How Kane Tunes an FI Renesis - Turbo, Ported, Ceramic Seals
01-03-2010, 10:09 AM
#26
If I came across as harsh, that was unintentional. Detailed, highly technical posts are completely appropriate in highly technical threads.
This is true. This is a turbo rotary with 10:1 compression. You need to start thinking about your timing maps now. When I first got into tuning I found as many timing maps for all sorts of different cars with different levels of modifications, and studied them very carefully to see what was done and why.
Here's an interesting thread to check out if you want to read more about timing curves: http://forums.evolutionm.net/ecuflas...ing-curve.html
now granted that's on Evo's, but it gives the basic idea.
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
The starting point is the most important iteration of the tune.
Not only does everything grow from it (the end tune will resemble the "base" tune in shape, for better or worse), but it needs to be able to run the motor to its extremes safely.
Not only does everything grow from it (the end tune will resemble the "base" tune in shape, for better or worse), but it needs to be able to run the motor to its extremes safely.
Here's an interesting thread to check out if you want to read more about timing curves: http://forums.evolutionm.net/ecuflas...ing-curve.html
now granted that's on Evo's, but it gives the basic idea.
01-03-2010, 10:26 AM
#27
It was quite startling to see how different they could be for essentially the same application.
That is why I started to look at the actual math, rather than depend on other people's experience because, I'm afraid, timing has been sort of pushed to the side by many once it is "safe" (which it often isn't, despite what the tuner/owner might think).
01-03-2010, 11:10 AM
#28
I have the math; that actual flame propagation physics are startlingly painful.
I am not complaining about the feedback - but I keep thinking we are overlooking the fact that I am still breaking the motor in - I haven't even GONE past 4000 RPMS yet, so it will be addressed in kind based on the process I have laid out. Injectors, MAF and VE tables based on cruising data, followed by trending the WOT areas and then WOT tuning, followed by idle tuning. Starting with getting the MAF right so the load calculations are good and then moving into advancing the timing and adjusting the VE map. The last time I dyno tuned timing I ended up running only about 8* of advance past 14 PSI on a MAP 13B - so I may just end up pulling almost all the timing and running a few base logs with the EGT's. But hopefully the math will give me a better baseline to start with.
That being said; If the math ends up making my map look unusable (since all the physics are for piston motors) - then I'll probably have to fall back onto the old school aprroach and grab some timing maps from the GT35 13B I dyno tuned; make adjustments for compression and load dyno tune my car once broken in.
I am not complaining about the feedback - but I keep thinking we are overlooking the fact that I am still breaking the motor in - I haven't even GONE past 4000 RPMS yet, so it will be addressed in kind based on the process I have laid out. Injectors, MAF and VE tables based on cruising data, followed by trending the WOT areas and then WOT tuning, followed by idle tuning. Starting with getting the MAF right so the load calculations are good and then moving into advancing the timing and adjusting the VE map. The last time I dyno tuned timing I ended up running only about 8* of advance past 14 PSI on a MAP 13B - so I may just end up pulling almost all the timing and running a few base logs with the EGT's. But hopefully the math will give me a better baseline to start with.
That being said; If the math ends up making my map look unusable (since all the physics are for piston motors) - then I'll probably have to fall back onto the old school aprroach and grab some timing maps from the GT35 13B I dyno tuned; make adjustments for compression and load dyno tune my car once broken in.
01-03-2010, 10:35 PM
#29
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When I had that engine in my car, it always seemed like it wanted to be 'fed' more down low than my first, non-ported engine.
If you have a way to pop open the secondary ports at, say, 3000 rpm, you might find some extra torque down there.
If you have a way to pop open the secondary ports at, say, 3000 rpm, you might find some extra torque down there.
01-04-2010, 11:36 AM
#31
probably a stupid question--but how does the IAT sensor fit in? Or is it even a factor?
Are you tuning for water meth injection or is it just for insurance?
Is their a "warm up" component? You know---cold start thing?
Are you changing the ssv and apv timing?
Newbie to most aspects of tuning that doesnt require a screwdriver
OD
Are you tuning for water meth injection or is it just for insurance?
Is their a "warm up" component? You know---cold start thing?
Are you changing the ssv and apv timing?
Newbie to most aspects of tuning that doesnt require a screwdriver
OD
01-04-2010, 06:06 PM
#32
The IAT is a modifier value. It adds/subtracts from the load calculation. Same goes for the CTS.
How you address it depends on where it is located.
In the OEM configuration, it is in the MAF assembly.
Some of the FI applications have a replacement installed somewhere after the turbo.
If the replacement sensor is fast enough, you an do quite a bit more with it than what is present in the OE calibration.
Kane may have a different take on it, but I just use it as insurance. No calibration adjustments at all.
Well, not exactly. I calibrate as if the ambient air temp is always about 70°F and let the W/M take care of the difference.
There is a timed open-loop that is modified by the CTS and a "minimum" target A/F for that period.
There are also idle values that are adjusted by the CTS.
Once again, Kane may have a different take on it, but I leave the SSV alone and keep the APV closed until the HP peak. I keep the VDI closed completely.
How you address it depends on where it is located.
In the OEM configuration, it is in the MAF assembly.
Some of the FI applications have a replacement installed somewhere after the turbo.
If the replacement sensor is fast enough, you an do quite a bit more with it than what is present in the OE calibration.
Well, not exactly. I calibrate as if the ambient air temp is always about 70°F and let the W/M take care of the difference.
There is a timed open-loop that is modified by the CTS and a "minimum" target A/F for that period.
There are also idle values that are adjusted by the CTS.
Once again, Kane may have a different take on it, but I leave the SSV alone and keep the APV closed until the HP peak. I keep the VDI closed completely.
01-04-2010, 06:38 PM
#33
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Any experience with a turbo car in this regard?
01-04-2010, 06:41 PM
#34
The IAT is a modifier value. It adds/subtracts from the load calculation. Same goes for the CTS.
How you address it depends on where it is located.
In the OEM configuration, it is in the MAF assembly.
Some of the FI applications have a replacement installed somewhere after the turbo.
If the replacement sensor is fast enough, you an do quite a bit more with it than what is present in the OE calibration.
I have the new IAT - but haven't installed it post turbo yet - but I plan to.
Kane may have a different take on it, but I just use it as insurance. No calibration adjustments at all.
Well, not exactly. I calibrate as if the ambient air temp is always about 70°F and let the W/M take care of the difference.
I concur - while I do not have Meth on my car at the moment; I have tuned a few with it - and I always use it as insurance unless the customer says "**** it" I want all the power I can get and I'll get a new motor if I have to. But I think it is kinda stupid.
There is a timed open-loop that is modified by the CTS and a "minimum" target A/F for that period.
There are also idle values that are adjusted by the CTS.
Once again, Kane may have a different take on it, but I leave the SSV alone and keep the APV closed until the HP peak. I keep the VDI closed completely.
How you address it depends on where it is located.
In the OEM configuration, it is in the MAF assembly.
Some of the FI applications have a replacement installed somewhere after the turbo.
If the replacement sensor is fast enough, you an do quite a bit more with it than what is present in the OE calibration.
I have the new IAT - but haven't installed it post turbo yet - but I plan to.
Kane may have a different take on it, but I just use it as insurance. No calibration adjustments at all.
Well, not exactly. I calibrate as if the ambient air temp is always about 70°F and let the W/M take care of the difference.
I concur - while I do not have Meth on my car at the moment; I have tuned a few with it - and I always use it as insurance unless the customer says "**** it" I want all the power I can get and I'll get a new motor if I have to. But I think it is kinda stupid.
There is a timed open-loop that is modified by the CTS and a "minimum" target A/F for that period.
There are also idle values that are adjusted by the CTS.
Once again, Kane may have a different take on it, but I leave the SSV alone and keep the APV closed until the HP peak. I keep the VDI closed completely.
Last edited by Kane; 01-05-2010 at 04:54 AM.
01-05-2010, 02:55 PM
#38
Yeah there's no real need for VDI on a turbo setup. If you look at a lot of cars that come with factory non turbo and turbo engines, their VDI equivalent is never used on the turbo motors. The Skyline and 3000GT both had their own versions of VDI but only on non turbo engines.
01-13-2010, 01:19 PM
#44
/\
To summarise :
more boost (a higher Pr) is required to make the same mass air flow which means the turbo is operating more efficiently (IE cooler) to produce the same whp .
+ No lean spike makes for easier tuning
Does depend on flow characteristics of your turbo as to whether this holds true but pretty much every turbo i've seen used on the Renesis would benefit in this way because they all seem to be designed to operate at higher pressures than what is ideal for the Renesis.
To summarise :
more boost (a higher Pr) is required to make the same mass air flow which means the turbo is operating more efficiently (IE cooler) to produce the same whp .
+ No lean spike makes for easier tuning
Does depend on flow characteristics of your turbo as to whether this holds true but pretty much every turbo i've seen used on the Renesis would benefit in this way because they all seem to be designed to operate at higher pressures than what is ideal for the Renesis.
Last edited by Brettus; 01-13-2010 at 01:45 PM.
01-13-2010, 06:14 PM
#45
This is interesting news.... I may play with it later on.
As for me - I JUST broke 500 miles so now we can start tuning WOT and boost.... it is pig rich right now. I updated my timing for safety and I'll post my final MAF's after I decide to go to Fuel VE% for the rest.
More info to follow.
As for me - I JUST broke 500 miles so now we can start tuning WOT and boost.... it is pig rich right now. I updated my timing for safety and I'll post my final MAF's after I decide to go to Fuel VE% for the rest.
More info to follow.
01-13-2010, 06:33 PM
#49
The bigger problem is I can feel it....it stumbles ever so slightly and I know that I'm pegging both my gauges so to go past 5 PSI is pointless.
I want 11.2; I'll take 10.8 - as long as I'm not stumbling.... but 10.2 (which may very well be 8.2 as that is really close to my gauge limits)... is too rich.
I want 11.2; I'll take 10.8 - as long as I'm not stumbling.... but 10.2 (which may very well be 8.2 as that is really close to my gauge limits)... is too rich.
