lolachampcar

I’ve been going back and forth on a couple of threads about tools to do your own RX-8 tuning. I’d like to step back a minute and put the cart back behind the horse.

Apart from the few people I am working with, does anyone out there really want to tune their own car? Is there a need for an open tuning tool for the average guy? What percentage of enthusiasts will buy a pre-packaged option from a tuner versus working on the forum to collectively learn how to do it themselves?

As the title states, please do not respond if you are a professional tuner.

sosonic

Does anyone out there really want to tune their own car? Yes, now release the software.

Is there a need for an open tuning tool for the average guy? Yes. People want to see what changes have what effect on the performance of the car. There is need for collaboration and consensus on the value of specific changes.

What percentage of enthusiasts will buy a pre-packaged option from a tuner versus working on the forum to collectively learn how to do it themselves?

I don't mind tuning myself. Furthermore there are other things too... Like turning on the fans at an earlier temp., increasing the rev limit, etc... Those also can be done by common RX-8 drivers and I'm sure there will be a demand for limited changes on up to more complicated changes.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

now, if the "tool" consists of a hex editor where you get to wade through a couple hundred random non-descript maps without any guide as to what to do and a dongle that allows you to upload your changes... are you going to be as anxious to do this?

mysql

You're being too vague about it.

Before an average consumer can tell you if it's desirable or not, you need to accurately describe "tuning", what would need to be done, what the software would be like, and what kinds of things they would be required to know and look out for. You'd also need to describe the dangers, and how all this stuff works.

The general non specific answer to your non specific question is, of course - "sure, we would like it."


The true answer for the general consumer would be "no." There is a risk / reward for someone who does not truly understand afr, timing, ve, and how a half dozen overlapping maps modify each other in various load/rpm/climate variations gives seeming inconstant results. That risk far outweighs any perceived gain by the reward or saving a few hundred dollars.

Simply put, you give the average consumer, and indeed even the average enthusiast, too much credit. The amount of background and information and knowledge is simply not worth the risk and for Joe Average. The only way around this is to make the maps that come with the software 95% functional for all cars that make use of it, and then the "tuning software" becomes "tweaking software".

lolachampcar

Mysql,
I have a slightly different opinion about the average guy as I have been one all my life. I used to think there was something magical about tuning only to find out that it is just air/fuel timing and making then verifying small steps. My Open Source thread was an attempt to walk through that process in small steps documenting the process along the way so all could follow. It was my hope that the end result would be 04, 05, 06, 07 NA files that people could use as starting points for their own efforts to tweak.

I am living proof that you do not have to tweak a gazillion tables to tune a car. I am sorry, but that is simply not the case no matter how many times however many people tell you it is the case. I am proving it to people right now, one at a time. I'd hoped the Open Source thread would do it publicly but no one wants to put up with the crap of actually doing work in the open on the thread. I can not blame them.

What I am finding is that, although I am an average Joe, I play with non-average things. I trust common sense to avoid most catastrophes and thus am not afraid to do most anything mechanical or electrical. When was the last time you used air gage tooling to check bearing wear while assembling a Cosworth XD V8 Champcar motor? Doing that does not make me any better than you but it does demonstrate my willingness to dive into interesting projects.

When it comes to tuning RX-8s, I fear that far too few want to have anything to do with it. That may be for pure lack of interest or because they were scared away by people that stand to make money from doing so; I do not know which.

As for the freeware package, the prototypes I have seen are simple X-Y tables of Load v RPM for the target Lambda and Timing maps. There are also things like fans and rpm limits and such. I think they can add just about anything in the stock firmware if they like. The question becomes, why finish the freeware if there is no interest or the earth has already been scorched? If there are one or two guys out there that have bought the EFIDude tools and will be disappointed, I can simply ship them the maps for their particular firmware and do the edits for them using WinOLS (kinda like the Open Source thread). I'd rather see the EFIDudes spend their time on projects that will help more people.

I've been accused of loosing patience. It may look that way but I really think it is more a matter of spending my time where it does some good.

Phil's 8

iTrader: (3)

There are a lot of enthusiasts out there that believe they know more than they do. I can just see the wave of detonated engines after a release of an open tuning system. I am sure that there are enthusiasts out there that can tune their cars but just using the average owner in Vegas as an example, we would have 10 blown engines out of 12 and two of the 12 would only buy it to give to their tuners. This is not speaking ill of the Vegas owners, just a fact and I am sure that would hold true everywhere.

Would I have you withhold it? Absolutely not. - You don't mind if I do the prudent thing and have a top tuner do mine on a system that makes it difficult for me to make a mistake.

lolachampcar

I would not mind a bit and understand perfectly.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

Lolachampcar,
Since you are friendly with with the EFIDude company. Maybe you can get them to show/tell us of what is upcoming. Their site is very short of details of what can be accomplished with their product. They need to show me why I should buy it. I haven't committed to any system yet.
I'm not asking you to be a spokesman for them. That is their job.

Celronx

iTrader: (1)

I agree with GTAW and alnielson. Competition is good, but right now we don't even know what EFID is bringing to the table. We have an idea from what you've said and what's on the site, but that is still pretty vague. I have an AP from MM but I don't have any problem getting rid of it and getting EFID's software/hardware if it turns out in the long run to be a better system.

I want to eventually have the ability to tune myself. I have future plans for this car which include some pretty major things. That's one of the reasons I went with the AP. I know in the future they will have the Street Tuner software available. What will it be able to do? We don't know for sure, but we know what the AP itself is capable of, and that's why I went with it now.

A lot of people want to tune their cars themselves. A lot of people will blow their motors learning how to tune them. I might be one of those people. I accept that because it's a learning process and you're going to pay for the knowledge one way or another. But, I'm never going to state that I want to tune my car with EFID's software without at least looking at the interface and what it can do. I have an idea of what Cobb's stuff will look and perform like from the Subie crowd. With EFID's stuff, all I have is my imagination.

Cel

heyarnold69

iTrader: (1)

do not tune yourself if you dont know what your doing! always get together with 5 or 6 guys and lots of beer before tuning! this is a sacred rule.

it helps if one of those guys owns a dyno ...

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, you posted in your tuning thread 1 afr map and 1 timing map in an excel spreadsheet. No description of which map it was. Everyone and their brother who has researched things just a little bit knows there are seperate maps even for just the different gears. There was no way to rescale the maf sensor on the spreadsheets. No way of dealing with the maps that cause rich conditions from CAT temp protection strategies. No clue as to what was going on except for that 1 mystery table.

You gave 1 nondescript matrix to plug in a desired afr, another that multiplies the lambda by 14.6, and that was it... it IS a bit more complicated then that and many people here seriously start wondering how much you really know about the ecu and its programming because of things like that

zoom44

if it looks like SCT's Pro Racer package

http://www.sctflash.com/PRPFord.php



or

Cobb's Street Tuner

http://www.cobbtuning.com/products/?id=2920&rsku=0



or Sniper Tuning's "commando software"

http://www.snipertuning.com/new/product.phtml?p=9



btw Fellas they have loggers that work just fine^^


then hell yea- what i have been pushing for years to get is a tuning tool for this community. i have long discussions with various tuning companies for years- sent them Mazda's maps cajoled them with the possibility of the others coming out first- ask swoope 'cause he's been doing the same thing

Hell Sniper has flashed a custom tune on a car like 2 years ago now- swoope can tel you more specifically) if they had stuck with it instead of playing the ford game against SCT we'd have been doing this for a year already.

So dont ask "if" we want it. Tell us what "yours" does give us some screen shots etc. Because quite frankly myself and many others are tired of playing the "IF" game with companies and want reality.

We've been jerked around enough and just want someone to get on with selling us the dang tool already.

but not some silly hex editor. hell i changed things in Mazda flash over a year ago in a free ware hex editor i found on line(which ask some folks around here that have knowledge of my computer savvy how scary a thought that is). Thats not tuning and its not fun slogging thru the code. Ask Seik about that since he is the one i know who did the most "open" work on the hex and found many of the tables

zoom44

btw bill -

this quote from the Sniper site

Sounds remarkably like the EFIDude info

what is the relationship between Sniper and EFIDude?

cheeto

in all honesty, at first when you wrote the Open source tuning thread, i was all excited and thought it was a good idea, but now that i have been reading a lot about tuning, it is not a good idea. the rotary engines can be finicky, and one simple mistake in the tune could be catastrophic, and this software would have to be for the not light of heart.

If you did do this, i would require them to do an extensive amount of reading about 3 things: Air, fuel, and timing. without knowledge on these things, people will not know how to productively tune their engine.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

simple answer: NO.

Despite my knowledge of cars and thorough knowledge of the RX-8, I have zero desire to start tinkering with something that I do not fully understand nor do I need to spend time understanding.

I'll leave it up the guys with the knowledge and tools to do a better job then I.

Derex'8

iTrader: (4)

Yes, and am patiently awaiting the release of COBB's AccessTuner Race for the rx8 (Main Reason why I bought the AP).

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

I'll buy Cobb's software as well for my car since its only a few bucks... more though to get a better understanding on whats going on - as my car is already tuned to my liking

zoom44

not to pick on Mr. Harrison (because he did allot of good for this community with his previosu product)



but seriously if we are talking about some hex editor like that with the axes not even labeled properly then hell no.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

It's not any different that any other car or than in the old days. You changed jets in the carb to change the AFR. You use to crank on the distributer to change the timing. The rotary just had an addition to the distributer to change the trailing timing. Yes, you have to be careful and know what your doing but nothing has really changed. Just the way you make the change.

mysql

did you have a different carb for the different gears? lol

zoom44

yeah and we swapped them on the fly

swoope

iTrader: (5)

adding to what zoom said. and he covered most of what the common user needs.

sniper had started over 3 yrs ago. the software was done last sept. that was straight from the guy that does the programing.. why they did not release it i think we will never know, i have a good idea. but unless it comes out of snipers mouth we will never know.

open source is not really going to do it.. what is needed is the slick interface software that modifies the hex, that is user friendly.

right now mm is the slick software!!!! thx jeff! thank you for the greater good!

cobb i think will have it soon. hymee not to long after, i hope.

harrison, who knows.

btw, i do not have an ap. so i have not dog in this fight.. i have learned to lend my car to help or send parts to help. the early adopter thing does not work for me..

i am just waiting for my free sniper product..



beers

zoom44

gawd!!! is it 3 years already with sniper and SCT etc?

f-ers

and the one guy i could rely on at SCT to really push SCT for us from the inside actually moved over to DrewTech over a year ago.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

yep,

i did send you the emails?

beers