wcs

iTrader: (2)

Yes, Tuner Pro maps can be locked and will not load in to ATR nor can you do live logging with ATR while a locked Tuner PRO map is loaded in to the ECU.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

seems a bit odd that you have handpicked all this turbo setup stuff out, yet don't even have the slightest inkling on this particular subject

MarkAngelo

I've been doing some research and I have also spoken with Scott (Mazsport) and Kane (PPOE tuning). Just trying to figure out which way to go. Should I go with Mazda Maniac for the tuning and not be able to see the MAP, or should I go with Scott @ RX8Performance, who would probably send me unlocked maps so I can see the changes.

If I go with MM, I would probably get the COBB AP with tuning package because of the price difference, so I can use the other COBB AP on my AT RX-8.. but I wonder if Mazda Maniac will give me some pretuned AT MAPS to play with, but use my tuning and calibration for my MT RX-8..

Attached is the working MAP that reached 300whp conservatively on a mustang dyno at around 13-14psi with the current FI setup and fuel support.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

Dont see the attachment Mark?

MarkAngelo

Woops.. The forum does not allow .ptm, so I just threw the MAP in a zip file... Thanks for taking the time to view my tune file.. If possible, direct me to the tables that need work to come up with a reliable setup.. I do intend to seek professional help, but a huge part of me really wants to learn and understand this to a certain extent.. I'm not trying to be a pro and start tuning people's cars.. I just want to learn this because I've learned Uberdata before and successfully tuned a 90 civic hatch back with an integra LS B18 engine swap...OBD-1 ECU tuning done with Uberdata, utilizing a MAP (pressure) based fuel mapping. I especially found the timing retard adjust feature per pound of boost.. I retarded timing about 1/2 a degree per pound of boost to remain on the conservative side..

Some tables look awkward to me, such as the "calc load max" is at 2.00 across the board, but I think they did that just to avoid the ECU reverting back to stock timing setting if calculated load gets above a certain threshold.. I know we have to set it high enough to avoid that, but is there anything wrong with setting it at 2.00 across the board?

Thanks,
Mark

p.s. This MAP saw 300WHP on 13-14PSI of boost utilizing a mustang dyno...

wcs

iTrader: (2)

My version of ATR can't open that file, sorry.

FazdaRX_8

iTrader: (1)

there are certainly some odd things about it, but if it works it works.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

LOL. Holy Crap!
Have fun with that.

MarkAngelo

Hi there,

Ok, I've done lots of research about AccessTuner Race, tuning strategies, MAF, Calculated Load, asked several knowledgeable people about RX8 tuning for FI, I studied different known 13B-MSP timing maps for boost and read the tuning guide about 20 times, front to back... Did you write that Jeff? If so, thanks for such an informative packet. I've had previous tuning experience using open source software such as Uberdata, socketing and chipping OBD-1 ECUs with a 28 pin eprom to be able to tune for boost. However, this was all MAP based tuning, and the tables were straight forward and understandable. I've had limited experience tuning a MAF based setup, but am familiar with it because my 21psi eclipse tuning was MAF / MAP / Load based, however I had help from a guy named Jeff who used to run a calibration and tuning online shop for DSM vehicles.

I find MAF tuning a bit more complex than MAP, but once you begin to see the big picture and realize the potential of calculated load, MAF calibration and properly scaling your Calculated Load tables, as well as Baro Compensation because FI basically creates it's own atmospheric conditions, also IAT to ensure our multiplier is set to properly compensate for denser colder air, or thinner hotter air and lastly the VE tables which also acts like a "multiplier" in lower calculated load regions below 1.25...

As you probably know, I started with a tune that caused MM to say the below quote.. The tune was done by www.SecretServicesAuto.com in houston and it's kind of a sad tune. Once I began to understand the logic, they basically forced the ECU to open loop.. but I don't think they scaled the Calculated load values properly because they had the fuel map Calc Load values all the way to 3.75!! Thinking they took what was said in the tuning guide a little too literal..

I've reviewed the data logs and created a base map utilizing the information that I've learned over the past couple of weeks researching and reading.

Please don't flame me for trying this, but I am determined to try this out my self with very little boost at first, between 4-7 psi... I'm already saving up my pennies for MM's future seminar, so I can learn more.

Thanks for the kind support friends.

Best regards,
Mark

wcs

iTrader: (2)

Hey Mark,
First, it's not if you can afford Jeff's seminar, it's trying to get enough people together to make it worth the time then coordinating the time. I was on his list I think for almost 2 years before we could finally get enough people. His training is very much worth every penny IMO.

I've got new questions, I might even be talked in to taking it again.

Second:
Try even lower PSI, like 0-3 seriously. Aim small, fail small. The stock tune will handle 1~2 psi on it's own.

A quick look at the tune shows that they modified the first cell on the Maf calibration. It's a common practice around here not to change at least the first, maybe the first two cells of the Maf Calibration table.
The belief is (by those with way more hands on experience) that changing these parameters can sometime cause the ECU to behave erratically (maybe a bug in the software <shrug>). Besides that your Maf ideally will never see g/s values that low .. so why change them.

Seeing the Max Calc Load, Max Calc Load-Baro Comp and Max Calc Load - IAT Comp all max'd at 2 doesn't seem right either

Arnie_O

Had a quick skim over this thread but will have a more in depth look later but is this software even still available?
This Cobb stuffs all new to me but i see that aparently the tuning software had been made available but the download link on page one does not lead to anything.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Go to the Cobb site...you send them some data and they email you a working link

Not sure it will work on your ECU though..IIR it is USDM ECU's onlly

wcs

iTrader: (2)

You need to buy the Cobb AP from MazdaManiac he is the only retailer.
http://www.mazdamaniac.com/cobb/accessport.htm

You can download the ATR software to do tuning once you have the Cobb AP
http://www.accessecu.com/accessport/mazda/RX-8Maps.html

Old Maps from Cobb can be found here
http://www.accessecu.com/accessport/mazda/RX-8Maps.html

Arnie_O

Thanka Guys...
I have been offered a deal on a Cobb unit thats already in the UK. though it was bought for a JDM car will this work with my EUDM? I have plugged it in and its recognized my car and actually saved its Map data to the AP that i have not downloaded to my PC.

My problem is that I have a seriously modified 4 port engine thats still under warranty and am looking at the possibility of getting it tuned by my builder over here (Hayward Rotary) thus keeping my warranty ect. though i really cant wait another 18 months for it to expire lol.

Its a little annoying that Cobb dont seem to be bothered about releasing a Race tuner that supports markets other than the US... its ok for you guys but a real **** for us...
The Tuning (mapping) scene is quite new here in the UK and to have somthing as powerful as the Cobb with the software to tune would be excelent.

Arnie_O

Just looked and your access tuner race link is taking me to the basic maps list

wcs

iTrader: (2)

http://www.cobbtuning.com/Mazda-Acce...-p/atr-maz.htm

wcs

iTrader: (2)

Is this 4 port an automatic? What year? What mods?

I'm really curious on how "getting it tuned" keeps your warranty?

Unless you're FI I wouldn't expect much in the way of HP gains when you hit the dyno.
Maybe 150~160 hp at the wheels if it's an Auto and 190-205 if it's a manual

fossumja

iTrader: (4)

I apologize in advanced if this has been covered somewhere, but I've searched and read everything I could find and could not come up with an answer:

Can someone explain how the ECU uses the various maps to come up with a target fuel delivery for a given set of conditions? From the ATR help file, it would seem that you start with the A/F table for a given range of gear, RPM and load, multiply that by the "Fuel VE" table (for the same RPM and load), add/subtract any LTFT, and that should give the open loop "target" AFR. For closed loop you would also multiply by the CL modifier table and add/subtract the STFT. If everything were calibrated perfectly and the O2 sensor were accurate, you should end up with your starting lambda value in the exhaust.

First problem I see with this is it makes no sense. Since "calculated load" is not corrected for ambient, it will be higher at cold, high pressure days meaning you will run lean in Denver and rich in Seattle. It would make more sense to schedule AFR as a function of load/max load or at least have some ambient correction like is done for the max load case. Also, since the "Fuel VE" table has the same inputs as the base map, why not make them one table?

Second problem is that the observed data doesn't support this functionality. The car doesn't run any richer when the temperature is cooler. Also it seems to run to different O2 vales (AFRs) in 4th gear vs 2nd, or if you put a load on the engine by driving uphill or riding the brakes. This leads me to believe something else is going on. I've seen some mention of a time-in-gear factor as well as a suggestion that load over max plays into things, but no clear explanation.


Thanks,
Jim

Flashwing

The aspects you're talking about are built into the calculation for calculated load. It does measure ambient, in the form of intake air temperature. There is a calculated load IAT correction table that serves as a multiple of calculate load based on intake temps. If your CL is 100%, the IAT tables will multiply it by 1.06 and then the ECU performs a look up on the fuel table for a 106% cell.

Same goes for pressure. There is a baro adjustment table that performs the same function.

If you look at the fuel tables as Mazda designed them, true 1:1 air/fuel matching was never the intention. They cared only about results at the tail pipe.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Think Mass Air Flow...and it is easier to wrap your head around it

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

It makes no sense because you have it wrong

fossumja

iTrader: (4)

So you are saying where the air/fuel tables say "calculated load" this is not actually calculated load?

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

It is the calculated load based on how the tables are structured. You don't have control over all of the tables. You are focusing on mostly irrelevant stuff relative to tuning the system for NA. Just calibrate your MAF and adjust your AFRs to provide the numbers you are looking for. A basic tune is that simple.

ShellDude

iTrader: (12)

there are a couple other "minor" things you can do with an NA tune beyond proper MAF and AFR tuning.

-OMP Rate
-Fan Temps & Hysteresis
-Idle (particularly if you bog with AC on)

And if you do the work yourself, aka unlocked map, you can then create a couple variations for things like:

-Valet mode (rev limit set to 2.5k)
-Anti theft mode (rev limit even lower and/or injector scaling)

It certainly becomes a pain to swap out maps but I've done it for extended airport parking lot stays.

fossumja

iTrader: (4)

OK, let’s try this again. I recorded a 2nd gear pull on a warm afternoon when IATs were approaching 100F. A couple days later I made the same run early in the morning with IAT~60F. At 6000 RPM on the warm day, the data logged “calculated load” was 94. On the cool run it was 100 at the same RPM. Indicated AFR was approximately the same for both runs.

So the question is, to adjust AFR at this point, do I target the cell at .94, at 1.00, or (correcting both to 77F) at .97? Obviously I can just adjust all of the cells in the column an equal percentage, but this seems like a pretty crude way to tune a system that Mazda has obviously invested a lot of time in to make indecipherable.