359whp
11-14-2008, 09:52 AM
#53
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Your right about the "sh*t part" the coils were acting funny and the dwell was raised. If I may ask how at what settings is the ur coils @?
The tuner's page is http://bdc.cyberosity.com/main.php
Trust me he knows what he is doing!!!! IT's just that the parts were not up to par! Hopefully the second time around siince the tuner drives 12hrs, it will be done right in december.
The tuner's page is http://bdc.cyberosity.com/main.php
Trust me he knows what he is doing!!!! IT's just that the parts were not up to par! Hopefully the second time around siince the tuner drives 12hrs, it will be done right in december.
-Jim
---oh and my dwell is @ 3.50 (from 2.0)
11-14-2008, 10:37 AM
#54
BDC Motorsports
Good deal on the power output figures. It ought to certainly be a fun car.
As far as Suay goes, he's reiterating some of the things I told him a couple months back when I was down in south Texas tuning his car. He uses nearly the same hardware you do. The 'funny feelings' thing he's referring to is what I guessed was a lack of spark energy on the back-end. Turned out I was right. IIRC, the dwell was originally set to 2ms by Scott but then I left it around 3.2ms. Not being familiar with the hardware then, I decided not to experiment with it. If you're using 3.5ms and are not running into any issues with a bouncy tach, overheating coil/ignitor packs, or any other weirdness, then I'll give it a try next time I'm on his car.
I spent several hours on his car. Turns out I made a mistake on how I was staging the secondary bank of injectors. I don't like the way it was setup by Scott at all so I converted the setup from Normal to Matrix mode and then re-created every single RPM fuel curve by hand. I also fixed all of the other maps including the corrections' maps as well as the ignition ones. The car is quite livened up now, idles solidly, and runs much better than it did before the tuning work. The problem he was having had to do with too little dwell on the coil to charge enough spark on the back end.
As far as the boost you're running and why Suay is saying 9-12psi, there's a damn good reason why I tell 'Suay and anyone else with a street-driven car I tune to keep boost low: invariability of quality of fuel. First off, to get this out the way, alot of tune jobs are poor when it comes to the nitty-gritty details. I'm not inferring that it's the case with the job Dave did on your car as I am not familiar with his work, but nonetheless this seems to be a general true-ism. Most every time I do a car, even if it's a professional tuner who's had their hands on it previously, I almost always save what they have, wipe it out off the ECU, then write my own on it. Secondly, keeping boost down is what yields the reliability when using an ultimately poor-quality fuel like the stuff we get at the pump. All of this boils down to cylinder pressure for lack of better terms. Right now Jim, in this colder season especially up in the area of the US you're in, you may be able to get away with running a bar of boost on a 10:1 motor, but in a few to several months, once it warms up outside, out of nowhere and quite mysteriously, the motor may just suddenly blow up. It will shock you. The last thing you'll think of is it being the fault of the tuner. I've seen this happen now going on almost 10 years. Everything else will be blamed -- bad engine build, "bad gas", karma, whatever when in fact it points back to the tuner setting the bar too high for all of the given conditions the car will be driven in. The old stack of rotor housings nearly as tall as I am that I had here points to this truth. It is never ever unwise to err on the side of caution and play it safe primarily due to the fact that doing an engine on a car is a heck of alot of work along with a heck of alot of money. I, as a tuner, will tell every tuning customer I know this very same stuff. Regarding your car, it's your call on how you run it but I would advise caution and turn the wick down a notch or two.
B
11-16-2008, 09:18 PM
#55
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As far as the boost you're running and why Suay is saying 9-12psi, there's a damn good reason why I tell 'Suay and anyone else with a street-driven car I tune to keep boost low: invariability of quality of fuel.
Regarding your car, it's your call on how you run it but I would advise caution and turn the wick down a notch or two.
B
Regarding your car, it's your call on how you run it but I would advise caution and turn the wick down a notch or two.
B
]. That being said it turning it down???no way, I may as well turn the wick off.
11-17-2008, 10:16 AM
#59
BDC Motorsports
Let me flip this around -- If 6, 12, and 15 were the same, then why not turn the boost up to 25lbs? It begs the question: What's the limiter here? It's not the apex seals. It's not the housings nor the rotors. It's not some magic boost figure where all the sudden the engine grenades itself (as far as boost goes, it's not only a generally ambiguous number, it's also not the barometer used to determine the strength of an engine). The engine itself can withstand a hell of alot more than that because it's "cylinder" pressures a far greater than any boost you could try and cram in it. The limiter and key facter here in determining what a safe "cylinder" pressure is to run is the fuel itself, more importantly it's ability to resist knock, it's burn rate, it's output temperature, and it's stability and predictability. Other things like too aggressive tuning and too-hot a spark plug can be problematic but foundationally it boils down to fuel quality. That's the stuff that most nobody looks at. They focus on all of the extremities around it even though it's ultimately the basis for what can and can't be done on the engine since it's the guy that's expected to do all the work. Ever wonder why race fuels exist? It's for those same factors but better: Slower burn (flame-front) rate, higher resiliency to knock, colder burning, more stable burn rate. This isn't about the "bad batch" of gas; it's about the overall quality of what's readily available out there that we're using.
the motor will still blow up, just a split second slower.
I totally understand your reasonings, but disagree with your explanation. and as far as turning the wick down> whats the point of spending all this time, money, and effort, to not use the kit to its potential. So it will only last 5 years instead of 6 years at a higher boost [if were even that lucky ]. That being said it turning it down???no way, I may as well turn the wick off.
]. That being said it turning it down???no way, I may as well turn the wick off.
B
Last edited by BDC; 11-17-2008 at 06:22 PM. Reason: Fixing typos since I can't type
11-17-2008, 10:11 PM
#60
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take that
ka pow! "Jeepers batman I think the joker is back for more!"
Were all good. We are on this forum to learn as well as to converse.
If it means anything Jim I appreciate your time as well as Brian's.
Were all good. We are on this forum to learn as well as to converse.
If it means anything Jim I appreciate your time as well as Brian's.
11-19-2008, 10:44 AM
#61
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No it's not the same because the two different boost levels are producing two different load points. Assuming the same engine RPM, 6lbs of boost produces drastically lower "cylinder" pressures than 15lbs of boost. Even between 12 and 15 there's a fairly substantial difference all things remaining the same.
Let me flip this around -- If 6, 12, and 15 were the same, then why not turn the boost up to 25lbs? It begs the question: What's the limiter here? It's not the apex seals. It's not the housings nor the rotors. It's not some magic boost figure where all the sudden the engine grenades itself (as far as boost goes, it's not only a generally ambiguous number, it's also not the barometer used to determine the strength of an engine). The engine itself can withstand a hell of alot more than that because it's "cylinder" pressures a far greater than any boost you could try and cram in it. The limiter and key facter here in determining what a safe "cylinder" pressure is to run is the fuel itself, more importantly it's ability to resist knock, it's burn rate, it's output temperature, and it's stability and predictability. Other things like too aggressive tuning and too-hot a spark plug can be problematic but foundationally it boils down to fuel quality. That's the stuff that most nobody looks at. They focus on all of the extremities around it even though it's ultimately the basis for what can and can't be done on the engine since it's the guy that's expected to do all the work. Ever wonder why race fuels exist? It's for those same factors but better: Slower burn (flame-front) rate, higher resiliency to knock, colder burning, more stable burn rate. This isn't about the "bad batch" of gas; it's about the overall quality of what's readily available out there that we're using.
That's just not true at all.
It's not about the money and effort spent -- It's about finding the best balance point when combining all of this hardware together and making it work. I'm the tuner guy and it's part of my difficult job: How do I make all of this stuff work reliably that the customer has spent so much money on? Frequently, I have to disappoint people and have them run less than they originally expected, but their stuff doesn't blow up. And, I'm telling you, even though the hardware you've got itself might be capable of more, the problem isn't that -- it's the fuel you're using. If you don't want to agree with me, then that's fine. But, as the Rx8 community as a whole starts goofing with boost and turning it up to this point and beyond, expecting to make ginormous-over-stock power with inferior fuels, then engines will begin popping and dying from all sorts of failures. There will be new stacks of dead Rx8 end-plates and rotor housings at my place. It's just a matter of time.
B
Let me flip this around -- If 6, 12, and 15 were the same, then why not turn the boost up to 25lbs? It begs the question: What's the limiter here? It's not the apex seals. It's not the housings nor the rotors. It's not some magic boost figure where all the sudden the engine grenades itself (as far as boost goes, it's not only a generally ambiguous number, it's also not the barometer used to determine the strength of an engine). The engine itself can withstand a hell of alot more than that because it's "cylinder" pressures a far greater than any boost you could try and cram in it. The limiter and key facter here in determining what a safe "cylinder" pressure is to run is the fuel itself, more importantly it's ability to resist knock, it's burn rate, it's output temperature, and it's stability and predictability. Other things like too aggressive tuning and too-hot a spark plug can be problematic but foundationally it boils down to fuel quality. That's the stuff that most nobody looks at. They focus on all of the extremities around it even though it's ultimately the basis for what can and can't be done on the engine since it's the guy that's expected to do all the work. Ever wonder why race fuels exist? It's for those same factors but better: Slower burn (flame-front) rate, higher resiliency to knock, colder burning, more stable burn rate. This isn't about the "bad batch" of gas; it's about the overall quality of what's readily available out there that we're using.
That's just not true at all.
It's not about the money and effort spent -- It's about finding the best balance point when combining all of this hardware together and making it work. I'm the tuner guy and it's part of my difficult job: How do I make all of this stuff work reliably that the customer has spent so much money on? Frequently, I have to disappoint people and have them run less than they originally expected, but their stuff doesn't blow up. And, I'm telling you, even though the hardware you've got itself might be capable of more, the problem isn't that -- it's the fuel you're using. If you don't want to agree with me, then that's fine. But, as the Rx8 community as a whole starts goofing with boost and turning it up to this point and beyond, expecting to make ginormous-over-stock power with inferior fuels, then engines will begin popping and dying from all sorts of failures. There will be new stacks of dead Rx8 end-plates and rotor housings at my place. It's just a matter of time.
B
Look. I agree with your methods of having conservative tunes. Absolutely. Thats where skill is necessary in achieving the proper tune. BUT if you are Always being conservative and not pushing the vehicle to its limits...then whats the point. If you never blew up a motor in your tuning time (i dont know if you have or have not), then how do you know the vehicle will not dish out more power. If i spent hundreds of dollars on a tune, brought it to you... got 100hp out of it,then brought it to another shop, got another 100hp (exaggerating #s) and the thing runs and drives beautifully, holds up... id probably would not want to return to your shop. NOBODY wants to be blamed for a customers blown engine, i agree.
I wouldn't blame Dave (KDR) if my engine blew when i was heavy on it down the track. Its performance modifications. Maybe im just more understanding being in the business and all. Or maybe you should make a disclaimer and better explain to your customers that these things happen. Im sure if there motor was conservativley tuned to your aspects, ran down the road, blew up at 6psi....you'd still be blamed! whether its NA 6-12-or 15psi.. Murphy's law: If it was meant to blow up, it probably will. As long as everyone and everything is working the way it should (using race gas, not being stupid, etc) then nature will take its course.
_--
Jim
11-19-2008, 10:08 PM
#62
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actually he is correct.
the whole quote was that boosting 6lbs or 15lbs on "bad" gas has the same results just a split second slower. that is just not the case. the bad gas may not cause anything at 6lbs because the pressures and heat dont rise to the level that would cause the pre-ignition or knock. but that same gas at 15lbs will because the pressure and heat is that much greater.
thats exactly why you ran the race gas on the dyno- to give you the safety edge. you eliminated that variable by inserting the constant know fuel quality.
BDC is exactly correct in that the fuel supply at the pump has to be treated as an unknown variable because its quality is just that- extremely variable. any Professional tuner has to take that into account when deciding the safe boost level.
the whole quote was that boosting 6lbs or 15lbs on "bad" gas has the same results just a split second slower. that is just not the case. the bad gas may not cause anything at 6lbs because the pressures and heat dont rise to the level that would cause the pre-ignition or knock. but that same gas at 15lbs will because the pressure and heat is that much greater.
thats exactly why you ran the race gas on the dyno- to give you the safety edge. you eliminated that variable by inserting the constant know fuel quality.
BDC is exactly correct in that the fuel supply at the pump has to be treated as an unknown variable because its quality is just that- extremely variable. any Professional tuner has to take that into account when deciding the safe boost level.
11-20-2008, 07:03 AM
#63
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actually he is correct.
the whole quote was that boosting 6lbs or 15lbs on "bad" gas has the same results just a split second slower. that is just not the case. the bad gas may not cause anything at 6lbs because the pressures and heat dont rise to the level that would cause the pre-ignition or knock. but that same gas at 15lbs will because the pressure and heat is that much greater.
thats exactly why you ran the race gas on the dyno- to give you the safety edge. you eliminated that variable by inserting the constant know fuel quality.
BDC is exactly correct in that the fuel supply at the pump has to be treated as an unknown variable because its quality is just that- extremely variable. any Professional tuner has to take that into account when deciding the safe boost level.
the whole quote was that boosting 6lbs or 15lbs on "bad" gas has the same results just a split second slower. that is just not the case. the bad gas may not cause anything at 6lbs because the pressures and heat dont rise to the level that would cause the pre-ignition or knock. but that same gas at 15lbs will because the pressure and heat is that much greater.
thats exactly why you ran the race gas on the dyno- to give you the safety edge. you eliminated that variable by inserting the constant know fuel quality.
BDC is exactly correct in that the fuel supply at the pump has to be treated as an unknown variable because its quality is just that- extremely variable. any Professional tuner has to take that into account when deciding the safe boost level.
I used 6lbs as a low example. So if now BOTH of you say that inadvertant fuel quality would not be an issue at low boost pressure.....ill go get some gas later @ bobs chicken & gas emporium, set my boost down to 9lbs, go to the track and make some passes. IF MY ENGINE BLOWS due to my POOR QUALITY OF FUEL,, will you repair my motor? Or will the blame by shifted elsewhere.
You know, what i really want to ask to you, Brian, iswhat would You do to my car if you had it @ your shop, with race gas in it...if all is right with the car. Where would you stop. how far would you push before you say enoughs enough..
11-20-2008, 08:01 AM
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That's just not true at all.
Quote:
I totally understand your reasonings, but disagree with your explanation. and as far as turning the wick down> whats the point of spending all this time, money, and effort, to not use the kit to its potential. So it will only last 5 years instead of 6 years at a higher boost [if were even that lucky ]. That being said it turning it down???no way, I may as well turn the wick off.
It's not about the money and effort spent -- It's about finding the best balance point when combining all of this hardware together and making it work. I'm the tuner guy and it's part of my difficult job: How do I make all of this stuff work reliably that the customer has spent so much money on? Frequently, I have to disappoint people and have them run less than they originally expected, but their stuff doesn't blow up. And, I'm telling you, even though the hardware you've got itself might be capable of more, the problem isn't that -- it's the fuel you're using. If you don't want to agree with me, then that's fine. But, as the Rx8 community as a whole starts goofing with boost and turning it up to this point and beyond, expecting to make ginormous-over-stock power with inferior fuels, then engines will begin popping and dying from all sorts of failures. There will be new stacks of dead Rx8 end-plates and rotor housings at my place. It's just a matter of time.
Agree.
Quote:
I totally understand your reasonings, but disagree with your explanation. and as far as turning the wick down> whats the point of spending all this time, money, and effort, to not use the kit to its potential. So it will only last 5 years instead of 6 years at a higher boost [if were even that lucky ]. That being said it turning it down???no way, I may as well turn the wick off.
It's not about the money and effort spent -- It's about finding the best balance point when combining all of this hardware together and making it work. I'm the tuner guy and it's part of my difficult job: How do I make all of this stuff work reliably that the customer has spent so much money on? Frequently, I have to disappoint people and have them run less than they originally expected, but their stuff doesn't blow up. And, I'm telling you, even though the hardware you've got itself might be capable of more, the problem isn't that -- it's the fuel you're using. If you don't want to agree with me, then that's fine. But, as the Rx8 community as a whole starts goofing with boost and turning it up to this point and beyond, expecting to make ginormous-over-stock power with inferior fuels, then engines will begin popping and dying from all sorts of failures. There will be new stacks of dead Rx8 end-plates and rotor housings at my place. It's just a matter of time.
Agree.
11-20-2008, 10:29 AM
#66
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I used 6lbs as a low example. So if now BOTH of you say that inadvertant fuel quality would not be an issue at low boost pressure.....ill go get some gas later @ bobs chicken & gas emporium, set my boost down to 9lbs, go to the track and make some passes. IF MY ENGINE BLOWS due to my POOR QUALITY OF FUEL,, will you repair my motor? Or will the blame by shifted elsewhere.
Anyway, congrats on having a fast 8... I hope it lasts
11-20-2008, 10:44 AM
#67
BDC Motorsports
I used 6lbs as a low example. So if now BOTH of you say that inadvertant fuel quality would not be an issue at low boost pressure.....ill go get some gas later @ bobs chicken & gas emporium, set my boost down to 9lbs, go to the track and make some passes. IF MY ENGINE BLOWS due to my POOR QUALITY OF FUEL,, will you repair my motor? Or will the blame by shifted elsewhere.
If that scenario actually happened on your car, I'd definitely consider the fuel you're using (who knows where Bob gets his gas from!) unless further research on the car shows it was something else goofy (injector failure, pump failure or back-end problem, too hot a spark plug, trigger noise or trigger input problem, etc.) While it's not fair IMO to use the inadvertent excuse of "bad gas" to dismiss the cause of a problem, it certainly is a possibility and for the reasons of quality that myself and Charlie mentioned. There are definite and unreliable differences between the various brands and places. Car runs great on Shell 93, car blows up on Bob's Chicken & Gas Emporium "93" inexplicably.
You know, what i really want to ask to you, Brian, iswhat would You do to my car if you had it @ your shop, with race gas in it...if all is right with the car. Where would you stop. how far would you push before you say enoughs enough..
B
01-12-2009, 11:37 PM
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01-15-2009, 04:43 PM
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wow, i dunno what suay is talking about but i am gld this got bumped was entertaining reading this again and seeing that guy keep telling everyone "no, you're wrong - i dont know why, but you're wrong and i'm right" ROFL
was entertaining reading this again and seeing that guy keep telling everyone "no, you're wrong - i dont know why, but you're wrong and i'm right" ROFL
