Reflashed today using EFIDudes
03-04-2008, 06:15 AM
#51
Hopefully all of these tools will turn out to be useful but I think it helps to make the distinction between tools and tuners.
Tools let you modify a map file and put that modification on a car. Tuners provide the intelligence to modify the file. Tuners can be Scott, Cam, Jim, Jeff and more or just plain you and me.
As for the tools, I look at the AP as kind of like Snap-On and EFIDude as Craftsman. They can do similar things but are completely different in their approach to doing the job. Sometimes you need Snap-On and sometimes Craftsman will do.
The nice thing about the AP is that a tuner has gotten behind it and is selling it WITH his tunes. This is his value add for buying the tool from him and it is a neat service. If you do not want to play with this tuning stuff, then Jeff can provide you with a pre-packaged solution.
If you do want to play with this tuning stuff, you could choose to join in the creation and testing of tunes for everyone. I started a thread called https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-engine-tuning-forum-63/open-source-naturally-aspirated-performance-tune-file-139327/ to try and start a collection of tunes together with the thought process and related data plots that went into their creation. Anyone can use these tunes as they are or as a starting point for modification. Given that they will be in generic form, any tool with an import generic file option will be able to use them (like the EFIDude tool). NaarLeven has been kind enough to start the process so there is one (free) tune already out there that bumps horsepower. Hopefully there is more with a little more (group) effort.
As for which way to go, I plan on buying both which is a bit piggish but I just can not help myself.
Tools let you modify a map file and put that modification on a car. Tuners provide the intelligence to modify the file. Tuners can be Scott, Cam, Jim, Jeff and more or just plain you and me.
As for the tools, I look at the AP as kind of like Snap-On and EFIDude as Craftsman. They can do similar things but are completely different in their approach to doing the job. Sometimes you need Snap-On and sometimes Craftsman will do.
The nice thing about the AP is that a tuner has gotten behind it and is selling it WITH his tunes. This is his value add for buying the tool from him and it is a neat service. If you do not want to play with this tuning stuff, then Jeff can provide you with a pre-packaged solution.
If you do want to play with this tuning stuff, you could choose to join in the creation and testing of tunes for everyone. I started a thread called https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-engine-tuning-forum-63/open-source-naturally-aspirated-performance-tune-file-139327/ to try and start a collection of tunes together with the thought process and related data plots that went into their creation. Anyone can use these tunes as they are or as a starting point for modification. Given that they will be in generic form, any tool with an import generic file option will be able to use them (like the EFIDude tool). NaarLeven has been kind enough to start the process so there is one (free) tune already out there that bumps horsepower. Hopefully there is more with a little more (group) effort.
As for which way to go, I plan on buying both which is a bit piggish but I just can not help myself.
03-04-2008, 06:19 AM
#52
Hey Jeff or Christian, can the AP import a generic (PHF or BIN) file for inclusion into the AP format?
When you are done working on the file, can the AP export it in a generic format so it can be posted on the forum for others to use with tools of their choice? This would make the AP usable for helping to generate the collection of open source free tunes wihtout being locked into any one tool set.
When you are done working on the file, can the AP export it in a generic format so it can be posted on the forum for others to use with tools of their choice? This would make the AP usable for helping to generate the collection of open source free tunes wihtout being locked into any one tool set.
03-04-2008, 02:12 PM
#54
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Yeah man, this isnt a Cobb vs. Efidude issue at all. Its just a different option to take other than the AP (which is badass). The AP appeals to the masses and boasts the ability to be a complete plug-n-play if you so choose it to be, hence getting pretuned maps that you dont have to touch at all. The Efidude tool is taking a slightly different approach in that it will provide a safe, starter type map if you want and from this we are to make changes to the tables ourselves in a step by step manner on the path to the tuned map that we see fit for our cars. How do we know what changes to make? That is where the shared info comes into play. If we share all of our work, we can pick and choose which changes we believe applies (and what works) to what we are looking for with each application. The sharing maps is so important because not all 8's will react the same with any one single map....there are differences between the 06-08 rx8's and the 04-05's. Also you have to take into account different mods that effect airflow and such as intakes, midpipes, exhausts, FI ect.
So if i post up that my car is 2004, with 50k miles, midpipe and exhaust and i list before data showing where my AFR's, MAF's, LTFT's, ect. are (the logger will show this), you will be able to compare that data with that of your own car. And if your car is also an 04, with same mods and with relatively the same data as mine, then it would be safe to assume that the modified map i use will also work the same on your car. So you could simply take the info i used to make my map and apply those changes yourself to make your own map to flash your car with. And if you wanted to be a little safer/conservative with your map, you could tweak it down a little, make the changes, upload to your car and go out and data log a session (and eventually dyno for #'s) and see where you are at and if you would like to stay there great, or you can make changes accordingly.
Above is just and example, but you get the gist of it.
So if i post up that my car is 2004, with 50k miles, midpipe and exhaust and i list before data showing where my AFR's, MAF's, LTFT's, ect. are (the logger will show this), you will be able to compare that data with that of your own car. And if your car is also an 04, with same mods and with relatively the same data as mine, then it would be safe to assume that the modified map i use will also work the same on your car. So you could simply take the info i used to make my map and apply those changes yourself to make your own map to flash your car with. And if you wanted to be a little safer/conservative with your map, you could tweak it down a little, make the changes, upload to your car and go out and data log a session (and eventually dyno for #'s) and see where you are at and if you would like to stay there great, or you can make changes accordingly.
Above is just and example, but you get the gist of it.
03-04-2008, 02:16 PM
#55
Hey Jeff or Christian, can the AP import a generic (PHF or BIN) file for inclusion into the AP format?
When you are done working on the file, can the AP export it in a generic format so it can be posted on the forum for others to use with tools of their choice? This would make the AP usable for helping to generate the collection of open source free tunes wihtout being locked into any one tool set.
When you are done working on the file, can the AP export it in a generic format so it can be posted on the forum for others to use with tools of their choice? This would make the AP usable for helping to generate the collection of open source free tunes wihtout being locked into any one tool set.
Once again, I don't understand why you believe that people want to give you their hard work for free.
The AP does what it does.
Your guy's stuff does what it does.
If you want to give it away, feel free.
However, don't expect people to slave away at unlocking this stuff, putting their cars - and their beta tester's cars - at risk just to give you the tuning data so you can be the next, self-proclaimed Linus Torvald.
03-04-2008, 02:55 PM
#56
Yes and no. You won't be able to "pull" the map from the PCM using the Dudes offereing. But what Lola is saying is that if a "generic" file is made available to others, then they can load it, and edit it, in a caring sharing type of way if they choose.
Personally, I'm not comfortable in distributing a file format (the firmware image) that is not my work. But I have other ideas already implemeneted - so people can share their work if they choose. So the problem becomes where does one get the "original" firmware image from? Yes - you can spend the money and buy the tools (MMP and a Cardaq etc) from MazdaTechInfo. But that doesn't mean the file is yours to distribute - I'm sure there would be copyright issues with that. Plus the fact you cannot use the MMP to grab any old flash image. It will only pull one from the server if the currently connected ECU is not up to date.
I've already made it known that the Hymee tool will allow ALL of the existing mapping information to be read from the PCM prior to editing it. Sorry - that belongs on my thread. But there is not a real conflict between the dude's stuff and mine.
Cheers,
Hymee.
03-04-2008, 03:21 PM
#59
Administrator
im sure you were reading this thread at the time- https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ighlight=flash
seikrx8 was the one to figure it out. post 276 is where he describes it and later in 296 but that whole page is valuable reading
seikrx8 was the one to figure it out. post 276 is where he describes it and later in 296 but that whole page is valuable reading
03-04-2008, 03:36 PM
#60
im sure you were reading this thread at the time- https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ighlight=flash
seikrx8 was the one to figure it out. post 276 is where he describes it and later in 296 but that whole page is valuable reading
seikrx8 was the one to figure it out. post 276 is where he describes it and later in 296 but that whole page is valuable reading
I'll go and have a read of that, but before I do, I'd like to say that this is what happens...
The MMP doesn't have ANY maps on your PC. When you connect and do a PCM programming operation AND it determines that you need an update, THEN it goes to the server and gets the latest file. And it stores that file on the PC, in a very easy to see place. Now, let me go read that link and see if it matches my experience...
Cheers,
Hymee.
03-04-2008, 04:23 PM
#61
Well, after reading that, it still says to me the MMP still gets the flashes from the server. But I'll read it again anyway.
Very sneaky though. Sco talked about bypassing the server verification using a similar technique, but it was just just that..
Let me say that I have paid my own way in using the mazda tool totally legitamately, and not bypassed any of it's security mechanisms. People wrote the software for a living, they shouldn't be denied income because someone doesn't want to pay.
Cheers,
Hymee.
Very sneaky though. Sco talked about bypassing the server verification using a similar technique, but it was just just that..
Let me say that I have paid my own way in using the mazda tool totally legitamately, and not bypassed any of it's security mechanisms. People wrote the software for a living, they shouldn't be denied income because someone doesn't want to pay.
Cheers,
Hymee.
03-04-2008, 04:39 PM
#62
No and no.
Once again, I don't understand why you believe that people want to give you their hard work for free.
The AP does what it does.
Your guy's stuff does what it does.
If you want to give it away, feel free.
However, don't expect people to slave away at unlocking this stuff, putting their cars - and their beta tester's cars - at risk just to give you the tuning data so you can be the next, self-proclaimed Linus Torvald.
Once again, I don't understand why you believe that people want to give you their hard work for free.
The AP does what it does.
Your guy's stuff does what it does.
If you want to give it away, feel free.
However, don't expect people to slave away at unlocking this stuff, putting their cars - and their beta tester's cars - at risk just to give you the tuning data so you can be the next, self-proclaimed Linus Torvald.
I do not think my question came across the right way as I was not talking about taking tuner's files. Here is where I was going-
The forum jointly develops open source maps. An AP owner wants to try one. Can he import the open source map and put it on his/her car with the AP?
If yes, can the AP owner then try a change on the file, verify it works then export his/her work product so it could be put back on the forum for others to try?
At no point am I suggesting that the AP provide any tuner's files for posting on the forum. I was just asking if AP owners could help contribute to the open source files.
03-04-2008, 05:15 PM
#63
Well, since only people in the Cobb PRO tuner network have access to the software and since we are bound to keep our proprietary info undisclosed, I'd say the answer would be no.
Once the commercial software is available, I'm sure there will be people willing to post CSV files of their mapping, but it will be their effort and I can tell you that "portability" will not be a simple task.
Moreover, I can tell you that there are features of the PCM that are only accessible to the AP at this time.
Whether EFI or anyone else will uncover those remains to be seen, but I can assure you that there will not be a mad rush to share that sort of info - especially since it was gained by methods unavailable to the other companies.
Once the commercial software is available, I'm sure there will be people willing to post CSV files of their mapping, but it will be their effort and I can tell you that "portability" will not be a simple task.
Moreover, I can tell you that there are features of the PCM that are only accessible to the AP at this time.
Whether EFI or anyone else will uncover those remains to be seen, but I can assure you that there will not be a mad rush to share that sort of info - especially since it was gained by methods unavailable to the other companies.
03-04-2008, 05:37 PM
#65
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With a lesser ECU, IMO the craftsman model would do fine.... however, in our case there are few that have the time and understanding to do things completely right using just the basic tools and no good place to start from.
03-04-2008, 05:53 PM
#66
If it is too complicated then work with a professional tuner. No problem.
For me, there is as much fun in the doing and learning as there is in using the end product. I can not tell you the fun I have had playing with the automated boost control and 9th butterfly stuff on the Cosworth XD. Their boost control is awesome. Sure, it took a bit of thinking to get up the learning curve with it but it was well worth the effort. My next task is the whole torque map deal (ChampCar legal traction control).
For me, there is as much fun in the doing and learning as there is in using the end product. I can not tell you the fun I have had playing with the automated boost control and 9th butterfly stuff on the Cosworth XD. Their boost control is awesome. Sure, it took a bit of thinking to get up the learning curve with it but it was well worth the effort. My next task is the whole torque map deal (ChampCar legal traction control).
03-07-2008, 08:02 PM
#71
Naar,
Are you ready for round two? It seems like 13:1 would be a good target so there is more to be had. I can get some more time on the dyno if you would not mind the file going up on the Open Source NA Tune thread.
Are you ready for round two? It seems like 13:1 would be a good target so there is more to be had. I can get some more time on the dyno if you would not mind the file going up on the Open Source NA Tune thread.
