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Usually the timing lock function is to allow you to lock the timing to a set value to setup the ECU.
Is that what you are talking about??
I think it makes it so when it adjust the timing it doesn't top out past the limits of -5 and 10. At least when I am watching the sensor go in Eugene it fluctuates and when it locks it still fluctuates.
did the pedal calibration and it seemed to have a slightly better idle. Locked the timing at -5 and 20 with the rotary timing dropdown and also seems to be better. Oddly enough, I am not sure what idle afr's I should be looking for. It was sitting at 14.1 but shows my target afr is at 11.8. I am not sure what this value is used for.
Also for anyone curiosity, i attached my log file maybe someone can spot something I am missing (which is pretty likely)
1. The log file I opened had 0 vac. Are you sure you have your MAP sensor correctly hooked up or have it set right in Eugene. On speed density tuning, a bad MAP sensor = impossible tuning. Make sure your car can read vacuum before proceeding any further.
2. When you lock timing in Eugene/Wari, it is only to align your trigger wheel. There is a method to do this with a timing gun. Again, worrying about timing without a proper MAP sensor is moot. From the factory my trigger angles were only off about 6 degrees which isn't enough to make the car not run.
Once you get the MAP sensor reading, you can start playing with the VE table to match the commanded readings and then worry about aligning your timing once you car is idling at 14-14.5:1 A/F,
(Disclaimer I didn't read enough to know your setup, assuming its a mild NA setup)
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 07-07-2019 at 07:13 AM.
1. The log file I opened had 0 vac. Are you sure you have your MAP sensor correctly hooked up or have it set right in Eugene. On speed density tuning, a bad MAP sensor = impossible tuning. Make sure your car can read vacuum before proceeding any further.
2. When you lock timing in Eugene/Wari, it is only to align your trigger wheel. There is a method to do this with a timing gun. Again, worrying about timing without a proper MAP sensor is moot. From the factory my trigger angles were only off about 6 degrees which isn't enough to make the car not run.
Once you get the MAP sensor reading, you can start playing with the VE table to match the commanded readings and then worry about aligning your timing once you car is idling at 14-14.5:1 A/F,
(Disclaimer I didn't read enough to know your setup, assuming its a mild NA setup)
Hi Stroker, Thanks for the input. I haven't messed with it in a bit but I assumed something was off and that would make sense. I will check around the vacuum line and see about playing with the MAP sensor. I should be able to bench test the MAP sensor just simply plugged into a pc correct? Obviously apply mild vacuum.
EDIT: Stroker thank you so much for the help. I replaced both vacuum sensors since the person I bought it from said the EXT sensor was toast due to a lot moisture getting to it. Now the MAP sensor is goofed but I switched to the EXT sensor and its running great! I knew it had to be small but I see now in Eugene you need to test the sensors when it is plugged to the car. Bench testing does not work.
Have you tried using the internal map sensor on the Adaptronics unit??? Anyway, if Eugene is now seeing a correct MAP signal (vacuum), you should be able to see the cursor moving around in Fuel MAP 1. You should be able to trim fuels in the VE table depending upon the commanded reading.
Once you car is warmed up, If you car is idling at say 1000 RPMs and 18 mm of HG, and the box in the VE table is 60, your commanded reading is 14:1 and actual reading is 12.5:1 (assuming your wide-band A/F is dialed in and functioning normally), you would just decrease the the value of the box in the VE table from 60 to 55 which is about a 8-10% lean out. Try to bring your actual readings to the commanded value. Car should slowly drive better as your tune our all the rich and leans spot. Slowly up the RPMs as everything is tuned correctly. WOT should be the last thing you tune...
Have you tried using the internal map sensor on the Adaptronics unit??? Anyway, if Eugene is now seeing a correct MAP signal (vacuum), you should be able to see the cursor moving around in Fuel MAP 1. You should be able to trim fuels in the VE table depending upon the commanded reading.
Once you car is warmed up, If you car is idling at say 1000 RPMs and 18 mm of HG, and the box in the VE table is 60, your commanded reading is 14:1 and actual reading is 12.5:1 (assuming your wide-band A/F is dialed in and functioning normally), you would just decrease the the value of the box in the VE table from 60 to 55 which is about a 8-10% lean out. Try to bring your actual readings to the commanded value. Car should slowly drive better as your tune our all the rich and leans spot. Slowly up the RPMs as everything is tuned correctly. WOT should be the last thing you tune...
I am using the internal MAP sensor in the Adaptronic; just the EXT port instead of the MAP port. Will need to replace the other then. Eugene always saw the correct 101 kPa (offset of like 79 or 80 if I remember right) and i did see the cursor moving around in the Map Table.
"18 mm of HG" what is HG? Sorry don't have it in front of me, I will need to look more in Eugene.
For the A/F I am using the stock wideband (or is it a narrowband? I saw a post somewhere a while ago saying the 8 came stock with a wideband?) I that set to analog and wideband in the sensor 1. I don't have a log but a video on my phone that shows after it is warmed, its target rpm is 900 while idling around 870-890 and AFR target is 13.5:1 and actual is 13.9:1
Hg is just shorthand for mercury, its just a vacuum reading. Looks like Adaptronics uses inches of mercury, so the y-axis is -18 in Hg, the x-axis is 1000 RPMs.
I have never tried to tune on the factory wide-band/narrow-band. I can't imagine that its anywhere near as fast-acting or accurate as a Bosch 4.9 wide-band sensor. I'm sure most people would agree that tuning a car with the OEM sensor isn't a good idea. Tuning at idle would probably be fine, but once the engine is making fast changes that sensor will be providing delayed inaccurate data....
To tune with Adaptronics on the street, an accurate MAP sensor and quality wide-band is necessary.
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 07-09-2019 at 01:55 PM.
Hg is just shorthand for mercury, its just a vacuum reading. Looks like Adaptronics uses inches of mercury, so the y-axis is -18 in Hg, the x-axis is 1000 RPMs.
I have never tried to tune on the factory wide-band/narrow-band. I can't imagine that its anywhere near as fast-acting or accurate as a Bosch 4.9 wide-band sensor. I'm sure most people would agree that tuning a car with the OEM sensor isn't a good idea. Tuning at idle would probably be fine, but once the engine is making fast changes that sensor will be providing delayed inaccurate data....
To tune with Adaptronics on the street, an accurate MAP sensor and quality wide-band is necessary.
Noted.
If that is the case I may leave it be for a bit. Seems to idle fine. maybe feel throttle a bit and see but in the mean time start looking to get a wideband installed.
I bought an aftermarket high resolution 1.2 Bar MAP sensor for my NA engine setup rather than use the internal 4-bar one.
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Very cool, mind sharing info on it?
All new to this but for the time being just a mild NA tune so I probably won't go crazy with sensors until I decide to rebuild my REW block or sell and go LS. I am just trying to learn about tuning and playing with the renny for the time being.
It was pretty expensive plus overseas shipping, but I didn’t recall that from ordering it over a year ago until just looking it up. Kind of doubt you’ll want to pay that much based on your response.
Innovate Wideband is a good choice for AFR tuning on the Adaptronic. I'm sure they still support it natively.
Open / Closed / Auto -- If you were trying to run a turbo or supercharger I'd say get on a dyno and have a professional tuner take over. Auto tuning may prove more than just novel here. I imagine you may get a reasonable fuel map with it enabled putzing around easing through the various load / AFR targets. Once you have a baseline you can tweak your fuel map as appropriate and come out of auto/learning mode.
Innovate Wideband is a good choice for AFR tuning on the Adaptronic. I'm sure they still support it natively.
Open / Closed / Auto -- If you were trying to run a turbo or supercharger I'd say get on a dyno and have a professional tuner take over. Auto tuning may prove more than just novel here. I imagine you may get a reasonable fuel map with it enabled putzing around easing through the various load / AFR targets. Once you have a baseline you can tweak your fuel map as appropriate and come out of auto/learning mode.
That was one of my initial options for setting up a wideband so I hope so.
I was hoping to start doing this as soon as my car can hit the streets. This is just for a small adventure until I get my REW swap parts pile finished. I didn't know if autotune still worked on the rx8 or not, I read a lot about it before on the miata forums but not much info on it for the rx8.
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
I have new unused Innovate LC2 WB setup that I can cut you a good deal on if you don’t want to do the WB module add on
VE tuning is VE tuning.... you set a target "curve" and tune to it. The nuances of rotaries vs traditional IC engines is tied more so to the target curves you set, not the overarching process.
Whatever you do, do not buy Prosport gauges of any kind. My A/F wide-band works great and feeds the ECU the correct data, but the gauge always reads 0.5-1 point richer.
Also, my boost gauge always reads about 5 psi higher than the actual MAP sensor. I now assume that all of their gauges read incorrectly and wish I had gone with a simple BTI gauge or display.....
With Adaptronics there are 4 settings. Open loop, Closed Loop, Rapid Learning, and Slow Converge.
Rapid Learning and Slow Converge are "auto-tune" functions. In my experience, they don't work well until your are above 2,500 RPMs and are great for roughing in the fuel map in the low to medium cruising loads.
You have to be in a particular load/RPM cell for a second or so until the computer can adjust up or down to get the commanded AFR (assuming around 13.5-14.5). Rapid Learning will just move the value quicker with less data and slow converge takes a bit longer and is slower to adjust values.
Once you have dialed in your fuel map in the 0-2,500 RPMs manually by readings your logs and adjusting, I would set your mode to "rapid learning" and just take a long drive on a road with little traffic and just slowly work your way up and down through the gears and trying to keep your engine in a particular load/RPM cell (I would use 300 RPM steps for engine speed, and like 3 inches of Hg steps for load) for a few seconds while the computer adjusts. Once you get into a certain tolerance the cell will be highlighted green which lets you know that you are tuned. Once the full map is roughed in, you can go back to slow converge or closed loop. Always log while you are driving your car. Once you are back at home all you need to do is review your logs and find out where any rich or leans spots are and make adjustments as necessary.
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 07-17-2019 at 08:55 AM.
Well open loop by comparison is the exact opposite of adaptive tuning. Open loop only looks at the VE table for fuel calculations using MAP data and engine speed. The other modes use your o2 sensor for feedback and changes. So no, you have to select rapid learning or slow converge for "auto" tuning....
I normally run closed loop, and once I go into boost or above 4,000 RPMs the car automatically kicks into open loop for high load conditions....
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 07-18-2019 at 08:18 AM.
Well open loop by comparison is the exact opposite of adaptive tuning. Open loop only looks at the VE table for fuel calculations. The other modes use your o2 sensor for feedback and changes. So no, you have to select rapid learning or slow converge for "auto" tuning....
I normally run closed loop, and once I go into boost or above 4,000 RPMs the car automatically kicks into open loop for high load conditions....
Very cool. May I ask why you chose to go to open loop at high loads? Just faster updates due to less input data?
Exactly. Since you run through the cells so quick that the ECU wouldn't have time to make corrections anyway. Therefore, open loop is really for high load situations and when the engine first starts (o2 sensor aren't warmed up yet)... This is pretty much the default way all cars run and Adaptronics base maps are pretty much the same.
Open loop is for the first few minutes of warm-up and high loads (WOT).
Closed loop is for idle after o2 sensor have warmed up, cruising, and low loads.
The grey area of open vs closed loop is for the moderate loads. As you can see in my tune I have the transition point to open loop above 4,000 RPMs (as I would never go over this unless I was driving aggressively) and greater than -1 inch of mercury or 0 psi as I would never hit this unless I was driving aggressively.
Either way you may never notice the difference driving in either setting, its just good to understand what the computer is doing.
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 07-18-2019 at 08:26 AM.
07-01-2019, 05:54 PM
