ARCTiC

Hi there. So i were reading those threads about AP, and looked at those dedicate device (ie: Cobb). As someone else were asking into another thread, i were thinking if a ECU reprogramming is possible via a standard OBD-II interface using your PC, but i didn't got the point yet!
It's just a matter of software, so it's technically possible, or those interfaces are using a sort of different hardware to reflash the ECU?
In other words, i have my OBDLink permanent installed into my car for monitoring purposes (CarPC), i may be able to use it for reprogramming purposes (assuming that a PC software exists...)?
The reason of my question is obvious: i've got already everything, it wouldn't make much sense to spend hundreds dollars to purchase the same hardware again.

Kane

iTrader: (1)

Can you read and write in binary or machine level language?

Flashing a solid state memory isnt hard.... decoding and making it usable however requires a lot of manhours. Which Cobb has already done, and hence the price they charge.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

You aren't the only one to consider de-coding the ECU so you can flash it yourself, outside of what COBB and a few other vendors have done.

Yes, it is entirely possible. How much of your time it will take depends on your ability to work with that language level (binary mainly). There is another member here in new england who showed me what all he has done so far in decoding the 8's ECU. He does it as a hobby, for kicks. He also mentioned that any time he even attempts to discuss it at all, he gets lots of people that flame him and just reply back "just get the cobb", rather than actual collaboration of people that recognize the enjoyment and self education in doing it yourself.

So expect that reaction to if you try discuss it. I'm guessing they wills how up here soon enough as it is.

If you want his handle here, PM me, and I'll give it to you, I'm sure he would be more than happy to discuss it with you...off the boards.

The drama on the boards on anything touching the Cobb isn't worth making the attempt publicly. (and one of the biggest reasons I'm not sold on it as the right solution)

Kane

iTrader: (1)

Meh...PM is irrelevent. Get the Hymee, then you can decode all the tables you want - it reads them all.

But then your into hardware again...saves you from having to go machine level though.

There is one more out there that has it in hex dec or machine.... I forget.

They exist but they all still require hardware to read and write to the pcm that I am aware of.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

PM was only for the other guy's name.

And agreed, Hymee's product has it's appeal.

ARCTiC

I'm not discussing the price. I'm a programmer, so i know the software value (and all the time spent in research). I were just trying to figure if those devices were different at hardware level, but i assume (now) they are not.
I may have the skill the decode the ECU, but that's not what i am for (it would take so much time and resource, that would be alot more convenient to me to pay someone else that already did it).
My question so was only about the "tools" required, rather than the skill involved.
So here it comes the next question: there's any reason why these ppl are not selling the (PC) software itself, rather than the whole package, to help ppl like me (and i'm sure i'm not alone) to save money, since we already own all the required hardware? They would make money as well (selling the sw).
The only reason that comes to my mind (but i may be wrong) is that they would be "scared" about a possible rip-off, since hacking the sw on a PC would be simpler that hacking into a propertary reprogramming device.
To conclude: not having a specific software, today, is just a matter of decision rather than hardware limitations?

PS: i've looked at that APEX by obscan tool, they are doing exactly what i'm talking about (uploading a new flash via a standard OBD-II interface), but they are not "tuners". So you can actually step into your ECU.. would be good for someone to offer just a custom map (providing a log), for a certain price, instead of asking for 550euro for some hardware that i wouldn't use?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

No hardware limitations. If you have a device that can read the ECU at all, for any reason, and get that information stream to a laptop, then all you need is the decoding/software/etc...

The guy up here got a data-dump application and a standard ODB2 reader, plugged it into his 8, and dumped the entire ECU in about 4 minutes into a file on his PC.


I don't think there is a hardware limitation for transmitting into the ECU, as the hardware just opens the channel. The software either reads or reads and writes.

Kane

iTrader: (1)

In the case of the Cobb, the firmware on the brick has functions to prevent a bricked PCM, so it does have uses... the business model they chose was to place logic on the hardware itself so that check sums etc are part of the brick.

Efi Dude / Hymee does the same thing, but a much more rudimentary level. I am not exactly sure why no one ever pushed it all onto the laptop side of the house other than reliability and value added features like live gauges on the Cobb etc.....

ARCTiC

Tnx for the input. I believe that a PC "porting" would have a much more success, since you gonna eliminate a portion of the hardware (an ODD2 usb/BT interface costs less than $100) such as their standalone device, plus it opens the whole system to more potential usages.
I hope that someone (Mazdamaniacs itself, or anyone else) would think about it.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Unless you have deep pockets....or the equipment to fix a "bricked" EPCM..you had better be right all the time

My little experiments have cost me a new ECU and a couple of re-programming visits to the dealer to restore the "as built" data for the PCM to function. It is a little more complicated than just dealing with the PCM as well. It needs to be linked to talk to the other digital CAN bus units in the vehicle......

For the price of the COBB unit...it's not worth the effort

ARCTiC

I'm not sure, what's the difference of using the Cobb device versus using my PC, if [theorically] both will run the same software (or to be exact: both will read/write the same data)?

I don't wanna to "experiment", i want to purchase the software developed by someone else. I just want to use my PC and my ODB-II interface, instead of waste money to buy *another* one. Plus it would be alot more convenient to me to use the PC that is already into my car (since it's always available and "ready to go"), instead of attaching some fancy additional hardware anytime i need to manage with it.

So (again) the question is: why they aren't selling the software? It's a commercial decision or there's some technical explanation? If it's just a decision, i hope to see a "Cobb PC Version" (software only) for 1/3 of that price .. a day.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

The Pro Tuner is just software + the OBD11 interface (brick) . I'm sure it could be made to work on your car pc but there is no real time tuning function and like dan said a bricked ECU is always on the cards . Also it costs more than the AP

ARCTiC

I'm not sure if it's about my poor english (herm sorry ). I try again: if the Cobb engeneers did all their research to develop the correct data to NOT brick your ECU, why they doesn't sell the software as well? So ppl that doesn't own a PC would buy their complete package; but those ppl like me that already are using a PC aboard and their own OBD-II interface, would save "some" money. It's a decision or that "songle" is technically different that a OBD interface?
Does it make more sense now?

tamz273

Ive been really interested in teh exact same question for a while. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable with computers, and was wondering exactly what ARCTiC is wondering. I havent yet invested in a COBB, and dont want to run into it. I tried posting threads like this 3 times. All three times they were ignored and I got not answers, despite many 100 views..

Im not trying to pick on anyone here, or step on anyones toes, BUT, shouldnt you be able to flash an ECU using a laptop through the OBD2?? I was even looking for a COBB emulator so to speak.. Any ideas out there??

Also, Kane, may I have that user's ID in my PM Box please? Im VERY interested in getting involved with this... Could be a very cool project to do!

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Think you are confusing PRO tuner and Access Port . Two diferent products .

Pro Tuner would do what you want but carries a risk (of a bricked ECU) Accessport will not brick your ECU but won't work on a PC .
Does that explain it ?

ARCTiC

My initial doubts were all about the hardware: i tought that the firmware were accessed via a different type of interface, but then i've realized that is a "traditional" ODB-II. So technically you can replicate the data with any sort of device (PC, smartphones..) and a traditional OBD-II link.

COBB did all the reverse engeneering on data read and sent to the eprom (that is something that you can't do in one night), i guess they did a lot of data logging to figure wich "value" is "what", so indeed they are asking money for it.

The only question that remains so is the first one: why not selling a PC software? But only COBB may reply to this, it's probably due to commercial reasons: they did all the work, so they decided to offer the whole package instead of selling just a "piece" of it, giving to the competitors the possibility to selle their own hardware (this is not criticism: it's understandable).

The hopes is that they will change their minds, or that someone else decides to take a different route (but the market here isn't that huge, it's not that easy to find ppl investing time and resources into this.. if not for "passion").

To conclude, we're talking about this: http://www.obdscan.net/RX8_PGM.htm ...but again they are selling the whole package rather than the software itself.

ARCTiC

Not completely, since you didn't explained the reason of why a PC software (Pro Tuner or anything else) would carry a risk, and the AP doesn't.
Any technical explanation?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

/\ I don't know what the technical explanation is other than to say that the software is not good enough . I'm sure it could be improved upon if the seller were to put some effort into it .

ARCTiC

Ah ok, then i agree: it's a matter of software, not hardware (that's my initial point). So you can do anything that the AP does, providing the *same* data = having a software for a device (ie: a PC) that uses the same "logic". But that software doesn't exists, so you are "forced" to buy the whole package, even if you own already the required hardware. That's all.

(anyway, that's only my guess, the added security is provided by a piggyback used by the AP: you can check the firware prior to update the ECU, and then update the safe one. I'm unsure about a bricked ECU however, i believe that you can recover stock firmware with a reset, and then (re)upload the saved one. Anyway all of these operations can be performed via the AP or anything else.. *kwnowing how to do it*, that's the point ).

ARCTiC

It's time wake up and make our community to math our bros levels:

http://forum.mazda6club.com/mazdaspe...opment-66.html

now im jealous!

Kane

iTrader: (1)

Cobb AP FIRMWARE... (software that is hard coded onto the brick), runs the checksums as the final last "double secret probation" way to make sure the flash does not fry the PCM. They decided to tmake this firmware and tie it to the brick for whatever reason.

My guess is so that a user cannot do some dumb **** and kill their PCM since few if any Mazda dealers can reset it (ask me how I know).

I don't know the guys name who was using open source to edit the PCM... you'd have to search the forum.

At the end of the day, what youd really want is a Dash DAQ open sourde SDK knda thing with the firmaware for the IO calls to the PCM done and all you have to do s the software... but even that costs $700 bucks.

ARCTiC

If the CRC is wrong, the firmware doesn't hit the eprom (it gives back a CRC error after the uploading). Also our ECU supports a nice feature with the RAM emulation: you can actually upload a map into a "virtual RAM" (without writing to the eprom), it has the double purpose of saving the writing eprom cycles, and to check it prior than the final writing, so if something goes wrong, a normal reset (not a vendor reset) is enough to delete it and use the "old" one.
The possibility to fry it always exists, with AP or anything else, you can just reduce the risks.
Anyway we're (or i am) at a dead end ...whenever i may have the skill into logging, disassembling or whatever, i wouldn't near have the knowledge to interpeter all those values, or the time to apply to learn about it... so i hope into a third party development.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

give sniper tuning a call.. ask for tim... he is smart like way past rainman..

let us know how that turns out...

wow that was like 5 years ago now..



beers