Where do I start When learning how to tune?
11-05-2012 | 09:11 PM
#76
don't be so sure, you don't really know is what you're really saying
for starters, it ruins any chance of comparing WOT flow numbers, it also impacts how the PCM interprets Load
I've seen a number of people make themselves feel good by pumping their numbers up and then claiming they are making superior power, when in fact they aren't
ultimately acceleration rates don't lie ...
for starters, it ruins any chance of comparing WOT flow numbers, it also impacts how the PCM interprets Load
I've seen a number of people make themselves feel good by pumping their numbers up and then claiming they are making superior power, when in fact they aren't
ultimately acceleration rates don't lie ...
11-05-2012 | 10:18 PM
#77
Yes, adjusting the MAF scaling also affects the calcLoad. But there is no special reason to assume that the MAF wire is any more 'accurate' than any other 5% typical resistor. Same for the other sensors feeding info into the load calc. Claims regarding max gm/sec using just the info available from an AP, are not going to be credible within 10% or so, whether one chooses to mess with the MAF scaling or not.
If you mean, results don't lie, I agree. However, while acceleration rate doesn't lie, it doesn't tell the whole truth either. In my 2-stroke days, jetting for WOT could give good results only to discover backing off the throttle just a bit resulted in a seizing motor. While holding a constant AFR at WOT seems to be relatively easy, try getting a constant AFR while keeping load constant with partial throttle in "stripes" across the tables at say 20%-30%, 40%-50%, and 60%-70% load. Not so easy, esp without a true brake dyno handy.
Does any of this much matter? Meh, it's a hobby.
If you mean, results don't lie, I agree. However, while acceleration rate doesn't lie, it doesn't tell the whole truth either. In my 2-stroke days, jetting for WOT could give good results only to discover backing off the throttle just a bit resulted in a seizing motor. While holding a constant AFR at WOT seems to be relatively easy, try getting a constant AFR while keeping load constant with partial throttle in "stripes" across the tables at say 20%-30%, 40%-50%, and 60%-70% load. Not so easy, esp without a true brake dyno handy.
Does any of this much matter? Meh, it's a hobby.
11-05-2012 | 11:07 PM
#78
You made yourself the perfect example of why I don't bother to try and explain what I know here
why do I want to argue and convince someone who really doesn't understand the subject, then tries to blow it off as "a hobby"?
Thanks for clarifying that it's a complete waste of my time and effort. Sniping is all you are worthy of.
Done with this thread. Team out ...
.
why do I want to argue and convince someone who really doesn't understand the subject, then tries to blow it off as "a hobby"?
Thanks for clarifying that it's a complete waste of my time and effort. Sniping is all you are worthy of.
Done with this thread. Team out ...
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 11-05-2012 at 11:10 PM.
11-06-2012 | 05:55 AM
#80
You made yourself the perfect example of why I don't bother to try and explain what I know here
why do I want to argue and convince someone who really doesn't understand the subject, then tries to blow it off as "a hobby"?
Thanks for clarifying that it's a complete waste of my time and effort. Sniping is all you are worthy of.
Done with this thread. Team out ...
.
why do I want to argue and convince someone who really doesn't understand the subject, then tries to blow it off as "a hobby"?
Thanks for clarifying that it's a complete waste of my time and effort. Sniping is all you are worthy of.
Done with this thread. Team out ...
.
What you can't seem to get is that I am experimenting, messing around, learning, whatever it is you want to call it. I am not necessarily at this point trying to do it "right", though I would just as soon not do it so wrong as to damage something. I am not claiming to be an expert, nor am I claiming anyone should do what I am doing.
Sniping? defn: "Making sly or petty verbal attack."
How really can you come to that conclusion from this discussion? How in the world would you imagine I'd send a total of $815 to someone without having a considerable measure of respect for them? Or that I'd go "sniping" at them before I got the stuff?
Wow, just wow.
05-06-2013 | 01:55 PM
#81
Registered
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
From: Cali
Simple method:
Take some logs, the technique described in MMs thread is fine. You just need data from idle, cruising, 2nd gear full throttle, and 3rd or 4th full throttle.
Cleaning the MAF is a good idea.
Scaling the MAF table at the low end is the easiest way to eliminate fuel trims. Reducing fuel trims is important, because the long-term fuel trim (LTFT) that is developed under highway cruising conditions in closed-loop will affect full-throttle open-loop fuel delivery.
LTFTs are set over three ranges.
1-9 grams/second
9-20 g/sec
20-200 g/sec
Just select each range, hit m, and multiply the values by the error you are seeing in the log for that range.
For the last range, there is no need to scale the MAF beyond 100g/sec.
Iterate until the trims approach zero.
Adjust the fuel tables for gears 1-2 and 3-4 based on your full-throttle logs.
Iterate until you see the AFR you want. Best power is usually in the mid-13s, it is may be safer to aim for high 12s.
I find a visual log viewer like MegaLogViewer is a much easier way to view logs.
For the OMP, just increase the values in the load-based table.
I can't find it right now, but I have a Mazda research paper in which they measured oil delivery rate vs wall temperature. Temp decreases with increasing oil delivery, and then flat-lines.
In other words, there is an optimal point, but the only problem in going beyond the optimum is increased oil consumption. I have an OMP adapter/tank, and I like the smell of premixy exhaust, so have this table adjusted liberally.
Adjust the coil dwell times.
Done.
Not the way I do it, but I think this method is easy enough, and will probably give 95% of the improvements possible on an NA car.
Take some logs, the technique described in MMs thread is fine. You just need data from idle, cruising, 2nd gear full throttle, and 3rd or 4th full throttle.
Cleaning the MAF is a good idea.
Scaling the MAF table at the low end is the easiest way to eliminate fuel trims. Reducing fuel trims is important, because the long-term fuel trim (LTFT) that is developed under highway cruising conditions in closed-loop will affect full-throttle open-loop fuel delivery.
LTFTs are set over three ranges.
1-9 grams/second
9-20 g/sec
20-200 g/sec
Just select each range, hit m, and multiply the values by the error you are seeing in the log for that range.
For the last range, there is no need to scale the MAF beyond 100g/sec.
Iterate until the trims approach zero.
Adjust the fuel tables for gears 1-2 and 3-4 based on your full-throttle logs.
Iterate until you see the AFR you want. Best power is usually in the mid-13s, it is may be safer to aim for high 12s.
I find a visual log viewer like MegaLogViewer is a much easier way to view logs.
For the OMP, just increase the values in the load-based table.
I can't find it right now, but I have a Mazda research paper in which they measured oil delivery rate vs wall temperature. Temp decreases with increasing oil delivery, and then flat-lines.
In other words, there is an optimal point, but the only problem in going beyond the optimum is increased oil consumption. I have an OMP adapter/tank, and I like the smell of premixy exhaust, so have this table adjusted liberally.
Code:
3.00 3.00 3.00 4.00 5.00 5.00 6.00 7.00 8.00 8.00 9.00 10.00 10.00 11.00 12.00 15.00 19.00 19.00 21.00 5.00 5.00 5.00 6.00 7.00 7.00 8.00 8.00 9.00 10.00 10.00 11.00 12.00 13.00 15.00 18.00 21.00 25.00 29.00 7.00 7.00 7.00 8.00 8.00 9.00 9.00 10.00 11.00 11.00 12.00 13.00 13.00 15.00 17.00 21.00 25.00 30.00 36.00 9.00 9.00 9.00 9.00 10.00 10.00 11.00 11.00 12.00 12.00 13.00 14.00 15.00 17.00 20.00 24.00 29.00 35.00 42.00 11.00 11.00 11.00 11.00 12.00 12.00 12.00 13.00 13.00 14.00 14.00 15.00 17.00 20.00 23.00 28.00 34.00 39.00 45.00 12.00 12.00 13.00 13.00 13.00 13.00 14.00 14.00 15.00 15.00 16.00 17.00 19.00 23.00 27.00 33.00 38.00 42.00 46.00 14.00 14.00 14.00 15.00 15.00 15.00 15.00 16.00 16.00 17.00 17.00 19.00 21.00 25.00 31.00 36.00 41.00 44.00 48.00 16.00 16.00 16.00 16.00 17.00 17.00 17.00 17.00 18.00 18.00 19.00 20.00 23.00 28.00 34.00 39.00 43.00 46.00 49.00 18.00 18.00 18.00 18.00 18.00 18.00 18.00 19.00 19.00 20.00 20.00 21.00 24.00 29.00 35.00 41.00 45.00 48.00 51.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 20.00 21.00 21.00 23.00 26.00 31.00 37.00 42.00 46.00 49.00 53.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 21.00 22.00 23.00 24.00 28.00 32.00 38.00 43.00 47.00 51.00 54.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 23.00 24.00 26.00 30.00 35.00 40.00 45.00 49.00 52.00 56.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 23.00 23.00 24.00 26.00 29.00 33.00 38.00 43.00 47.00 50.00 54.00 57.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 23.00 23.00 24.00 26.00 27.00 30.00 33.00 38.00 42.00 47.00 50.00 53.00 56.00 58.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 23.00 24.00 26.00 28.00 31.00 33.00 36.00 40.00 45.00 50.00 53.00 56.00 58.00 60.00 60.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 22.00 23.00 26.00 30.00 34.00 38.00 41.00 44.00 49.00 54.00 59.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 22.00 21.00 22.00 22.00 23.00 27.00 33.00 37.00 42.00 45.00 49.00 54.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 60.00 60.00
Done.
Not the way I do it, but I think this method is easy enough, and will probably give 95% of the improvements possible on an NA car.
I looked at this post by Oltmann and im trying to get up to speed on it..
What Im trying to do is:
Set Coolant fan point. - I Think I got that
Figure out how to raise Met. oil Pump - (add more oil if possible)
Dwell Settings for my BHR - I got that done..
Adjust AFR My car seems to be running too much gas..
My current set up is N/A
RB header, Intake with duct, TurboXS exhaust, Agency Power Duel res. mid pipe, BHR ignition, pulleys, Aluminum radiator, and Oil pressure reg. upgrade. Access port.
Current map is Stage1 AP off the shelf map.
Dwell Settings adjusted.
radiator fan engagement point adjusted to 85/86/90C
Increased Idol from 800 to 875.
Where I am at this point is trying to do some Data Logs and figure out from the data collected what I can do to adjust the AFR's. I did use the MM method of data logging..
I did
about a 10 sec. Idol log.
4 gear cruse at about 4100 rpm for 30 seconds..
Then I did a WOT pull in 2nd gear and 3rd gear
I thought I would be able to look at the LTFT and STFT in the Access port tuner race program but i don't see them displayed. So At this point I need to be pointed to what aspects should I adjust in the TR program for the fuel trims, and what to base it off of from the data logs i have..
Attached here is a second gear pull at wot log that I did can you see what I have here.. I used MM's criteria and added a few things I wanted to see.. but is there anything I missed?
Thank you greatly for any help.
Last edited by WreakLoosE; 05-06-2013 at 02:07 PM.
05-08-2013 | 05:22 PM
#82
Long Term FT and Short Term FT are displayed. All you provided is a short section of the high rpm end of a WOT run so both of these are displaying zero (indicated as -0.16 on the Cobb device = 0)
05-08-2013 | 07:40 PM
#85
He said that 7 months ago...
Anyways. I have limited knowledge on the subject, so anyone with more knowledge please correct me. I'm pretty sure the LTFT and STFT's are generated and stored on the ECU/PCM side of things. Not the actual map. If I'm not mistaken they are dynamic, and will change over time based on what the various sensors are reading for your Actual AFR.
The goal of what you're trying to do at the beginning is calibrate your MAF and injectors so that you have a very small LTFT and STFT at any given point (I think +/- 5% is what was aimed for). After that's accomplished, then you start looking at changing your AFR's to meet your goals.
I took the tuning webinar Kane put on a while ago, and am still learning all of this stuff. If you do want a run down of the procedure we did for logs, I think I can help. Shoot me a PM
On a side note, when I spoke to Ray/Charles at BHR, he mentioned that it's not necessary to change your dwell times for an NA application of the BHR/D585 coils. I know this is an entire topic unto itself, but it is what I was told.
Again, I'm no expert, so please take anything I say and research it further, as it is not experienced or first-hand knowledge. I am a hobbyist, not a professional mechanic/tuner/car guy.
Anyways. I have limited knowledge on the subject, so anyone with more knowledge please correct me. I'm pretty sure the LTFT and STFT's are generated and stored on the ECU/PCM side of things. Not the actual map. If I'm not mistaken they are dynamic, and will change over time based on what the various sensors are reading for your Actual AFR.
The goal of what you're trying to do at the beginning is calibrate your MAF and injectors so that you have a very small LTFT and STFT at any given point (I think +/- 5% is what was aimed for). After that's accomplished, then you start looking at changing your AFR's to meet your goals.
I took the tuning webinar Kane put on a while ago, and am still learning all of this stuff. If you do want a run down of the procedure we did for logs, I think I can help. Shoot me a PM
On a side note, when I spoke to Ray/Charles at BHR, he mentioned that it's not necessary to change your dwell times for an NA application of the BHR/D585 coils. I know this is an entire topic unto itself, but it is what I was told.
Again, I'm no expert, so please take anything I say and research it further, as it is not experienced or first-hand knowledge. I am a hobbyist, not a professional mechanic/tuner/car guy.
05-08-2013 | 08:27 PM
#86
anybody who believes that OE dwell & D585 coils is a workable solution hasn't tested their output under those conditions
those are the same people that said to use a simple multiplier which has proven to be just as false
unless of course you are using coils sprinkled with majic koolaid dust ...
.
those are the same people that said to use a simple multiplier which has proven to be just as false
unless of course you are using coils sprinkled with majic koolaid dust ...
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 05-09-2013 at 09:41 AM.
05-09-2013 | 09:34 AM
#88
idle is indicating LTFT = 6
cruise is indicating LTFT = 0. It's also showing STFT = 0. This typically means that you didn't start logging immediately upon hitting your target RPM. A proper cruise log with typically show some STFT corrections before timing out and going into open loop, which is when it drops to zero. The LTFT reading is still useful for MAF adjustment purposes though.
cruise is indicating LTFT = 0. It's also showing STFT = 0. This typically means that you didn't start logging immediately upon hitting your target RPM. A proper cruise log with typically show some STFT corrections before timing out and going into open loop, which is when it drops to zero. The LTFT reading is still useful for MAF adjustment purposes though.
05-09-2013 | 10:11 AM
#89
anybody who believes that OE dwell & D585 coils is a workable solution hasn't tested their output under those conditions
those are the same people that said to use a simple multiplier which has proven to be just as false
unless of course you are using coils sprinkled with majic koolaid dust ...
.
those are the same people that said to use a simple multiplier which has proven to be just as false
unless of course you are using coils sprinkled with majic koolaid dust ...
.
It also looks like you've got this handled, and I don't know how much help I could offer in addition to what you can do. Most likely I'll have nothing to contribute, so I'll go back to lurking now.
05-09-2013 | 11:52 AM
#90
Registered
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
From: Cali
idle is indicating LTFT = 6
cruise is indicating LTFT = 0. It's also showing STFT = 0. This typically means that you didn't start logging immediately upon hitting your target RPM. A proper cruise log with typically show some STFT corrections before timing out and going into open loop, which is when it drops to zero. The LTFT reading is still useful for MAF adjustment purposes though.
cruise is indicating LTFT = 0. It's also showing STFT = 0. This typically means that you didn't start logging immediately upon hitting your target RPM. A proper cruise log with typically show some STFT corrections before timing out and going into open loop, which is when it drops to zero. The LTFT reading is still useful for MAF adjustment purposes though.
Team that is right on the money.. When I Started logging the cruise i got it to the target rpm and held for about 10 15 sec. then started logging... Ok I think i see what you are saying.. The STFT is sort of figuring things out at the onset of an rpm range and when that driving style is maintained it goes into an open loop LTFT. does that sound about right?
05-09-2013 | 08:38 PM
#92
You're absolutely right that I haven't tested the coils. I actually wouldn't know how to do it. I asked the question when I bought them, and was told that they were workable. Is it the "best" solution? probably not, but I'll leave that for other people who are smarter than me to discuss.
It also looks like you've got this handled, and I don't know how much help I could offer in addition to what you can do. Most likely I'll have nothing to contribute, so I'll go back to lurking now.
It also looks like you've got this handled, and I don't know how much help I could offer in addition to what you can do. Most likely I'll have nothing to contribute, so I'll go back to lurking now.
don't be silly, my comment has nothing to do with you personally
05-12-2014 | 01:04 PM
#95
Registered
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 85
Likes: 1
From: Norway
I bumping this thread since Im new to tuning.
I got my maf calibration pretty good, with LTFT around 2%.
Now I want to go to next step and adjust my AFR, I want to lean out the AFR curve and get it nice and smooth.
This is my current 2nd gear WOT pull with stock fuel tables. (I did two runs).
It looks jerky and not straight and smooth, the area around 6400-6500rpm seems to be to lean and I guess its because of the Aux port opening at 6250rpm.
How smooth and straigth is it possible to get the AFR curve with a NA rx8?
I want to aim for a ratio around 12-12.5, and I was hoping to be able to get a result more like this edited graph:
I got my maf calibration pretty good, with LTFT around 2%.
Now I want to go to next step and adjust my AFR, I want to lean out the AFR curve and get it nice and smooth.
This is my current 2nd gear WOT pull with stock fuel tables. (I did two runs).
It looks jerky and not straight and smooth, the area around 6400-6500rpm seems to be to lean and I guess its because of the Aux port opening at 6250rpm.
How smooth and straigth is it possible to get the AFR curve with a NA rx8?
I want to aim for a ratio around 12-12.5, and I was hoping to be able to get a result more like this edited graph:
05-12-2014 | 01:17 PM
#96
with alot of work it can almost be done, the SSV, APV and VDI will always have a different kind of bump, but they can be made miniumal,
just play with VE for fine tuneing and the fuel maps to major changes,
I have adjusted my VE to the point where commanded fuel is exact.
I don't think the fuel maps are labeled correctly either
and if you look at the difference from the different versions of atr 04/05 vs 06-08 the maps are backwards.
just play with VE for fine tuneing and the fuel maps to major changes,
I have adjusted my VE to the point where commanded fuel is exact.
I don't think the fuel maps are labeled correctly either
and if you look at the difference from the different versions of atr 04/05 vs 06-08 the maps are backwards.
Last edited by FazdaRX_8; 05-12-2014 at 01:20 PM.
05-12-2014 | 01:53 PM
#98
Registered
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 85
Likes: 1
From: Norway
I have 04 EU Rx8, there isnt a VE table in my version of ATR.
But how do I know for sure which cells to modify in the fuel table to smooth spikes, do I just look at the log for the bad AFR and use the current the calcload and rpm, and change the cell in the fuel table based on that?
Because that would probly not work because of the delay of the AFR readings.
Should I try and fail until I find the right cells or is there a better way?
APV opens at 6250rpm, so if i try to rich the cells in that area I should be able to smooth out the spike right?
But how do I know for sure which cells to modify in the fuel table to smooth spikes, do I just look at the log for the bad AFR and use the current the calcload and rpm, and change the cell in the fuel table based on that?
Because that would probly not work because of the delay of the AFR readings.
Should I try and fail until I find the right cells or is there a better way?
APV opens at 6250rpm, so if i try to rich the cells in that area I should be able to smooth out the spike right?
05-12-2014 | 01:54 PM
#99
in 04/05 ATR the fuel/gear 1-2 is richer, while 3-4 and 5-6 are leaner, but the same
in 06-08 ATR fuel/gear 4-6 is richer, and 1-3 are leaner.
so one of them is mislabeled
but I am thinking a little deeper, like the leaner map is the actual fuel map for 1-6, while the richer one could be a fuel map with knock, or maybe a limp home map.
in 06-08 ATR fuel/gear 4-6 is richer, and 1-3 are leaner.
so one of them is mislabeled
but I am thinking a little deeper, like the leaner map is the actual fuel map for 1-6, while the richer one could be a fuel map with knock, or maybe a limp home map.
05-12-2014 | 02:00 PM
#100
is that the stock fuel map al3k87? I assumed you had the usd version, you have the E version, I don't have that one....
could you post pictures of the other fuel/gear maps?
for apv you anticipate the opening so you add fuel at 6k rpms
look at your log, find the rpms that match, match the loads make a small adjustment, then use highlight the surrounding cells and either hit the "h" key or the "v" key for either horizontal or vertical smoothing.
could you post pictures of the other fuel/gear maps?
for apv you anticipate the opening so you add fuel at 6k rpms
look at your log, find the rpms that match, match the loads make a small adjustment, then use highlight the surrounding cells and either hit the "h" key or the "v" key for either horizontal or vertical smoothing.