lolachampcar

No relation to Sniper that I know of apart from being in the same state.

Heat officially too hot in the kitchen for me. MM wins.

Bye Guys..

cheeto

yes, but the level of precision of EFI to carb is a whole lot more complex. im just saying, good tuning isnt for the soft of heart unless you know your stuff. you cant just hand someone a piece of software, and expect them to make the correct calibrations. I can only imagine the amount of research or hands on learning that MM did.

i dont mean to shoot you down lolachampcar, but i just dont want to see a bunch of engines getting blown cause people dont know what they are doing (not saying i would be very good at it either).

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

LOL.

I guess he's gone again, so I can comment in this thread!

Not much to add, really. I think all of you know my motives and my reasoning.
I'm not a professional - I just play one on TV.

However, I took the bull by the horns on this one because, like Zoom, I was tired of being toyed with by the industry.
And I had spent sufficient time with the problems and minutiae of the system that I felt I had a pretty good chance at getting it right.

When the time comes, the "RACE" version of the software will be out there and people will start playing with the calibrations and realize that it is a real adventure.

Does anyone remember that episode of "The Twilight Zone" where the guy starts gradually hearing people use wrong words in normal conversation? As it progresses, he realizes that the words he is using are also wrong and, by the end, he has to completely re-learn the English language?

Tuning the PCM is a bit like that.

Spin9k

Yes, I want tuning software. Yes, it should have a visual interface 3D as it is nicest as being able to "see" what going on, for me, is how I understand best. 3D tuning maps are so clear, and show everything in one place. That's just me. X-Y tables are acceptable, and of course ok for some parameters one might want to adjust ... but overall things are better concentrated in a visual presentation whenever possible.....

Beyond that some docs on use are essential. I want some advice on best practices, although there is quite a bit on info already out here. The 'learning' part is essential and although I realize I know little, I want to progress as my understanding allows. I think people hesitate doing things that 'can' get them in trouble. Tuning your expensive car without knowledge is certainly one of those things that shouldn't be attempted without full knowledge of what you are attempting. The more people that can contribute the more 'views' to understanding there will be....and the more tuning there will be that produced useful results.


Someone telling me tuning is too hard to understand isn't helpful. I have a mind and am willing to use it. Beyond that I have the ability to understand and comprehend. Making my own mistakes is my perogative and ongoing "failure" is the best way to learn. I wouldn't be where I am right now without the ability to screw things up, then correct my work, and I intend to keep right on learning that way. Keeping tuning knowledge 'priestly' and telling me it's too hard is arrogant and something rather I should be the judge of.

Packaged tunes may be OK in theory, but I 'know" that they are a compromise, a lowest common denominator approach by default. And even possibly harmful if the tune was made with a stock car in mind and I am not stock even if only in some small way. Also they will never exploit all the potential. There are so many variables, I simply want to 'do it myself' if at all practical so I have ability to account for my particular situation, whatever it is, whenever I choose.

You've discussed the question of the "add this, subtract this" type prepackaged tune method elsewhere and the fact is it is cumbersome and inexact and requires the cooperation of others to accomplish. Never a good situation if you need to make changes on-the-fly with your 'crutch' unavailable.

----

As far as EFIDude I consider that essential regardless of anything else I might want to use to tune with, even in it's present 'unfinished state'. Why? Because it is an elegantly visually simple way to 'see' what is going on in your ECU & car thru the 10 parameters it graphs. In the RX-8 world there is nothing so cheap, so simple to use, so uselful in what it does. Why would just any Joe get it? Even if they never even want to tune? Read the 1st sentence in this paragraph again. It's your very own visual diagnostic tool in the palm of your hand. Even if you only stare at the pretty pictures it makes, it's a steal for $150. It entirely replaces any other tool w/cable logging data to a notebook, that then needs it's data exported and formated and turned into graphs - - - with a simple appliance weighing but a few grams AND it logs for a few HOURS without attention. Whoa! People should be throwing money at EFIDude IMHO.

The fact it can flash an RX-8 for another $150 'may' make it the best deal in town, and that will become a "without a doubt" when a tool to tune is made available to use along with it. Again being dependent on someone to 'make a tune' is ok, but impractical in the long run. So time will tell, but for something just 'out of the blue' EFIDude has done already in it's present state what no one else has done before. Kudos just for that are well deserved!

Bastage

iTrader: (1)

The product works very well, which makes it a bargain. I was able to see it used as a reflasher and it's straightforward enough for anyone with half a brain to pick it up and learn. As a logger it's a no brainer. I was able to plug it in and log a 107 mile trip from Pettit's shop back to my house. It allowed me to observe if any LTFTs were building up during the steady throttle/speed portions of my trip, and verify for myself that the tune was not running the engine too lean. The Dude left me with a safe and effective tune with no trim buildup. If you're just learning this stuff and don't feel like spending a small fortune on a tool peddled by someone that's very easy to dislike, it's easy for me the recommend the Dude.

kristopher_d

My only motivation for wanting an open solution is to add features. Launch control, no-lift-shift, anti-lag, proper traction control (not just stability, there is a BIG difference), brake bias control, turn assist(I doubt our stock diffs can do it), the list goes on. Most of the sensors and control units are already there, doing other stuff.

I know, it's wish list, and I'm probably best off mailing it to the north pole, but you can't blame a guy for wishing.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

You won't get that.
The PCM points at those devices and says "Do your thing!", but it doesn't make the decisions.
You could probably turn those things off if you wanted to, though.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

Although, for the subie guys Cobb has done launch control and no lift shifting...

zoom44

thats because those items are conrolled via the PCM. Our PCM does not. those things have seperate control modules that just let the pcm know they are there and doing their job.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

Not exactly as far as I know.

The launch control feature simply allows you to lower the rev limiter when the car is not moving... so you could go up to the line, floor the gas, have it bang off the limiter at 4k rpms, then drop the clutch and away you go. Its more of a stutterbox setup then a true launch control working with the ABS system - but hey, its something! We already have a coolant temp based rev limiter and a cat temp limiter programmed into our pcm's... so that might be doable...

The flat foot shifting just auto cuts the gas when you pop the clutch at high rpms... since we have an electronic throttle thats also perhaps doable.

mysql

heh. Complaining about fuel management costing $699

That's ~what the EMU and Canzoomers ran.

kristopher_d

Well, luckily they're all on the bus, so now we just need to be able to reflash the other components too. :/ Oh, and figure out what the hell we're doing.

Bastage

iTrader: (1)

If you could find one that was equally proficient, less expensive, AND had good bedside manners, you would.

mysql

As long as you didn't overhear him asking other hospital staff for pointers and offering $1000 for their help with your surgery.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

^ Did Bastage actually say that?

I guess he meant inept and expensive, but friendly!

Since when is $1200 for a one-time reflash that pops your car a bargain, even if the guy your buying it from is a back-slapper?

Celronx

iTrader: (1)

Nice doesn't get you far when your motor goes BOOM.

He's been very professional and very helpfull to me in my dealings with him regarding the AP.

But, oh yea, I'd like to be able to tune my car myself. Then I can be nice to myself when my car goes BOOM and make myself feel better.

Cel

Bastage

iTrader: (1)

The Pettit flash has been on my car (and excellent) for 5 months (~3500 miles), so all the talk of ineptitude is bullshit. What blown motors? If you mean blown as in FIed, yeah, Pettit has blown many motors. If you mean blown as in busted seal, I have yet to hear of one, but I don't spend more than a couple of hours a week on this forum, so maybe I'm missing something?

arghx7

This is kind of an odd debate. Threads like this show just how "young" of a platform the Rx-8 really is and how reluctant the average owner is to modify it compared to some other platforms at least. Allow me to shed light on how the 3rd generation Rx-7 (FD) progressed as far as the world of tuning goes.

The Renesis is about where the FD was around 1999 or so (similarly, 5ish years after the car came out). A lot of the owners were just finishing up their car payments or a new crop of owners picked up the car secondhand and really wanted to get into modding. The only thing that had been available up to that point was a reflashed ECU from companies like Pettit, and you had people doing piggyback setups with Apex'i SAFC's, HKS F-CON, and all that late 90's technology.

In 1999 though the Apex'i Power FC came out. At the time it was one of the first plug & play standalones that really gave people the ability to adjust just about everything--fuel and timing, cranking fuel, injector scaling, new MAP sensor (FD has no MAF unlike the Renesis and the 2nd gen Rx-7), etc. But few people knew how to use it well, and Apex'i designed the software initially so that only the certified shops could do serious tuning and all you had was a cumbersome hand controller.

By say 2002-2003 though, widebands were finally becoming available. A 3rd party laptop interface became available for the Power FC as well, and a lot of tuning information started circulating around as the pioneers really figured out what works and what doesn't in terms of both driveability settings and performance (ignition advance curve, split curve, that type of thing). Now just about anyone who owns an FD is an enthusiast. The people who aren't rotorheads naturally filtered themselves out of the ownership pool, so a lot more people are willing to tune the car themselves or buy the software and take it somewhere. Nowadays it's not uncommon to run the hardcore standalones that require you to rewire the whole vehicle, such as a Haltech.

The ultimate point here is that the Renesis is where the FD was in 1999. New tuning options are coming out, people are a bit tentative about adopting them though, and there are a lot of unanswered questions. The average owner is not a grizzled veteran, nor are there even grizzled tuning veterans who can just say "search n00b" because all the big tuning questions have been answered, or at least hotly debated. Just give it time. You'll get it all figured out. The more options, the better. And you have to be a COMPLETE dumbass to cause serious engine damage on a fully n/a motor. Seriously. Before my 2nd gen with a big single turbo I drove a nonturbo 2nd gen, advanced the crap out of the timing on 87 octane and never once detonated it (although thats only 9.4:1 compression).

The rumors of rotary fragility are overblown, especially in a naturally aspirated application. You just have to really understand what is going on in the engine and keep all the parameters in balance (AFR's, intake temps, exhaust temps, advance and split curve, etc). I've had 20psi boost spikes and audible detonation on my engine, idled it on only half a quart of oil (seriously), overheated it to over 250 degrees, and it still keeps on trucking killing STi's, 350Z's, and the like.

EDIT: and interestingly enough, this whole flash tuning thing has come full circle. After 20 years a sort of flash tuning is now available for the 2nd gen cars (Rtek chip) which allows you to edit the fuel and timing maps, VDI activation point, etc.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

nice post man and i totally agree. right now we are just a bunch of dogs sniffing each others butts---soon we will get by that. Already have come a long way.
olddragger

cheeto

^ my main point. the normal people here dont know enough to really understand those things (im not saying i know everything either)