mysql

0:21 sec in there starts a weird popping noise that continues through the entire pull. Is that the mic breaking up from the sound, or is your car really making those noises?

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Sweet Bill---keep up the good work. You may want to consider the cat's temp as those a/f's get leaner. The egt's on the rotary as you know is already high.
Is your neck in shape yet?
olddragger

Spin9k

lolachampcar can horiz scale lines be put on those graphs to make them easier to read at a glance? Maybe for each graph one parameter on the left, one on the right?

lolachampcar

Good question. I will send this thread to the EFIDudes.

I do know I've been trading data files with people based on the released ProLogger and the EFIDude guys added an import and export function to make it easier to share data.

lolachampcar

Good idea. I am very comfortable with air/fuel ratios for our race engines (pistons) but am curious what those who know would have to say about a good NA A/F. Me thinks I should start a thread somewhere. Which section do you think would be best for such a thread?

lolachampcar

The thought occurred to me (yeh, I know I am a bit slow) that the ProLogger software is available as a free download on the EFIDude site. With Naar's permission, I can just put the data file up on this thread so anyone interested can download it and take a look for themselves.

Any interest?

Spin9k

sign me up

lolachampcar

I bounced the idea off the EFIDude guys and they want to test downloading the application, not installing the drivers and then opening a data file. They think it will work but want to check first before frustrating people with silly software problems. I should be able to get it up tonight or tomorrow (the file that is, no need for viagra here - yet).

lolachampcar

Ok, I asked the Dudes if their software could be downloaded by anyone and used to view data files. They weren't sure, gave it a try and said it should work just fine.

So, I've attached the NaarLeven data shown above. Just place this data on your desktop (it is ziped so you will have to unzip it) then go to www.efidude.com and install ProLogger (you will find it under downloads and it is free). Do not bother with installing the drivers as they are only needed when you want to download data from a data logger.

Once installed, go to file - import vehicle data file and import the Naar data file from your desktop. You should now be able to "fly" all the data yourself.

There are two "pulls" towards the middle of the file. You will notice some vertical grey lines. These lines denote when the car was switched off. The first grey line set was a rip down the street when Naar showed up at the shop. I simply opened his door, plugged in the logger and sent him down the road. The second and third grey line sections are the two dyno pulls while the last grey line section is a rip down the road after pulling the car off the dyno. You can put the cursor somewhere within the first ten seconds of data and you will see the date and time that the data was downloaded to the PC.

Please let me know if the above install and view process is clear, if it works and if you have any problems.

Spin9k

Pretty cool! By mistake I found you can expand the scale by click-and-hold while moving up/down on the graph. It's not easily repeatable. What is the correct way to do that?

So for example on your WOT dyno pull, should the goal be to get a square wave look for lambda (which you started to do on the 2nd) adjusting all the values to about what across the rpm range? 12.5?13.0? 13.5? or does it need to get richer at higher rpms? That looks too easy..I'm sure it isn't....is it?

jones75254

iTrader: (2)

^^Yeah you can zoom in and out for finer points, kind of like the function with the I-Phone where you zoom in and out with your fingers. You can also use the pg up/pg dn keys to quickly forward through the data and if you click and hold either to the right/left of the centerline and then move the mouse, depending on how far away you scroll it goes through the data slow or fast pursuant to how fast you want it to go. Is pretty neat.

lolachampcar

I’ve had to look at a lot of data over the years so, when it came time for me to do my own fuel control, I had a very good idea of exactly how I wanted the data viewing and tuning portion to work. My request to Dian (now one of the EFIDudes) was to give me a video game type interface. As you found, hold the mouse left button down and you can “fly” the data like a video game. The farther you move to the left or right of the center line, the faster the data moves. Moving up or down causes the data to expand (up) or contract (down). It is hard to explain; you just have to play with it.

Normally, I just turn on speed on the top and load on the bottom. I then fly through the data to find points of interest. When I find something I like I lift the left mouse button. You can then use the up and down arrow keys to fine tune the zoom (instead of the course left mouse button down and moving the mouse up and down). You can also place the cursor on the point you want to look at and click. That data point will then be placed on the center line and the values for that point in time displayed. Use it a bit and you will come to appreciate just how fast you can find what you want.

It also helps to know that you can just plug in the dongle at any time during a run to log some data and then pull it back out when you are done. I do this on the road all the time; you get used to reaching under the dash and plugging in without ever taking your eyes off the road. This lets you only get the data you want and keeps you from plowing through a bunch of junk to get to points of interest.

The best part is, the whole deal is like a buck fifty!

Enough about the logger. My whole reason for being on the forum is to try and demystify the whole tuning process. The reflashing and data stuff are simply tools to help perform a task. They are not complicated. I still need to outline the step by step tasks we did when we did back to back passes, but it really is simple and easy to do. As you can imagine, engines probably want a nice continuous lambda or mixture curve. I started a thread asking for feedback on what the RX-8 community feels are good normally aspirated mixture values under full load. Once we get a consensus, I hope to find someone that wants to do a full NA tune showing all the steps and decisions made on mixture. Hopefully, they will also post the file so others can download it, edit it if they like, then give it a go and post their data logs as well. If the person is in the West Palm Beach area, I think I can throw in some dyno time as well.

Again, there is no real magic here, just good old fashion baby steps and checking your progress along the way.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Bill --lots of info in regard to a/f's--timing on the na cars on the old CZ threads. But for new i would suggest the ecu /tuning thread. The rotary when compared to a recip is a different beast when it comes to tuning.
Must have something to do with that 240 degree flame front we have
Olddragger

lolachampcar

Me thinks it is time for a call to Downing, Mandaville and Worth. They have been melting down rotary engines for longer than most of us have been driving. I also saw that Jeff posted on my AF thread. Hopefully he will join in. I'll also try Scott across the sate.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Lola,

This is great stuff, and a good philosopy as well.

Cheers,
Hymee.

lolachampcar

Hymee,

Thanks but I have a bone to pick with you. ME WANT GRAPHICAL TUNING PACKAGE.

Cobb will not sell me theirs yet. You will not sell me yours yet. I want I want I want.... I'm getting tired of editing X and X-Y tables and would like to speed things up with a good graphical interface.

I will try to be patient but it is not my strong suit. Please finish your package as I KNOW it will be great.

sosonic

Hey lolachampcar, it is just about March 3rd.

Any announcement about the EFIDude Programmer VIN Tokens??? It seems you still can't buy them yet.

Any timeframe on the release of the tuning software???

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

My understanding it will be more of "Editing" software application than a "Tuning" application.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Christian.

We are releasing our AccessTUNER Professional tuner software for the Mazda RX-8 very soon. You are welcome to e-mail scott@cobbtuning.com with your inquiries.
You often mention we, do you work with EFIDude or are you assisting him to develop this software? I just wanted to get an understanding, you appear to be supporting the product.

You also started a good thread called "Tuning Company’s Philosophies, One Person’s Perspective" I wanted to ask you to clarify your position so that the RX-8 owners better understands your motivations. I am not trying to argue or create any issues. EMS calibration is a science more than a philosophy and I wanted to make sure that we were all open about our intentions, motivations, and relationships. Again, I hope this does not come off the wrong way. I just want to promote open communications concerning RX-8 EMS calibrations and EMS product reviews.

Take care,
Christian.

lolachampcar

I'm supposed to get my "Personality Changer" for my ProLogger dongle tomorrow. The piece of hardware that does the logging also does the reflashing; you just click on a button in ProLogger and it makes the dongle a reflasher (in about fifteen seconds). Apparently this is how the EFIDudes have been building these things. I've been using two dongles myself, one set as a logger and one as a reflasher. They put the "personality" feature in the software so people do not have to buy two dongles to do their car.

I'm the lab rat. I will let you know how it goes.

As for the map editing stuff, I know it comes after the personality bit and thus should be soon. The best part about it is that it is free! I've been using the Dude development stuff for my changes and it is not something any sane person would want to mess with (PM me and I will explain more).

I've been curious about NA and nitrous so what I have been doing for people is sending them a spreadsheet with the maps where they make their edits and then I can email them a file with those changes made for reflashing. That is how we are attacking the nitrous project unit the freeware editor is posted on the EFIDude site and I am hoping to do the same with the NA shareware tune project. Once the freeware editor is posted, you can take the last file I sent you and start doing your own edits to it.

I know the EFIDudes are peddling as fast as they can. I'm just trying to fill in the gaps along the way and kick off some neat projects in the process.

lolachampcar

Christian,
Good to hear from you. I did post a curiosity I had about the Cobb tool timing on a different thread and was quickly corrected. I apologize for any offence and retract my tasteless comment.

Now, on to your questions......

I am retired from the computer industry. A few years back, I got an itch to work on a problem that has bugged me for many a year. In short, I was helping a friend with a Nissan GTP that was converted to an Autronic Fuel Control (from the original Electromotive). I liked what Richard Aubert had done and thought "if he had only gone a bit further" it would have been a really neat product. That thought combined with a lot of discussion with Ben at EFIU was the genesis of a stand alone OEM replacement fuel control project. I took a year off from being retired and went to work marrying an open source 8 injector 8 ignition fuel control engine to my own LSU 4.2 wide band driver and a 10 Hz data acquisition system. I engaged a young talented programmer to do the PC side stuff and I did the micro firmware and board design bit. The first target of the family of products was the Yamaha Raptor 700R.

To make a long story short, we did the Raptor control together with some really neat tuning software that pre-qualified lambda (made sure the PiD loops were on target and that mixture data was not affected by transients) before it could be used for tuning and then provided point and click tuning. The hardware was exactly the size of the stock Raptor fuel control and dropped right in place of it. It had over 100 hours of logging (at 10hz) and recorded over 30 values. Everything was going just fine until it came time for acts and omissions liability insurance. It seems that, in the ATV world, it is not a matter of if you will get in a lawsuit but when and how bad. There is no place in my life for litigation so I bailed on the project. I licensed it to a few people to recoup my investment. One of the licensees builds rotary engines and that got me involved as a consultant in EPA certifying one of their single rotor engines with my fuel control. That project was good fun and I could fill volumes on the subject.

Moving along-
I have breakfast with a good friend of mine on a regular basis. This guy was doing a supercharger kit for the RX-8 and had been working on me for months to solve his factory PCM access problem. I kept putting him off because of the mountain of work it would take to do the project justice. During this process, I was approached by another friend that wanted to bring his tuning in house (he was getting his files from overseas at that point). Putting the two projects together made for a decent budget and a good opportunity to put that PC programmer back to work. That is how I got into the whole OEM control world and what a complicated world it is. I’ve met a lot of people; some very good but hard to get to know and some easy to get to know but lacking a bit in ethics. I guess it is the same everywhere.

The moving the tuning in house project was fairly straight forward. The RX-8 one, not so much. One of my very first calls was to you (Cobb) as there was no reason to recreate the wheel. Both my friend with the supercharge kit and I made multiple attempts to contact Cobb with no reply. That was a real shame as we could all have saved time and pushed things along a little faster. So, without Cobb, we started down the path that ended in the RX-8 PCM running the supercharger.

One of the byproducts from the RX-8 project was a set of tools we had been using for eight months. I looked at my programmer buddy and said “why don’t you sell them to RX-8 enthusiasts out there? They are already done, tested and paid for.” and thus EFIDude started work on ProLogger (came from my fuel control data viewer) and ReFlasher (came from the supercharger project). It was an easy technology decision because EFIDude has been doing FI applications on the RX-8 since early last year. It just needed to be packaged for retail consumption. That is pretty much the EFIDude where did they come from story.

As for me, I am still retired. I do not own any part of EFIDude and do not profit from their success. I do enjoy playing with this stuff and am fascinated with market development. I am keenly interested to see how people get on when they have access to affordable tools. I am also interested in finding a way that Cobb and EFIDude can both contribute to the RX-8 community. There is not much overlap in the products. The Cobb stuff is going to be top drawer (which is why I want one so bad, but then budget is not my concern) if it is remotely close to anything you guys have done in the past. The EFIDude stuff will be just like two end wrenches, one will log data so you can see what is going on and the other will put your changes on a car. Hopefully the two companies will be far enough apart that we can all get along (if my gaf at the start of all of this did not screw things up).

Lastly, I really do not want to polarize the situation any more than it is on the philosophy question. At the same time, I do not want to duck a direct question. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle. I want to see tuners putting a lot of energy into developing the RX-8 and feel they must have their work protected if they are going to get a return. At the same time, once something ships it is in the public domain and open to inspection and understanding by others. The F1 guys spend a lot of time and money developing that fancy winglet in the wind tunnel but, once they run it, it is out there for public consumption and open to being understood, learned from and even copied. I am a fan of NO READs and a commitment from all tool vendors to honor the NO READ. That is unrealistic so I can understand why you would want to lock everyone out of their PCM when your stuff is installed. I just feel that approach has its own problems. All of the above being said, I am not EFIDude. I started that thread as a public discussion of a topic I was interested in and to shed light on the technical aspects of protection along with the “what’s fair” part.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Cobb’s stand on locked versus unlocked files and locked versus unlocked PCMs?

Derex'8

iTrader: (4)

So whats the word on the reprogrammer? are there any maps avaliable?

Highway8

iTrader: (11)

I e-mailed EFIdude asking about maps and this was the reply I got.

"The idea of EFIDude is not so much to provide maps for people to use in their cars, but rather to provide the tools to do it yourself. We don’t have maps for your specific car, but if you want we’ll make you a map that’s a good starting point until the complete tuning capability is available. We’ll also post the map we made for your car on our website for other people with similar setups to use. And again, this is only an interim step until the custom tuning package is available. At that point you can make whatever map you want and use it for whatever you want. If you are not comfortable tuning your car yourself, we suggest hooking up with a local Mazda rotary tuning shop and providing them the tool to do the job for you (once the custom tuning package is available)."

Derex'8

iTrader: (4)

I'm leaning more and more towards the AP

NaarLeven

bi big big big big price diff here man.