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Figure I make a thread since I will likely run into more questions along the way. Been starting to mess around with mazdaedit more now that the snow has melted. I'm on mile 4000 on my rebuilt engine, so far so good. I plan on using this current car as a test dummy to try attempting a bunch of modifications and learn as much as I can. I will also be starting my first actual engineering job in a month since I have graduated last year when covid hit.
Mods/Changes
Aem intake(honestly would have left it stock, but I'm going to be testing some aero ducting and remote oil filter/thermostat projects)
Remanufactured Fuel injectors
Bennet built d585 coils
Spark plugs with roughly 1000 miles on them
So far I have ventured in to do the basic changes of fan temps, dtc codes, omp rates, d585 coil dwell. I did notice my computer for some reason has trouble reading dtc codes, which I think is an issue in the computer itself since I can read and write to the computer perfectly fine. I have a spare new rx8 ecu laying around, so I might try to get that mated to the car.
From Kane's teachings I have written up a basic guide that I plan on following for my tuning process
Spoiler
CALIBRATION:
Make sure you are on a stock tune
Log idle, should read at Kane's known values(based on his experience) == MAF flow of 5.5g/sec at 1.21Volts at stock 800rpm???(Kane didn't specifically say the numeric rpm value)
EX: If it reads flow of ~7g/sec at 1.21 volts the flow at that volt cell and higher voltage needs to be adjusted by the multiplication factor. Don't touch first 2 MAF cells
EX: If both the flow and volts are not at the desired known values then ???????? Don't think he mentioned this in the vids but someone in this thread suggested vacuum leak, I assume other intakes may exhibit this too.
Log and then tune primary injector size to balance out short and long fuel trims
Take Logs at 500rpm intervals up to 3500rpm scaling the Maf within the 14.7 afr closed loop area of the map. Making changes based on fuel trims
EX: if all the logs are off by a consistent linear % this means the injector scaling is off (the injector doesn't change so it is linear)
EX: if all the logs are off by an exponential % this means the Maf scaling is off (the Maf curve is exponential)
Within the 4000-6000rpm range you have to take into account the second injectors kicking in around 5000rpm which will be shown by the injector duration decreasing. Again look to see if you have linear or exponential % differences in afrs to adjust the injector or Maf respectively. All while keeping in mind that the computer swaps to open loop around 4500 which is when changes must be made with respect to differences in the afr map vs the actual recorded afr.
Within 6000-9000rpm repeat same steps for the 4000-6000rpm range
FUEL and IGNITION MAP
Now when sensors are calibrated you can try for more power through tuning the AFR and ignition tables.
For open loop fuel AFRs Kane suggests anything above both 81%load&4000rpm to be in the realm of either 11.8afr(safe side) or 12.1(rich best torque)
For leading ignition Kane suggests for the specific rpm from 56% and higher load:
6000rpm adjust from 56%and higher by adding a degree of timing
6500rpm adjust from 56%and higher by adding two degrees
7000rpm adjust from 56%and higher by adding three degrees
7500rpm adjust from 56%and higher by adding four degrees
8000rpm adjust from 56%and higher by adding 5 degrees
8500rpm (he doesn't show, but states that following the 1 degree per band is relatively safe and you could be more aggressive with a dyno
9000rpm (he doesn't show like the 8500)
Adjust the trailing ignition exactly by the same amounts you adjusted the leading. Note you can't just copy and paste the leading map.
EXTRA:
Increases the OMP oil injection rate by 10%, doesn't touch the throttle based map
lowers fan temps to Fan 1A to 190degF.....Fan 1B to 200degF.....and Fan 2 to 205degF
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Flashed back to the stock idle maps and drove for a week. This log was with the stock intake airbox.
Questions:
What is the bump event every 2 mins in the MAF log? It doesn't appear to be showing in the rpm log. EDIT: This bump also appears on my other Rx8
Now my MAF isn't reading the "known" value of 5.5g/sec at 1.21Volts at idle. This leads me believe that I have a vacuum leak somewhere? I know that when I had my idle raised to 900rpm I was sitting perfectly at the 5.5g/sec at 1.21Volts values and the engine was running smooth. Would this mean the sensor is reading flow correctly, but a vacuum leak post MAF is causing a loss in reading? EDIT: There were several vacuum leaks, upon fixing my MAF values were nearly stock
Last edited by MincVinyl; 07-12-2022 at 09:06 AM.
Reason: added updates
I'd help but Kane's methods are different to mine so I'd just confuse things. I will say though .................. any aftermarket intake will probably require rescaling the maf to a degree.
Well start off by measuring vacuum with a good vacuum gauge; what is it reading relative to the elevation there?
Otherwise the actual MAF value at idle is irrelevant once you confirm there are no leaks; it is what it is and I wouldn’t get bent if it’s 4.x rather than 5 g/s. You simply adjust the scale there to achieve 0 for the LTFT in that range while melding it in with MAF cruise range. then also doing the same for the cruise range and meld in with the WOT range. I’m not really familiar with how Kane did it, but never had any issue with achieving 0 LTFT values. You need to know what those various MAF-LTFT ranges are though. Been a while since I messed with any of that and would have to go check my notes on it. It’s probably listed on the forum somewhere.
edit: no, the OE intake is approx. 3.375”/86mm ID. A 3.5” OD x 16 Ga./0.063” wall is close enough. It definitely isn’t 3”, but there are places in the AEM/MS intake that are smaller than this on the ID. Which is why I never ran one, but built my own instead.
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I believe kane's method was to use a known value for the Maf at idle so you only have to worry about the primary injectors using the idle STFT/LTFT before going into rpm ranges.
Which I guess really would just help cut out some of the legwork in the low rpm MAF/ INJ tuning.
Alright I spent most of the day cleaning the barn and making rust holes larger in my car. I did get to pull the plugs and check some of the vacuum lines.
I measured the MAF inner diameter on both the stock and the aem.
Stock ID = 3.47in
AEM ID = 3.37in
Which the area of the AEM was 94.3% that of the stock intake. I did go and rescale the MAF curve starting from the 3rd cell and onwards by this factor.
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Now for some pictures: Now I put these plugs in about a month ago new. Not quite sure if these are having issues with the amount of idemitsu being injected. Considering we had gotten a new OMP I decided to go back to the stock OMP maps for now and not premix. I'm sure I will be flamed for this, but since I have roughly $1000 in plugs laying around I decided to clean some of them. I just used a sparkplug cleaner(fine sandblaster) Then cleaned them out with brake cleaner to get any deposits out before letting them dry. Here's one of the vacuum lines that goes directly into the primary intake ports. Clearly it was not on all the way and the hose was starting to split. Replaced the hose and decided to use some heatshielding. Took a log after changing -Idle to 1000rpm -Stock OMP maps -rescaled MAF curve for aem diameter
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----------- Here I am not so sure about what happened. I have noticed this happening a few times out while I am driving. Car feels like it will want to stall on its own when one of these events happens, usually goes away if I continue driving.
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What I believe is happening is the old rotors that are oil cooled now have new seals in them. Since my oil cooler fins are entirely dented in I believe the oil may be overheating the rotors by just enough. This overheating is likely causing the new seals to bind once the rotors heat soak. I did a compression test as hot as possible and still saw the engine was in the 85-95psi range all around.....which isn't great for a rebuilt engine, but should be fine to run. Cold compression is up around the 115psi range and it cold starts faster than I can let go of the key. I did another test and held the engine at around 4krpm for 2 mins. Shut the car off and tried to immediately start it, and it wouldn't hot start. After sitting for a minute it started with about 3-4sec of cranking.
Now since I did finally get a full time job I will most likely be picking up a newer mazda 3 for a daily car. Which leaves me with plans to just tear the motor down again and get new rotors, as Team had advised me should have been done in the first place. I already have plans for new oil coolers in the works. With my extra Irons and LIM I may also try bridge porting the APV sleeves and have a variable bridgeport solely for the higher rpm range. Depending on how those Irons come out it may go in the rebuild.
nothing wrong with cleaning and reusing plugs that dont have significant mileage. It should be stated for others who may not be aware that that the tiny grounding strap is a bit fragile and care needs to be taken, though the method used as you described it should be fine. In reality removing the deposits that were on there likely made little difference wrt performance at this time.
I do recall 88mm being the correct MAF ID, but the reality is that just scaling to it that is just a starting point, with the control strategy having both STFT & LTFT components for a reason. You will still need to dial it in some no matter what using the typical procedures. Youre just new to it and will eventually learn to stop trying to make mountains out of molehills. Its straightforward and easy once you get the hang for it. But just to be clear, that intake has a number of places where its only about 3.25 ID. While that wont impact the MAF readings too much, it does create restriction and flow disturbance at some minor level.
Not sure why you persist on foolish ideas like thinking a BP on the APV is going to be a benefit. It only demonstrates that you havent thought it through again; somehow believing youre smarter than everyone else despite all the results and technical explanations that have been made available to you. Or perhaps after coming to another school of hard knocks reality, you wont mind having to pull the engine again to fix that mistake buying and installing another set of iron plates to correct for it. Well, keep having your version of fun then.
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Well in terms of vacuum issues, I found several issues using my smoker. I am waiting on my brother to return the vacuum gauge next weekend.
-The shutter valves on the LIM are leaking (probably going to be a pain to change out gaskets, maybe just separate and use silicon?)
-The MAF on the AEM intake is clearly leaking (need to find an o-ring)
-One of the oil injector vacuum lines was cut/leaking (fixed using a spare)
-Brake booster hose was leaking (fixed)
For the bridgeport idea, from what I have seen online it seems that there are gains possible. The downsides would be losing low range, but that could be mitigated to an extent by making use of the variable system. Now the exhausts would have to be ported out to help match the flow. There isn't much that needs to be done to the apv sleeve to match Bridgeport in that runner. Or are you saying that it comes back to the bridgeport adding overlap and ruining the intake tuning entirely? I have a whole spare engine that I am going to try to look more at the timing aspect of how that port would work. It's not like I am throwing together an engine tomorrow, but I'm definitely going to give it a look at.
I'm with Team .... BP on the APV ports wont work . You will lose some power low down from the leakage and gain zero up top. Have a look at the tortuous path the air has to take to get out past the sleeve then the BP cut . Air doesn't like that ! There are ways to make extra power from that port, but a BP isn't one of them.
I'm with Team .... BP on the APV ports wont work . You will lose some power low down from the leakage and gain zero up top. Have a look at the tortuous path the air has to take to get out past the sleeve then the BP cut . Air doesn't like that ! There are ways to make extra power from that port, but a BP isn't one of them.
What I was saying is I would mill out the apv sleeves themselves to match the bridgeport. The leakage past the closed APV sleeve with whatever overlap the bridge and exhaust port would have would be the main issue.
One question I have is the idle log from my previous post shows an average of 14.3afr when the target should be 14.7afr. With the ECU giving STFTs of 14% to 11%, shouldn't my fuel trims be going higher since the ECU isn't reaching the target AFR?
I should have grabbed some cruise logs before taking everything apart, but considering how the sparkplugs look after about 1000 miles I want to say it is running rich.
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I also went ahead and ordered new rotors front and rear since it was stupid to reuse 100k mile rotors. Looking closer at the event that I logged, I believe that it is sudden drops in compression due to the old rotors binding seals. I'm also going to make sure I seal up the LIM while I have it out. New oil coolers, fans, and lines are on their way so by the end of it there should be no overheating rotors/oil issues. Also picked up one of the RB street 90-95psi oil pressure regulators.
Here's a closer look into the event I have been seeing. After about 10-15mins of idle the fuel trim will decrease from around +14% to +10% as the engine heat soaks. Then there is a sudden change and the engine goes rich, fuel gets pulled(-10STFT) and then it balances out again to +10%.
What I was saying is I would mill out the apv sleeves themselves to match the bridgeport. The leakage past the closed APV sleeve with whatever overlap the bridge and exhaust port would have would be the main issue.
I did assume that you would create a flow path ..... but consider that air will need to take a 90 degree turn through a small slot. Air doesn't like doing that ......
I did assume that you would create a flow path ..... but consider that air will need to take a 90 degree turn through a small slot. Air doesn't like doing that ......
I saw a few different ways that people did in the past where they cut both the housing and the iron to create a sort of 45 degree port. Having the entire corner of the apex seal go across a port doesn't seem right to me though. Just going to be keeping it at a stock/streetport level right now, but I'm going to mess with my other pair of irons/housings that are collecting dust. I see what you mean though, depending on what overlap was created I would think that the bridge would just help air enter the chamber as the rotor is half way across the AuxPort. Otherwise when the full AuxPort is open the bridge would see less flow.
It'd be really nice to make a see through rotor to help visualize port timings.
Originally Posted by Brettus
Re tuning ... you need to watch both ltft and stft in parallel . ltft is more important so i'm wondering why you aren't posting that as well.
The ltfts were 0 across the whole log. I was pretty sure I had logged ltft but I must have unclicked it at some point. Previously before reflashing, ltft=14% and stft=~0%.
The ltfts were 0 across the whole log. I was pretty sure I had logged ltft but I must have unclicked it at some point. Previously before reflashing, ltft=14% and stft=~0%.
How did it go Minc?
I am starting the scaling as well although with stock intake the trims don't nearly look as bad .
I am curious about the 5.5 g/s reference @1.21V I would imagine that to be common knowledge at normal temps and altitude (i.e 20 ēC / 68F, sea level)
I am reading 4.3ish g/s but I'm at 1500m (5000ft) and 35ēC / 95F. Cleaned MAF sensor but no change.
I will be doing some logging on hot idle today to see where I am and start correcting for LTFT
How did it go Minc?
I am starting the scaling as well although with stock intake the trims don't nearly look as bad .
I am curious about the 5.5 g/s reference @1.21V I would imagine that to be common knowledge at normal temps and altitude (i.e 20 ēC / 68F, sea level)
I am reading 4.3ish g/s but I'm at 1500m (5000ft) and 35ēC / 95F. Cleaned MAF sensor but no change.
I will be doing some logging on hot idle today to see where I am and start correcting for LTFT
Well I got pretty side tracked in life for the moment. Got a new job as a mechanical engineer pretty much right when student loans started hitting me. Picked up a new 2021 Mazda3 2.5T, decent commuter but the rear suspension doesn't like cornering or hard braking. Projects are going to be on the backburner for probably another month, got really sick with some inner ear issue and can barely walk due to vertigo most days.
I spent a week or two chasing down every Vacuum leak in the intake (MAF and Shutter valves were the worst). Also opened up the engine again and it was apparent that there were signs of oil starvation on the bearings. I ended up getting a Racingbeat Street pressure regulator, new bearings, new E-shaft, various gaskets, Flywheel. Outside of the engine I got oil coolers, a remote filter+themometer, fragola lines+fittings, Oil cooler fans. Currently making cooler mounts with plans to have easily removable ducting. A rear mount battery kit, new terminals located near fusebox almost in place. Mounted corbeau reclining and heated bucket seats. Working on making my own RasPI android auto head unit aswell. Engine still waiting to go back into the car. I'm sure there are a few other little projects going on too.
For the 5.5 g/s reference @1.21V this was Kane's value that I believe he based off of (probably lower mile, newer) many rx8s he had tuned. If I remember correctly he was in Texas, probably closer to sea level.
I'm on stock. Right now with Hankook 440 thread .
They came with the car, Costco king of tires.
Stock are 225/45R18 if I recall correctly
I am saving for Enkei RPF1 wheels (they are light) and something like Toyo R888R or other semislicks for track days.
To reduce rotational weight mainly. 255/45R17 I'm pretty sure they will feet. Fronts can be smaller if there is any fender kissing.
Stock are 225/45R18...
To reduce rotational weight mainly. 255/45R17 I'm pretty sure they will feet. Fronts can be smaller if there is any fender kissing.
That's a lot if tire there my friend. A heavy tire.
Are you sure? What you gain from the 17" rpf1, you lose it on tire weight at that dimension.
Indeed tyre weight is still under investigation semislicks are all over the place in weight and the info is not always available.
Some data I found:
OEM wheels: 5x114.3 18x8 Alum ==> 23 lbs ~10.43 kg
Enkei RPF1 17x9 ET45 ==> 15.5 lb ~ 7 kg
So clear gain there. Also mass is closer to center of rotation.
Now for the tires I am running:Hankook Optimo H426 All weather. 225x45 R18 91V ==> 21 lbs, 9.53 kg
So yes, seems grippy tyre are heavy as hell.
Since there is 3.5 kg per rim shaving, I have some wiggle room, but have not decided yet.
Michelin seem best on weight, but they are very expensive and cannot find my size easily.
Also thinking about 17x8 maybe and stay on 225 just the compound and thread will make a HUGE difference in grip. Also everything will be cheaper.
Suggestions and personal experiences are very welcome!
17x9 et45 rpf1s waiting in the the boxes, also.
Street driven, was looking at fk512s 245/45/17 around 23,4 lbs If I remember correctly. RT660s are good tires, friend has them on his FD. Around 25lb. More rigid sides, stronger tire.
Now, I am looking at 235/45/17s fk512 at 22lbs each. Car is NA.
If you go turbo, I 'd prefer a stronger tire than a lighter tire.
The bad is fk512s are rated Y. Wonder if I can heat them on the street. An alternative could be yokos advan flevas v701? W rating. But I've heard they're not the same quality as older yokos.
Going to Dyno today. altitude is a huge problem for NA and being at 5000ft ~1500m with 30+ ēC / 86+ F air is just too thin to produce any good NA power.
So based on where I am today I will see turbo option. Cause temps are also a big issue for me.
Managed to keep spirited driving under control but track 3 PM 100+ F on track... its impossible, and if I turbo it it will be even worse.
After Dyno will recal MAF, play a little with AFR and max loads and see where that gets me. Will start a build post on new member section with pics and videos later this weekend. Will post link here.
04-19-2021, 10:34 PM
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