuff. I mean they back it with a life time warranty, but what's the point of the warranty if u have to bring it back every year or so ? (unless it's our COILS. LOL) so I'm ok with a Beck and Arnley Reman for now, at least they back it with 36K miles and 3 yrs, I think that's fair enough.

RxG8ors

so just to make sure here... can i purchase a starter from a 2006 model and have it fit into my 2004 model? if i find an 06 rx8 at a junkyard and take the starter from it.. would that be ok? if so, what other years would i be able to use? i am looking on line and seeing alot of starters that "fit" model years 04-08.. but i dont want to get one of those and not have it be the upgrade or what not. do the 06-08 model years all have the upgrade?

RxG8ors

also, the post from breezy_rx8 with the link in it.. 3 posts up.. " http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...4_192299_5467_ ", i checked the link and the item shown is stating that it will not fit for an 04 model. sorry if i am a simpleton.. but i do not want to waste any $ on things..