Performance tuning kits
11-29-2003 | 12:51 AM
#76
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,223
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From: Edmonton, Alberta
Originally posted by -=Zeqs=-
If you build it...I will come...hell, even if you charged a little more for the AT kit...650 as opposed to 500 for the M/T, I'd still be interested, so long as it is as simple to install as the M/T version is.
But hey, I also understand that in the world of business, it's best to sell what you can sell quickly and easily so long as the demand is there. However...should you ever get the opportunity to come up with an A/T version in the next year or so to come...I'll be waiting :D
If you build it...I will come...hell, even if you charged a little more for the AT kit...650 as opposed to 500 for the M/T, I'd still be interested, so long as it is as simple to install as the M/T version is.
But hey, I also understand that in the world of business, it's best to sell what you can sell quickly and easily so long as the demand is there. However...should you ever get the opportunity to come up with an A/T version in the next year or so to come...I'll be waiting :D
And I do not know anyone around these parts who has an AT RX-8
So now what?
11-29-2003 | 03:04 AM
#77
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
Who tuned rotary on pump gas at full throttle at 14.1 a/f? Care to name the companies that you are referring to? Do you know quoting a/f from a Japanese company will be the most foolish thing you can do since their gas is 100 octane. We don't have 100 octane pump gas. Besides that, running 14.1 a/f is for cruising. That a/f ratio does not make max power. You can cruise at 14.1 all day long without blowing the motor simply because the load on the engine isn't there. That's what the close loop oxygen sensor is for, trying to keep the a/f at crusing as close to 14.7 to save fuel.
It seems like all your info was being told to you. You don't really have any experience on tuning rotary or have any idea how a rotary works. That's what I most worry about. There are a few rotary tuners on board and none of them will tell you tuning a rotary at 14.1 a/f is safe on pump gas under full throttle and on top of that, advance the timing by a lot?
If you know just a little about rotary, you will know oil injection system failure will not cause the engine to seize. Blown engine can still turn. You just have no compression on the motor. You should know right away what mazda dealer told you is wrong if you know about rotary engine.
How is running the car at higher altitude going to increase the chance of detonation? Higher altitude means the air density is less. That will make the car run richer, not leaner if the ecu does not compensate for ATM pressure. Engine running at high altitude makes less power. Are you implying engines at high altitude makes more power than sea level and there is more chance of detonation? You also forgot that modern car comes with an ATM pressure sensor so it's going to adjust fuel accordingly.
Yes, I am very concerned, simply because what you are doing is very dangerous. There are a lot of first time rotary owners on board and they don't know anything about rotary. This is the same thing when 3rd gen RX-7 came out. People don't know anything about it and start doing stupid mods and engine blows up. It's good that you are very confident about your product. Are you confident enough to pay for people's blown motor and state that in writing?
So how much timing are you advancing over the stock map? Did you change both the leading timing map and trailing timing map and what kind of timing split do you see? You should release more detail info on your a/f and ignition tuning for those people who know about rotary to see if your tuning is safe. Please do that in excel format like the apex power fc table so people can simply download it and analyze.
It seems like all your info was being told to you. You don't really have any experience on tuning rotary or have any idea how a rotary works. That's what I most worry about. There are a few rotary tuners on board and none of them will tell you tuning a rotary at 14.1 a/f is safe on pump gas under full throttle and on top of that, advance the timing by a lot?
If you know just a little about rotary, you will know oil injection system failure will not cause the engine to seize. Blown engine can still turn. You just have no compression on the motor. You should know right away what mazda dealer told you is wrong if you know about rotary engine.
How is running the car at higher altitude going to increase the chance of detonation? Higher altitude means the air density is less. That will make the car run richer, not leaner if the ecu does not compensate for ATM pressure. Engine running at high altitude makes less power. Are you implying engines at high altitude makes more power than sea level and there is more chance of detonation? You also forgot that modern car comes with an ATM pressure sensor so it's going to adjust fuel accordingly.
Yes, I am very concerned, simply because what you are doing is very dangerous. There are a lot of first time rotary owners on board and they don't know anything about rotary. This is the same thing when 3rd gen RX-7 came out. People don't know anything about it and start doing stupid mods and engine blows up. It's good that you are very confident about your product. Are you confident enough to pay for people's blown motor and state that in writing?
So how much timing are you advancing over the stock map? Did you change both the leading timing map and trailing timing map and what kind of timing split do you see? You should release more detail info on your a/f and ignition tuning for those people who know about rotary to see if your tuning is safe. Please do that in excel format like the apex power fc table so people can simply download it and analyze.
Originally posted by canzoomer
Actually this is fairly rich.
Tuners who have done RX-7's for years are running as lean as 14:1 on lots of rotaries.
Further, I am told by tuners over the pond in Japan that the stock WOT condition at 7200rpm is about 13.6-13.7:1 ratio.
We also looked at exhaust gas temperatures.
These are in line with what one should see as well.
If there is ANY place to be concerned about heat, it is the spark plugs and coil packs.
Simply put, in a rotary they get a heavier duty cycle than in a piston engine vehicle. Every plug fires what is effectively 3 cylinders, and the plugs are not getting a charge of cold air on an intake cycle, like a 4 stroke.
This is similar to what you see in a 2 stroke engine.
I saw it when we ran power WAY up for a few tests one day, with leaner fuel mix and a lot more ignition advance. We made a LOT more than 25HP gain, and, in fact peaked over 50HP higher.
But, at the end of that day, after a lot of runs on the dynoe, the coil packs started to melt.
They are right on top of the plugs, and get a lot of heat transfer.
Of course it did not help that we were sitting still in the shop, under repeated heavy load, with no air flow.
I tend to agree with you that a oil injection failure is unlikely.
Bearing failure is much more likely.
The engine was comprssion tested after the failure, with no reduction in compression loss, so seal failure is NOT the problem.
It showed all the signs of seizing. Whether that was a bearing failure, as I believe, or an oil injection failure, as Mazda said, we can not tell without stripping down the engine.
.A friend of mine who rebuilds and modifies rotary engines tells me that he feels it is likely a bearing failure as well.
I do not exactly KNOW what killed my engine. We did not have a chance to tear it down and find out.
That diagnosis is what Mazda Canada told me.
I am VERY confident that we are not even getting CLOSE to detnation. Under tests where we made twice as much power gain as we are selling, we saw NO signs of detonation.
And that was at 3,000 foot altitude.
But I appreciate your concerns.
Actually this is fairly rich.
Tuners who have done RX-7's for years are running as lean as 14:1 on lots of rotaries.
Further, I am told by tuners over the pond in Japan that the stock WOT condition at 7200rpm is about 13.6-13.7:1 ratio.
We also looked at exhaust gas temperatures.
These are in line with what one should see as well.
If there is ANY place to be concerned about heat, it is the spark plugs and coil packs.
Simply put, in a rotary they get a heavier duty cycle than in a piston engine vehicle. Every plug fires what is effectively 3 cylinders, and the plugs are not getting a charge of cold air on an intake cycle, like a 4 stroke.
This is similar to what you see in a 2 stroke engine.
I saw it when we ran power WAY up for a few tests one day, with leaner fuel mix and a lot more ignition advance. We made a LOT more than 25HP gain, and, in fact peaked over 50HP higher.
But, at the end of that day, after a lot of runs on the dynoe, the coil packs started to melt.
They are right on top of the plugs, and get a lot of heat transfer.
Of course it did not help that we were sitting still in the shop, under repeated heavy load, with no air flow.
I tend to agree with you that a oil injection failure is unlikely.
Bearing failure is much more likely.
The engine was comprssion tested after the failure, with no reduction in compression loss, so seal failure is NOT the problem.
It showed all the signs of seizing. Whether that was a bearing failure, as I believe, or an oil injection failure, as Mazda said, we can not tell without stripping down the engine.
.A friend of mine who rebuilds and modifies rotary engines tells me that he feels it is likely a bearing failure as well.
I do not exactly KNOW what killed my engine. We did not have a chance to tear it down and find out.
That diagnosis is what Mazda Canada told me.
I am VERY confident that we are not even getting CLOSE to detnation. Under tests where we made twice as much power gain as we are selling, we saw NO signs of detonation.
And that was at 3,000 foot altitude.
But I appreciate your concerns.
11-29-2003 | 12:26 PM
#78
While I'm sure everyone here is encouraged by your enthusiasm, you should couch your arguments in somewhat less condescending language.
You should also have a better grip on the facts.
Well, by our rating methods, we don't have 100 octane. However, we do have the same octane as the Japanese.
In Japan, they only use the RON number for the AKI. In North America, we use an average of the RON and MON numbers for AKI. Typical premium fuel has a RON of 100 and a MON of 84.
100 + 84 /2 = 92
92 octane is typical premium fuel.
In other words - North American 92 octane is equivalent to Japanese 100 octane because it is rated differently.
The load and stoichiometry are independent. Maximum power is achieved at the leanest A/F ratio you can supply that will not produce knock at maximum VE. Generally, you will want to run slightly richer under most circumstances to protect the engine because a myriad of conditions may exist to move the ratio to the lean side of stoich and a little bit of fuel is cheap compared to a motor rebuild.
BTW - true stoichiometry of gasoline is 15.179. It takes 15.179 kg of air to combust one kg of gasoline. 14.1 is the maximum power figure with some room for safety.
And he has said this very thing over and over again. Read the thread. Canzoomer has realized all along that a bearing failure is likely the real culprit rather than an injection failure.
However, for Mazda, an injection failure is more palatable because a bearing failure is a flawed part while a injection failure is a flawed tolerance. A flawed part requires a recall and an engine teardown. A flawed tolerance only requires a TSB. Much cheaper.
I'm not sure where you got the claim that he would run more power at altitude from this thread (maybe I missed that one), but it is true that higher altitude will knock less.
The effect of increasing altitude may be nonlinear. At least one study reported a decrease of the octane requirement of 1.4 RON/300m from sea level to 1800m and 2.5 RON/300m from 1800m to 3600m.
1) Reduced air density provides lower combustion temperature and pressure.
2) Fuel is metered according to air volume, consequently as density decreases the stoichiometry moves to rich, with a lower octane number requirement.
3) Manifold vacuum controlled spark advance, and reduced manifold vacuum results in less spark advance.
BTW - it is a BARO sensor these days. not ATM.
You should also have a better grip on the facts.
Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Do you know quoting a/f from a Japanese company will be the most foolish thing you can do since their gas is 100 octane. We don't have 100 octane pump gas.
Do you know quoting a/f from a Japanese company will be the most foolish thing you can do since their gas is 100 octane. We don't have 100 octane pump gas.
In Japan, they only use the RON number for the AKI. In North America, we use an average of the RON and MON numbers for AKI. Typical premium fuel has a RON of 100 and a MON of 84.
100 + 84 /2 = 92
92 octane is typical premium fuel.
In other words - North American 92 octane is equivalent to Japanese 100 octane because it is rated differently.
Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Besides that, running 14.1 a/f is for cruising. That a/f ratio does not make max power. You can cruise at 14.1 all day long without blowing the motor simply because the load on the engine isn't there. That's what the close loop oxygen sensor is for, trying to keep the a/f at crusing as close to 14.7 to save fuel.
Besides that, running 14.1 a/f is for cruising. That a/f ratio does not make max power. You can cruise at 14.1 all day long without blowing the motor simply because the load on the engine isn't there. That's what the close loop oxygen sensor is for, trying to keep the a/f at crusing as close to 14.7 to save fuel.
BTW - true stoichiometry of gasoline is 15.179. It takes 15.179 kg of air to combust one kg of gasoline. 14.1 is the maximum power figure with some room for safety.
Originally posted by se3pmaniac
If you know just a little about rotary, you will know oil injection system failure will not cause the engine to seize. Blown engine can still turn. You just have no compression on the motor. You should know right away what mazda dealer told you is wrong if you know about rotary engine.
If you know just a little about rotary, you will know oil injection system failure will not cause the engine to seize. Blown engine can still turn. You just have no compression on the motor. You should know right away what mazda dealer told you is wrong if you know about rotary engine.
However, for Mazda, an injection failure is more palatable because a bearing failure is a flawed part while a injection failure is a flawed tolerance. A flawed part requires a recall and an engine teardown. A flawed tolerance only requires a TSB. Much cheaper.
Originally posted by se3pmaniac
How is running the car at higher altitude going to increase the chance of detonation? Higher altitude means the air density is less. That will make the car run richer, not leaner if the ecu does not compensate for ATM pressure. Engine running at high altitude makes less power. Are you implying engines at high altitude makes more power than sea level and there is more chance of detonation? You also forgot that modern car comes with an ATM pressure sensor so it's going to adjust fuel accordingly.
How is running the car at higher altitude going to increase the chance of detonation? Higher altitude means the air density is less. That will make the car run richer, not leaner if the ecu does not compensate for ATM pressure. Engine running at high altitude makes less power. Are you implying engines at high altitude makes more power than sea level and there is more chance of detonation? You also forgot that modern car comes with an ATM pressure sensor so it's going to adjust fuel accordingly.
The effect of increasing altitude may be nonlinear. At least one study reported a decrease of the octane requirement of 1.4 RON/300m from sea level to 1800m and 2.5 RON/300m from 1800m to 3600m.
1) Reduced air density provides lower combustion temperature and pressure.
2) Fuel is metered according to air volume, consequently as density decreases the stoichiometry moves to rich, with a lower octane number requirement.
3) Manifold vacuum controlled spark advance, and reduced manifold vacuum results in less spark advance.
BTW - it is a BARO sensor these days. not ATM.
11-29-2003 | 03:36 PM
#80
Thread Starter
Forum Vendor
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,223
Likes: 1
From: Edmonton, Alberta
Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Who tuned rotary on pump gas at full throttle at 14.1 a/f? Care to name the companies that you are referring to? Do you know quoting a/f from a Japanese company will be the most foolish thing you can do since their gas is 100 octane. We don't have 100 octane pump gas.
Who tuned rotary on pump gas at full throttle at 14.1 a/f? Care to name the companies that you are referring to? Do you know quoting a/f from a Japanese company will be the most foolish thing you can do since their gas is 100 octane. We don't have 100 octane pump gas.
They have higher RON # fuel available.
That does NOT translate to higher octane.
In N. America we use a standard for pump gas that is a mixture of the RON index and the anti-knock index.
96RON roughly translates into a 91 octane level fuel using hte N.American ratings standard.
RON ONLY refers to the "Research Octane Number" and has little to do with the "Anti Knock Index"
The two are not identical things.
It is a common myth that the ratings in many foreign ( to us ) locales actually translate to higher octane levels.
If you read through the RX8-club forums and do some searches on the terms "fuel octane" you will find some useful discussiuons where this is detailed very well.
I am NOT going to repeat it (again) here.
To make a long story short you have some misconceptions about octane, detonation(knocking) mixtures, and ignition advance.
Some of us have done our homework and took the time to gain an understanding of this, and some have not.
You fall into the latter catgory.
Please spread your FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) elsewhere.
Besides that, running 14.1 a/f is for cruising.
It seems like all your info was being told to you. You don't really have any experience on tuning rotary or have any idea how a rotary works. That's what I most worry about. There are a few rotary tuners on board and none of them will tell you tuning a rotary at 14.1 a/f is safe on pump gas under full throttle and on top of that, advance the timing by a lot?
I doubt it. In what you have said in this message alone you have fully illustrated that you have absolutely NO CLUE about what you are talking about.
If you do not like what we are doing, so be it, It is a free discussion, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.
All of this has been discussed in a LOT of detail already, and if you care to take the time you will find that lengthy discussion about these and other considerations are already available to you on these forums.
Please read them.
If you know just a little about rotary, you will know oil injection system failure will not cause the engine to seize. Blown engine can still turn. You just have no compression on the motor. You should know right away what mazda dealer told you is wrong if you know about rotary engine.
However, while I have suspicions they are wrong, there is no empirical way to prove that short of tearing down the engine and checking. As they did the engine replacement under warranty, it is THEIR ENGINE, and i do not have that opportunity.
We ASKED them for the chance to look at it for a few days.
I do not believe everything Mazda says, or I would not have started this project in the first place.
I DO know that the reason for MY engine failure was NOT apex seals, and that after the failure the engine still had full compression.
I also know by the behaviour and sounds that SOMETHING had seized. I am inclined to believe it was a bearing, perhaps it was a side seal. I have spoken at length with people who rebuild and upgrade rotary engines for a living, and they feel that the failure can NOT be a oil injection failure, but a component failure, likely a bearing.
The fact that we have full compression proves the apex seals are not gone.
How is running the car at higher altitude going to increase the chance of detonation? Higher altitude means the air density is less. That will make the car run richer, not leaner if the ecu does not compensate for ATM pressure. Engine running at high altitude makes less power. Are you implying engines at high altitude makes more power than sea level and there is more chance of detonation? You also forgot that modern car comes with an ATM pressure sensor so it's going to adjust fuel accordingly.
If we have less air density ( due to altitude, barometric pressure or temperature) then the mix is richer, and the ECU responds by correcting that. The way we are tuning, which is by changing the RELATIVE reference data fed to the ECU allows it to make adjustments for this.
IF we had retuned to static settings then the engine would tend to run poorly if the conditions changed.
Our device reads the MAF and O2, and adjusts the ECU output to compensate dynamically, and to maintain themixtures and timing to suit the conditions.
Yes, I am very concerned, simply because what you are doing is very dangerous. There are a lot of first time rotary owners on board and they don't know anything about rotary. This is the same thing when 3rd gen RX-7 came out. People don't know anything about it and start doing stupid mods and engine blows up. It's good that you are very confident about your product. Are you confident enough to pay for people's blown motor and state that in writing?
I do not consider what we are doing to be "stupid mods".
And by stating various things and demonstrating that you have NO CLUE about what you are talking about, you have now taken this past conversation and into the realm of insults.
At this point I no longer care to discuss this with you.
Take the time to find out more, do a little reading, and get back to me IF and WHEN you care to discuss this with a more polite and informed viewpoint and some common manners.
And Have a Nice Day.
[/B][/QUOTE]
11-29-2003 | 05:50 PM
#81
Banned
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 2
From: Gold Coast Australia
se3pmaniac
Mate you are a legend (in your own lunchtime )as maurice (canzoomer)has pointed out go take your F.U.D.(fear , uncertainty and disinformation )and shove it up you no were , if you are going to make statements especially towards maurices hard work and research you wont get much symphaty from most forum members who in the last 3 months have followed Canzoomers fine work and totally believe in his product . and extensive research on the rx8 .
Maurice i would not waste your valuable time in responding to unresearched unfounded BULLSHIT .
Maurice ( HELL HAS NO FURY THAN 50 YEAR OLD TO BE KANGARRO 2 WITH OUT HIS STAGE 1 air fuel ignition controller , so please-------- can you send me stage 1 ASAP.
Michael
Mate you are a legend (in your own lunchtime )as maurice (canzoomer)has pointed out go take your F.U.D.(fear , uncertainty and disinformation )and shove it up you no were , if you are going to make statements especially towards maurices hard work and research you wont get much symphaty from most forum members who in the last 3 months have followed Canzoomers fine work and totally believe in his product . and extensive research on the rx8 .
Maurice i would not waste your valuable time in responding to unresearched unfounded BULLSHIT .
Maurice ( HELL HAS NO FURY THAN 50 YEAR OLD TO BE KANGARRO 2 WITH OUT HIS STAGE 1 air fuel ignition controller , so please-------- can you send me stage 1 ASAP.
Michael
11-29-2003 | 08:08 PM
#82
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
So you are so sure that the octance gas in Japan is no matter than the one we have in the US? The octane rating is ron+mon / 2. So you are saying Japanese gas is only rated in ron but not the standard ron+mon / 2? If it's not, how do you know what their mon rating is? You just assume is 90 so take (80+100) / 2 gives you 90 octane?
It's funny that you said I have no clue on rotary while I have been doing it for 10 years including tuning cars. How long have you been doing this?
14.1 a/f will be for cruisng. You know why? While cursing, the o2 sensor is in close loop, your a/f reading will oscilate between about 13.5 to 15.5 and 14.1 will fall into that range. You think the o2 sensor on the car runs in open loop or something during cruising?
You said you tested your car at 3000 ft altitude so if it's safe at alttitude, it will be safe. You make it seem like the condition you tested the car is worst than at sea level.
Your mod will be stupid if it does not provide safe tuning. I am not saying your product will not work. I am saying your tuning is dangerous. Like I said, will you be confident to offer to pay for people's blown motor in writing?
[/B][/QUOTE]
It's funny that you said I have no clue on rotary while I have been doing it for 10 years including tuning cars. How long have you been doing this?
14.1 a/f will be for cruisng. You know why? While cursing, the o2 sensor is in close loop, your a/f reading will oscilate between about 13.5 to 15.5 and 14.1 will fall into that range. You think the o2 sensor on the car runs in open loop or something during cruising?
You said you tested your car at 3000 ft altitude so if it's safe at alttitude, it will be safe. You make it seem like the condition you tested the car is worst than at sea level.
Your mod will be stupid if it does not provide safe tuning. I am not saying your product will not work. I am saying your tuning is dangerous. Like I said, will you be confident to offer to pay for people's blown motor in writing?
Originally posted by canzoomer
No, It is NOT.
They have higher RON # fuel available.
That does NOT translate to higher octane.
In N. America we use a standard for pump gas that is a mixture of the RON index and the anti-knock index.
96RON roughly translates into a 91 octane level fuel using hte N.American ratings standard.
RON ONLY refers to the "Research Octane Number" and has little to do with the "Anti Knock Index"
The two are not identical things.
It is a common myth that the ratings in many foreign ( to us ) locales actually translate to higher octane levels.
If you read through the RX8-club forums and do some searches on the terms "fuel octane" you will find some useful discussiuons where this is detailed very well.
I am NOT going to repeat it (again) here.
To make a long story short you have some misconceptions about octane, detonation(knocking) mixtures, and ignition advance.
Some of us have done our homework and took the time to gain an understanding of this, and some have not.
You fall into the latter catgory.
Please spread your FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) elsewhere.
No, for that you want around 14.6 to 14.8:1
And YOU do?
I doubt it. In what you have said in this message alone you have fully illustrated that you have absolutely NO CLUE about what you are talking about.
If you do not like what we are doing, so be it, It is a free discussion, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.
All of this has been discussed in a LOT of detail already, and if you care to take the time you will find that lengthy discussion about these and other considerations are already available to you on these forums.
Please read them.
I FEEL that they are wrong.
However, while I have suspicions they are wrong, there is no empirical way to prove that short of tearing down the engine and checking. As they did the engine replacement under warranty, it is THEIR ENGINE, and i do not have that opportunity.
We ASKED them for the chance to look at it for a few days.
I do not believe everything Mazda says, or I would not have started this project in the first place.
I DO know that the reason for MY engine failure was NOT apex seals, and that after the failure the engine still had full compression.
I also know by the behaviour and sounds that SOMETHING had seized. I am inclined to believe it was a bearing, perhaps it was a side seal. I have spoken at length with people who rebuild and upgrade rotary engines for a living, and they feel that the failure can NOT be a oil injection failure, but a component failure, likely a bearing.
The fact that we have full compression proves the apex seals are not gone.
Thanks for answering yourself.
If we have less air density ( due to altitude, barometric pressure or temperature) then the mix is richer, and the ECU responds by correcting that. The way we are tuning, which is by changing the RELATIVE reference data fed to the ECU allows it to make adjustments for this.
IF we had retuned to static settings then the engine would tend to run poorly if the conditions changed.
Our device reads the MAF and O2, and adjusts the ECU output to compensate dynamically, and to maintain themixtures and timing to suit the conditions.
Up to now it has been a polite conversation.
I do not consider what we are doing to be "stupid mods".
And by stating various things and demonstrating that you have NO CLUE about what you are talking about, you have now taken this past conversation and into the realm of insults.
At this point I no longer care to discuss this with you.
Take the time to find out more, do a little reading, and get back to me IF and WHEN you care to discuss this with a more polite and informed viewpoint and some common manners.
And Have a Nice Day.
No, It is NOT.
They have higher RON # fuel available.
That does NOT translate to higher octane.
In N. America we use a standard for pump gas that is a mixture of the RON index and the anti-knock index.
96RON roughly translates into a 91 octane level fuel using hte N.American ratings standard.
RON ONLY refers to the "Research Octane Number" and has little to do with the "Anti Knock Index"
The two are not identical things.
It is a common myth that the ratings in many foreign ( to us ) locales actually translate to higher octane levels.
If you read through the RX8-club forums and do some searches on the terms "fuel octane" you will find some useful discussiuons where this is detailed very well.
I am NOT going to repeat it (again) here.
To make a long story short you have some misconceptions about octane, detonation(knocking) mixtures, and ignition advance.
Some of us have done our homework and took the time to gain an understanding of this, and some have not.
You fall into the latter catgory.
Please spread your FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) elsewhere.
No, for that you want around 14.6 to 14.8:1
And YOU do?
I doubt it. In what you have said in this message alone you have fully illustrated that you have absolutely NO CLUE about what you are talking about.
If you do not like what we are doing, so be it, It is a free discussion, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.
All of this has been discussed in a LOT of detail already, and if you care to take the time you will find that lengthy discussion about these and other considerations are already available to you on these forums.
Please read them.
I FEEL that they are wrong.
However, while I have suspicions they are wrong, there is no empirical way to prove that short of tearing down the engine and checking. As they did the engine replacement under warranty, it is THEIR ENGINE, and i do not have that opportunity.
We ASKED them for the chance to look at it for a few days.
I do not believe everything Mazda says, or I would not have started this project in the first place.
I DO know that the reason for MY engine failure was NOT apex seals, and that after the failure the engine still had full compression.
I also know by the behaviour and sounds that SOMETHING had seized. I am inclined to believe it was a bearing, perhaps it was a side seal. I have spoken at length with people who rebuild and upgrade rotary engines for a living, and they feel that the failure can NOT be a oil injection failure, but a component failure, likely a bearing.
The fact that we have full compression proves the apex seals are not gone.
Thanks for answering yourself.
If we have less air density ( due to altitude, barometric pressure or temperature) then the mix is richer, and the ECU responds by correcting that. The way we are tuning, which is by changing the RELATIVE reference data fed to the ECU allows it to make adjustments for this.
IF we had retuned to static settings then the engine would tend to run poorly if the conditions changed.
Our device reads the MAF and O2, and adjusts the ECU output to compensate dynamically, and to maintain themixtures and timing to suit the conditions.
Up to now it has been a polite conversation.
I do not consider what we are doing to be "stupid mods".
And by stating various things and demonstrating that you have NO CLUE about what you are talking about, you have now taken this past conversation and into the realm of insults.
At this point I no longer care to discuss this with you.
Take the time to find out more, do a little reading, and get back to me IF and WHEN you care to discuss this with a more polite and informed viewpoint and some common manners.
And Have a Nice Day.
11-29-2003 | 08:18 PM
#83
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
About octane rating, you can say whatever you want. If I don't see any published data from the Japanese fuel company saying their gas is just about the same as the US one, I can't just take your word for it.
Running 14.1 on a rotary is not safe. You already cruise at 14.1. Don't believe me? Put a o2 bung on the midpipe before the cat and buy a wide band and monitor it yourself. The a/f will oscillate between roughly 15.5 and 13.5. It's closed loop so the computer will try to make it run 14.7 but it will oscillate. You will not get a constant a/f reading when you cruise.
Barometic sensor and atm pressure sensor is the same. Different pressure unit. I can say it's psi sensor if I want as long as it measures atmosphere pressue.
Carzoomer says he tuned his car at 3000 ft altitiute and it's safe at that level. He makes it seem like tuning at 3000 ft altitude is a very harsh condition. It's a harsh condition to get max power but not necessary the harsher condition for the engine. Maybe he should explain more about what he is implying by saying it's tuned at 3000 ft altitude.
Running 14.1 on a rotary is not safe. You already cruise at 14.1. Don't believe me? Put a o2 bung on the midpipe before the cat and buy a wide band and monitor it yourself. The a/f will oscillate between roughly 15.5 and 13.5. It's closed loop so the computer will try to make it run 14.7 but it will oscillate. You will not get a constant a/f reading when you cruise.
Barometic sensor and atm pressure sensor is the same. Different pressure unit. I can say it's psi sensor if I want as long as it measures atmosphere pressue.
Carzoomer says he tuned his car at 3000 ft altitiute and it's safe at that level. He makes it seem like tuning at 3000 ft altitude is a very harsh condition. It's a harsh condition to get max power but not necessary the harsher condition for the engine. Maybe he should explain more about what he is implying by saying it's tuned at 3000 ft altitude.
Originally posted by Maniac
While I'm sure everyone here is encouraged by your enthusiasm, you should couch your arguments in somewhat less condescending language.
You should also have a better grip on the facts.
Well, by our rating methods, we don't have 100 octane. However, we do have the same octane as the Japanese.
In Japan, they only use the RON number for the AKI. In North America, we use an average of the RON and MON numbers for AKI. Typical premium fuel has a RON of 100 and a MON of 84.
100 + 84 /2 = 92
92 octane is typical premium fuel.
In other words - North American 92 octane is equivalent to Japanese 100 octane because it is rated differently.
The load and stoichiometry are independent. Maximum power is achieved at the leanest A/F ratio you can supply that will not produce knock at maximum VE. Generally, you will want to run slightly richer under most circumstances to protect the engine because a myriad of conditions may exist to move the ratio to the lean side of stoich and a little bit of fuel is cheap compared to a motor rebuild.
BTW - true stoichiometry of gasoline is 15.179. It takes 15.179 kg of air to combust one kg of gasoline. 14.1 is the maximum power figure with some room for safety.
And he has said this very thing over and over again. Read the thread. Canzoomer has realized all along that a bearing failure is likely the real culprit rather than an injection failure.
However, for Mazda, an injection failure is more palatable because a bearing failure is a flawed part while a injection failure is a flawed tolerance. A flawed part requires a recall and an engine teardown. A flawed tolerance only requires a TSB. Much cheaper.
I'm not sure where you got the claim that he would run more power at altitude from this thread (maybe I missed that one), but it is true that higher altitude will knock less.
The effect of increasing altitude may be nonlinear. At least one study reported a decrease of the octane requirement of 1.4 RON/300m from sea level to 1800m and 2.5 RON/300m from 1800m to 3600m.
1) Reduced air density provides lower combustion temperature and pressure.
2) Fuel is metered according to air volume, consequently as density decreases the stoichiometry moves to rich, with a lower octane number requirement.
3) Manifold vacuum controlled spark advance, and reduced manifold vacuum results in less spark advance.
BTW - it is a BARO sensor these days. not ATM.
While I'm sure everyone here is encouraged by your enthusiasm, you should couch your arguments in somewhat less condescending language.
You should also have a better grip on the facts.
Well, by our rating methods, we don't have 100 octane. However, we do have the same octane as the Japanese.
In Japan, they only use the RON number for the AKI. In North America, we use an average of the RON and MON numbers for AKI. Typical premium fuel has a RON of 100 and a MON of 84.
100 + 84 /2 = 92
92 octane is typical premium fuel.
In other words - North American 92 octane is equivalent to Japanese 100 octane because it is rated differently.
The load and stoichiometry are independent. Maximum power is achieved at the leanest A/F ratio you can supply that will not produce knock at maximum VE. Generally, you will want to run slightly richer under most circumstances to protect the engine because a myriad of conditions may exist to move the ratio to the lean side of stoich and a little bit of fuel is cheap compared to a motor rebuild.
BTW - true stoichiometry of gasoline is 15.179. It takes 15.179 kg of air to combust one kg of gasoline. 14.1 is the maximum power figure with some room for safety.
And he has said this very thing over and over again. Read the thread. Canzoomer has realized all along that a bearing failure is likely the real culprit rather than an injection failure.
However, for Mazda, an injection failure is more palatable because a bearing failure is a flawed part while a injection failure is a flawed tolerance. A flawed part requires a recall and an engine teardown. A flawed tolerance only requires a TSB. Much cheaper.
I'm not sure where you got the claim that he would run more power at altitude from this thread (maybe I missed that one), but it is true that higher altitude will knock less.
The effect of increasing altitude may be nonlinear. At least one study reported a decrease of the octane requirement of 1.4 RON/300m from sea level to 1800m and 2.5 RON/300m from 1800m to 3600m.
1) Reduced air density provides lower combustion temperature and pressure.
2) Fuel is metered according to air volume, consequently as density decreases the stoichiometry moves to rich, with a lower octane number requirement.
3) Manifold vacuum controlled spark advance, and reduced manifold vacuum results in less spark advance.
BTW - it is a BARO sensor these days. not ATM.
11-29-2003 | 08:25 PM
#84
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
Whatever you say, mate. I have been playing with rotary for 10 years. I am not here trying to sell another ecu mod. I am just saying his tuning is not safe based on my and other rotary owners experience. Like I said, a great device will hurt the engine if it's not tuned properly. That's why they are many people blowing engines using Apex Power FC. You have many rotary shops in Aus. Aus has a lot of fast rotary cars. It shouldn't be too hard for you to hear some of the shops opinions on tuning the a/f to 14.1 and advnacing the timing by a lot. Yeah, mate?
Originally posted by Lock & Load
se3pmaniac
Mate you are a legend (in your own lunchtime )as maurice (canzoomer)has pointed out go take your F.U.D.(fear , uncertainty and disinformation )and shove it up you no were , if you are going to make statements especially towards maurices hard work and research you wont get much symphaty from most forum members who in the last 3 months have followed Canzoomers fine work and totally believe in his product . and extensive research on the rx8 .
Maurice i would not waste your valuable time in responding to unresearched unfounded BULLSHIT .
Maurice ( HELL HAS NO FURY THAN 50 YEAR OLD TO BE KANGARRO 2 WITH OUT HIS STAGE 1 air fuel ignition controller , so please-------- can you send me stage 1 ASAP.
Michael
se3pmaniac
Mate you are a legend (in your own lunchtime )as maurice (canzoomer)has pointed out go take your F.U.D.(fear , uncertainty and disinformation )and shove it up you no were , if you are going to make statements especially towards maurices hard work and research you wont get much symphaty from most forum members who in the last 3 months have followed Canzoomers fine work and totally believe in his product . and extensive research on the rx8 .
Maurice i would not waste your valuable time in responding to unresearched unfounded BULLSHIT .
Maurice ( HELL HAS NO FURY THAN 50 YEAR OLD TO BE KANGARRO 2 WITH OUT HIS STAGE 1 air fuel ignition controller , so please-------- can you send me stage 1 ASAP.
Michael
Last edited by se3pmaniac; 11-29-2003 at 08:28 PM.
11-29-2003 | 08:34 PM
#85
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
Whatever I said, I don't mean to be rude. I am just expressing my concern based on the things I read you posted. I will be very concerned if someone can't realize right away oil injection failure does not cause side seal failure. If you really know about rotary, you will catch that right away. You would not have quoted the dealer. It's kind of funny you let the same dealer did the install for you when clearly they had no idea what they are talking about. I guess their mechanic can just drop in the motor without knowing too much about the actual mechanic of rotary.
When I see your a/f tuning and advancing timing, I am even more concerned.
If I am going to buy a product, I want to know it's safe and I will rate it by my experience, not because someone tells me it's all good.
Please provide a table that includes the target a/f ratio in the table format, like the power fc, along with leading ignition timing and trailing ignitiong timing. Best of all, provide the split as well so pepole who don't know how to use excel can clearly see it.
If you think I am just here to insult you, that's fine. You don't have to provide any detail data but trust me, a buyer who has extensive expereince on rotary and rotary tuning will question you the same.
Oh well, good luck on the sales. I guess we will find out in a few weeks.
When I see your a/f tuning and advancing timing, I am even more concerned.
If I am going to buy a product, I want to know it's safe and I will rate it by my experience, not because someone tells me it's all good.
Please provide a table that includes the target a/f ratio in the table format, like the power fc, along with leading ignition timing and trailing ignitiong timing. Best of all, provide the split as well so pepole who don't know how to use excel can clearly see it.
If you think I am just here to insult you, that's fine. You don't have to provide any detail data but trust me, a buyer who has extensive expereince on rotary and rotary tuning will question you the same.
Oh well, good luck on the sales. I guess we will find out in a few weeks.
Last edited by se3pmaniac; 11-29-2003 at 08:48 PM.
11-29-2003 | 09:12 PM
#86
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
So what you are saying is that tuning the car at high altitude will knock less so when you bring the same car to sea level, it's likely to knock more? That's one of my cocern and you clearly answered it for me. Thank you.
Originally posted by Maniac
[I'm not sure where you got the claim that he would run more power at altitude from this thread (maybe I missed that one), but it is true that higher altitude will knock less.
The effect of increasing altitude may be nonlinear. At least one study reported a decrease of the octane requirement of 1.4 RON/300m from sea level to 1800m and 2.5 RON/300m from 1800m to 3600m.
1) Reduced air density provides lower combustion temperature and pressure.
2) Fuel is metered according to air volume, consequently as density decreases the stoichiometry moves to rich, with a lower octane number requirement.
3) Manifold vacuum controlled spark advance, and reduced manifold vacuum results in less spark advance.
[I'm not sure where you got the claim that he would run more power at altitude from this thread (maybe I missed that one), but it is true that higher altitude will knock less.
The effect of increasing altitude may be nonlinear. At least one study reported a decrease of the octane requirement of 1.4 RON/300m from sea level to 1800m and 2.5 RON/300m from 1800m to 3600m.
1) Reduced air density provides lower combustion temperature and pressure.
2) Fuel is metered according to air volume, consequently as density decreases the stoichiometry moves to rich, with a lower octane number requirement.
3) Manifold vacuum controlled spark advance, and reduced manifold vacuum results in less spark advance.
11-29-2003 | 09:16 PM
#87
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
I phoned my friend who has a Nissan Skyline and asked him about his expereince with the Japanese gas and US pump gas. He said while his car was in Japan, he could run 18 psi on the 100 Octane pump gas but when he brought it over to CA and use the 91 octane pump gas, he will need to lower the boost to 15 psi with the same ignition and fuel map. That's the MON rating comparsion for you.
11-29-2003 | 10:52 PM
#89
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
Another question I have on your ECU mod is how does it intercept the stock signal and modify it for output? Does it go by a percentage like many piggy backs on the market?
Let's say your ECU mod will take off the fuel by percentage and it does not have any preset fuel injector % map. The final a/f will be affected by the map from the original ECU.
Let's assume that the stock map is running at 11.5 a/f. and you are leaning it out to 13.2 as you said. That means you are taking off 13% of the fuel. If your ECU mod goes by the percentage, another ECU originally comes with a 12.5 a/f map with your ECU mod will get the final a/f at 14.4. Do you know if all the RX8 ECUs from differnet parts of the world come with the same map?
When you tune the car, how do you monitor for knock? Do you have a knock monitor or you intercept the knock sensor signal and monitor for voltage? Did you use an aftermarket knock monitor such as the HKS one or the J&S knock sensor?
Since yours is a piggy back system, I would like to compare it to the Greddy E-manage which sells for only $400 with software that you can tune the ecu with a laptop computer. Do you think your piggy back is better than the Greddy one and why?
Will you be able to offer a version with a reflashable rom that people can use a laptop to tune like the Greddy one. Will it come with dataloggin software like the Greddy one.
Let's say your ECU mod will take off the fuel by percentage and it does not have any preset fuel injector % map. The final a/f will be affected by the map from the original ECU.
Let's assume that the stock map is running at 11.5 a/f. and you are leaning it out to 13.2 as you said. That means you are taking off 13% of the fuel. If your ECU mod goes by the percentage, another ECU originally comes with a 12.5 a/f map with your ECU mod will get the final a/f at 14.4. Do you know if all the RX8 ECUs from differnet parts of the world come with the same map?
When you tune the car, how do you monitor for knock? Do you have a knock monitor or you intercept the knock sensor signal and monitor for voltage? Did you use an aftermarket knock monitor such as the HKS one or the J&S knock sensor?
Since yours is a piggy back system, I would like to compare it to the Greddy E-manage which sells for only $400 with software that you can tune the ecu with a laptop computer. Do you think your piggy back is better than the Greddy one and why?
Will you be able to offer a version with a reflashable rom that people can use a laptop to tune like the Greddy one. Will it come with dataloggin software like the Greddy one.
11-30-2003 | 01:12 AM
#90
Banned
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
From: Auburn, CA
Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Another question I have on your ECU mod is how does it intercept the stock signal and modify it for output? Does it go by a percentage like many piggy backs on the market?
Let's say your ECU mod will take off the fuel by percentage and it does not have any preset fuel injector % map. The final a/f will be affected by the map from the original ECU.
Let's assume that the stock map is running at 11.5 a/f. and you are leaning it out to 13.2 as you said. That means you are taking off 13% of the fuel. If your ECU mod goes by the percentage, another ECU originally comes with a 12.5 a/f map with your ECU mod will get the final a/f at 14.4. Do you know if all the RX8 ECUs from differnet parts of the world come with the same map?
Another question I have on your ECU mod is how does it intercept the stock signal and modify it for output? Does it go by a percentage like many piggy backs on the market?
Let's say your ECU mod will take off the fuel by percentage and it does not have any preset fuel injector % map. The final a/f will be affected by the map from the original ECU.
Let's assume that the stock map is running at 11.5 a/f. and you are leaning it out to 13.2 as you said. That means you are taking off 13% of the fuel. If your ECU mod goes by the percentage, another ECU originally comes with a 12.5 a/f map with your ECU mod will get the final a/f at 14.4. Do you know if all the RX8 ECUs from differnet parts of the world come with the same map?
Vince
11-30-2003 | 01:39 AM
#91
Thread Starter
Forum Vendor
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,223
Likes: 1
From: Edmonton, Alberta
Originally posted by compaddict
Good question.
Vince
Good question.
Vince
We also monitor O2.
We set based on the readings from these, from which we adjust the tune map.
Even the e-Manage which was mentioned here has this capability.
However it is not particularly useful for this engine. More on that in a moment.
As for knock sensor output, if one is using a map that makes for a knock condition, one is running way too close to the limits to start with. If you are at the point where knock happens, a sensor will not help you.
None of them respond fast enough to offer any real protection in the long run, and will not do anything to prevent it from happening again.
IF the knock sensor is set off, the ECU will go into a fault state, and will have to be cleared of the fault before it will return to normal ECU settings.
Unfortunately the Greddy unit and the e-Tune software for it does not have a preset setting for the MAF used in the RX-8.
It also does not have the ability to deal with an engine with 2 spark plugs per cylinder, with different timings for the leading and trailing plugs.
But please tell sep3pmaniac to try this.
I would like to hear how he makes out.
11-30-2003 | 02:57 AM
#92
Registered
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,845
Likes: 1
From: Calgary, AB
Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Don't believe me? Put a o2 bung on the midpipe before the cat and buy a wide band and monitor it yourself.
Don't believe me? Put a o2 bung on the midpipe before the cat and buy a wide band and monitor it yourself.
Again - how can you come up with criticisms like this, and expect to be taken seriously? You're full of suggestions as to why canzoomer's research isn't correct, yet you obviously haven't even read how canzoomer did his research. So we're supposed to trust you, when you're repeatedly demonstrating that YOU don't do the basic research required to properly analyse a situation???
Regards,
Gordon
11-30-2003 | 03:29 AM
#93
Originally posted by se3pmaniac
I phoned my friend who has a Nissan Skyline and asked him about his expereince with the Japanese gas and US pump gas. He said while his car was in Japan, he could run 18 psi on the 100 Octane pump gas but when he brought it over to CA and use the 91 octane pump gas, he will need to lower the boost to 15 psi with the same ignition and fuel map. That's the MON rating comparsion for you.
I phoned my friend who has a Nissan Skyline and asked him about his expereince with the Japanese gas and US pump gas. He said while his car was in Japan, he could run 18 psi on the 100 Octane pump gas but when he brought it over to CA and use the 91 octane pump gas, he will need to lower the boost to 15 psi with the same ignition and fuel map. That's the MON rating comparsion for you.
I won"t wast bandwidth here on my credentials or education,
but sufice to say I have already forgotten more on gasoline and combustion than you are likely to ever learn in the first place.
This is NOT meant to be an insult but, rather, and invitation of sorts.
If you want to understand what is going on with your friend's Nissan, drop me a line and I'll explain more thoroughly for your benefit.
However, don't persist being a post-***** here. This is Canzoomer's thread and his forum and should be left as such.
11-30-2003 | 09:40 AM
#94
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
Do you mean your ECU piggy back monitors the stock o2 sensor that if it detects the engine is not running at the target a/f, it's going to enrich the map? So you are saying your ECU mod will let the O2 sensor funtions at closed loop even at full throttle? I do not think the stock o2 sensor is wide band so it will not be accurate to run it at closed loop under full throttle if your ecu mod is capable of doing that.
As for knock sensor, I asked because you said there was no knock during your tuning on the dyno. I wonder how you determined that.
As far as Greddy e manage, Greddy is making a prototype turbo kit for the rx8 and rumor says they are using the e manage to control the map. I personally don't like piggy back. I use standaloe such as power fc.
As for knock sensor, I asked because you said there was no knock during your tuning on the dyno. I wonder how you determined that.
As far as Greddy e manage, Greddy is making a prototype turbo kit for the rx8 and rumor says they are using the e manage to control the map. I personally don't like piggy back. I use standaloe such as power fc.
Originally posted by canzoomer
The mapping we use is taking the input from more than the MAF.
We also monitor O2.
We set based on the readings from these, from which we adjust the tune map.
Even the e-Manage which was mentioned here has this capability.
However it is not particularly useful for this engine. More on that in a moment.
As for knock sensor output, if one is using a map that makes for a knock condition, one is running way too close to the limits to start with. If you are at the point where knock happens, a sensor will not help you.
None of them respond fast enough to offer any real protection in the long run, and will not do anything to prevent it from happening again.
IF the knock sensor is set off, the ECU will go into a fault state, and will have to be cleared of the fault before it will return to normal ECU settings.
Unfortunately the Greddy unit and the e-Tune software for it does not have a preset setting for the MAF used in the RX-8.
It also does not have the ability to deal with an engine with 2 spark plugs per cylinder, with different timings for the leading and trailing plugs.
But please tell sep3pmaniac to try this.
I would like to hear how he makes out.
The mapping we use is taking the input from more than the MAF.
We also monitor O2.
We set based on the readings from these, from which we adjust the tune map.
Even the e-Manage which was mentioned here has this capability.
However it is not particularly useful for this engine. More on that in a moment.
As for knock sensor output, if one is using a map that makes for a knock condition, one is running way too close to the limits to start with. If you are at the point where knock happens, a sensor will not help you.
None of them respond fast enough to offer any real protection in the long run, and will not do anything to prevent it from happening again.
IF the knock sensor is set off, the ECU will go into a fault state, and will have to be cleared of the fault before it will return to normal ECU settings.
Unfortunately the Greddy unit and the e-Tune software for it does not have a preset setting for the MAF used in the RX-8.
It also does not have the ability to deal with an engine with 2 spark plugs per cylinder, with different timings for the leading and trailing plugs.
But please tell sep3pmaniac to try this.
I would like to hear how he makes out.
11-30-2003 | 09:49 AM
#95
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
Do you even know what I am referring to? Carzoomer said 14.1 is not for cruising a/f but when car is cruising, it will run in a closed loop and the a/f will oscillate. 14.1 a/f will fall into that range. It's a fact, not criticism. I run wideband o2 sensor on my 3rd gen at all time. Like I said, if you don't believe me, just put a wideband on your car and see it yourself. You can even buy a cheap autometer one and it will show the a/f oscillating when cruising. If you have a volt meter, you can just tap the wires to your o2 sensor and you can see the voltage from the o2 sensor oscillating as well.
Originally posted by Gord96BRG
You sure have a lot to say, especially for someone who hasn't even bothered to read about what you're disputing. If you're so concerned about canzoomer's tuning, you should have read the threads discussing it. Without doing so, you're just talking nonsense. For your information (which has been discussed in several threads), canzoomer DOES have an wideband O2 sensor added to his exhaust and has extensively monitored it and logged it, with just the factory ECU and with his fuel controller mod.
Again - how can you come up with criticisms like this, and expect to be taken seriously? You're full of suggestions as to why canzoomer's research isn't correct, yet you obviously haven't even read how canzoomer did his research. So we're supposed to trust you, when you're repeatedly demonstrating that YOU don't do the basic research required to properly analyse a situation???
Regards,
Gordon
You sure have a lot to say, especially for someone who hasn't even bothered to read about what you're disputing. If you're so concerned about canzoomer's tuning, you should have read the threads discussing it. Without doing so, you're just talking nonsense. For your information (which has been discussed in several threads), canzoomer DOES have an wideband O2 sensor added to his exhaust and has extensively monitored it and logged it, with just the factory ECU and with his fuel controller mod.
Again - how can you come up with criticisms like this, and expect to be taken seriously? You're full of suggestions as to why canzoomer's research isn't correct, yet you obviously haven't even read how canzoomer did his research. So we're supposed to trust you, when you're repeatedly demonstrating that YOU don't do the basic research required to properly analyse a situation???
Regards,
Gordon
11-30-2003 | 09:57 AM
#96
Banned
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
From: Auburn, CA
Se3maniac:
You raise a few good points and you make many bad assumptions. Try asking nice and opening your mind to the possibility that you can ask hard questions and learn something at the same time.
Vince
You raise a few good points and you make many bad assumptions. Try asking nice and opening your mind to the possibility that you can ask hard questions and learn something at the same time.
Vince
11-30-2003 | 10:01 AM
#97
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
Wow. Good for you. You don't even know me and you already assume you know more than I do. Please let me know if the Japanese 100 octane gas and the US 91 octane gas have the some anti knock index, why does he need to lower the boost 15 psi to avoid detonation. It's like today I used Shell 91 octane and tomorrow I use 76 91 octane, I have to lower the boost on my car because I am using a different company's gas even though they have the same octane rating?
When I have questions on how his unit works, I am a post *****? All my questions are technical. Instead of bashing me, why don't you prove me wrong with some scientific facts??
How about the knock issue that I thank you for? When you stated the engine is less likely to knock at high altitude, is it more likely to knock at sea level? My conclusion was based on your statement.
When I have questions on how his unit works, I am a post *****? All my questions are technical. Instead of bashing me, why don't you prove me wrong with some scientific facts??
How about the knock issue that I thank you for? When you stated the engine is less likely to knock at high altitude, is it more likely to knock at sea level? My conclusion was based on your statement.
Originally posted by Maniac
Hi.
I won"t wast bandwidth here on my credentials or education,
but sufice to say I have already forgotten more on gasoline and combustion than you are likely to ever learn in the first place.
This is NOT meant to be an insult but, rather, and invitation of sorts.
If you want to understand what is going on with your friend's Nissan, drop me a line and I'll explain more thoroughly for your benefit.
However, don't persist being a post-***** here. This is Canzoomer's thread and his forum and should be left as such.
Hi.
I won"t wast bandwidth here on my credentials or education,
but sufice to say I have already forgotten more on gasoline and combustion than you are likely to ever learn in the first place.
This is NOT meant to be an insult but, rather, and invitation of sorts.
If you want to understand what is going on with your friend's Nissan, drop me a line and I'll explain more thoroughly for your benefit.
However, don't persist being a post-***** here. This is Canzoomer's thread and his forum and should be left as such.
11-30-2003 | 10:07 AM
#98
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
If I make bad assumption, please correct me. I don't know why everyone is getting mad. If his unit works, he can simply retune it. Like I said, I am not saying his unit does not work. From I understand, he can offer two different maps to a stock car and a car with midpipe. For sure he can create differnet maps easily.
My only concern is tuning. How about this, will a customer be able to ask for a more conservative tuning with richer mixture and less advance timing.
I am very straight forward and sometime I just type without thinking. If you are a technical person, you should see I am not here to bash any. I just have some concerns need to be answered in a very detaied way. If I am buying something, I want to know how it works inside out. I am a very technical guy. At the same time, I am not an English major so I don't tend to rephrase things nicely. Sorry.
My only concern is tuning. How about this, will a customer be able to ask for a more conservative tuning with richer mixture and less advance timing.
I am very straight forward and sometime I just type without thinking. If you are a technical person, you should see I am not here to bash any. I just have some concerns need to be answered in a very detaied way. If I am buying something, I want to know how it works inside out. I am a very technical guy. At the same time, I am not an English major so I don't tend to rephrase things nicely. Sorry.
Originally posted by compaddict
Se3maniac:
You raise a few good points and you make many bad assumptions. Try asking nice and opening your mind to the possibility that you can ask hard questions and learn something at the same time.
Vince
Se3maniac:
You raise a few good points and you make many bad assumptions. Try asking nice and opening your mind to the possibility that you can ask hard questions and learn something at the same time.
Vince
11-30-2003 | 11:30 AM
#99
Banned
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
From: Auburn, CA
Originally posted by se3pmaniac
If I make bad assumption, please correct me.
If I make bad assumption, please correct me.
It's much easier to read and discuss if you ask questions without assuming something first (or say your assuming to take the edge off).
You ask a few good questions and it would be nice if Maurice could have the space to answer them and not have to waste it correcting your wrong assumptions.
To download the RX-8 tech CD:
ftp://ftp.snikte.net/ login:RX8 and I forget the password! Do a search in the forums!
Vince
11-30-2003 | 12:13 PM
#100
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 44
Likes: 1
Sorry Vince. So far I don't see any of so called assumptions being corrected by canzoomer. The only argument I have with him is the a/f ratio and the ignition timing. My exprience does not agree with his but that's not based on any of assumptions.
The rest are just questions.
1. How does he determine there is no knocking when he tuned the car. What kind of device did he use. I asked this because according my experience, sometimes a rotary engine will not blow right away with detonation. If a car still runs after a dyno session, that does not necessary means there is no knocking on the dyno.
2. Will he be able to provide target a/f and ignition timing tables for people to evaluate.
3. Why does he emphasizes that he tuned the car at 3000 ft altitude. What's his implication behind that.
4. When he said the ECU mod monitors the stock O2, what does that mean? Will the ECU mod unit correct the injection duty cycle based on the stock o2 feed back even at full throttle.
5. Will there be custom tuned ecu based on people's need
6. Will there be a tunable unit available that people can tune the ECU mod unit with a laptop
7. Will there be any written statement to guarantee the safe use of the unit
8. When he said he has been told by other rotary shops that it's safe to tune rotary at 14.1 a/f, who are those shops? I would like to talk to them and share info. Even shops in Japan is ok. I have friends speaking Japanese.
Think of the bright side. If his answers please me who is probably the most **** one on this board, he can please anyone else.
BTW, your link is not working.
The rest are just questions.
1. How does he determine there is no knocking when he tuned the car. What kind of device did he use. I asked this because according my experience, sometimes a rotary engine will not blow right away with detonation. If a car still runs after a dyno session, that does not necessary means there is no knocking on the dyno.
2. Will he be able to provide target a/f and ignition timing tables for people to evaluate.
3. Why does he emphasizes that he tuned the car at 3000 ft altitude. What's his implication behind that.
4. When he said the ECU mod monitors the stock O2, what does that mean? Will the ECU mod unit correct the injection duty cycle based on the stock o2 feed back even at full throttle.
5. Will there be custom tuned ecu based on people's need
6. Will there be a tunable unit available that people can tune the ECU mod unit with a laptop
7. Will there be any written statement to guarantee the safe use of the unit
8. When he said he has been told by other rotary shops that it's safe to tune rotary at 14.1 a/f, who are those shops? I would like to talk to them and share info. Even shops in Japan is ok. I have friends speaking Japanese.
Think of the bright side. If his answers please me who is probably the most **** one on this board, he can please anyone else.
BTW, your link is not working.
Originally posted by compaddict
First most assumptions are bad when talking about technical subjects.
It's much easier to read and discuss if you ask questions without assuming something first (or say your assuming to take the edge off).
You ask a few good questions and it would be nice if Maurice could have the space to answer them and not have to waste it correcting your wrong assumptions.
To download the RX-8 tech CD:
ftp://ftp.snikte.net/ login:RX8 and I forget the password! Do a search in the forums!
Vince
First most assumptions are bad when talking about technical subjects.
It's much easier to read and discuss if you ask questions without assuming something first (or say your assuming to take the edge off).
You ask a few good questions and it would be nice if Maurice could have the space to answer them and not have to waste it correcting your wrong assumptions.
To download the RX-8 tech CD:
ftp://ftp.snikte.net/ login:RX8 and I forget the password! Do a search in the forums!
Vince