TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Oh come on, you're being a bit too dramatic. I shift quick and and don't hold back on the throttle application, but if I had a dog box I wouldn't be using the clutch or lifting off the throttle. So there's a substantial difference, plus I've owned and competed in a wide variety of other brand/model vehicles without ever having any clutch or transmission issues. I broke my first RX-8 transmission on my very first shift into 2nd gear at it's very first event at 4600 feet elevation on a near factory stock 6 port engine just after it was broken in.

Like I said, push it hard and it will break and it's only bulletproof reliable for 100 rwhp and grippy tires IMO. That doesn't mean it won't survive if you're gentle with it. It just means it won't hold up to any demanding use at the stock power level, let alone juiced up. The road race guys eat them up too, so it's not just the drag type 2nd gear shift that does them in. It damn sure will with serious power levels though.

outinnowhere3193

iTrader: (2)

Like it said you'll offer it at a last second to someone willing to come down but not to everyting....and by saying this 500whp is your own car not trying to boost sales. Everyone knows they go with the best kit and the one that offers the most. So if your offering a turbo and set-up that's able to push 500 I'm going to buy it over the one that gets just 300. See when you start talking and showing such high numbers that are ridiculous then people question. Hell when I built my car and posted I claimed 400whp and I got called bull **** so for your to tell me 500 I still yell bull **** cause I push my car pretty damn hard...and it's hard to believe a engine that has 10 to 1 compression your not pushing 19psi without any problems? I just wanted to make sure I mean I've hit 16 psi..but you can listen to your engine and frankly when I boost 16 my engine really sounds like it's giving all it's got.... I'm afraid to turn it up higher. But then again if you are running 19 when I'm running my 14's that's 5psi and I know how big a difference there is between 5 psi...but daily driving maybe but to boost that hard in higher gears...I don't think so. But first in second you could get away with pushing it that hard. But third and fourth those gears are pretty long.. I don't know about that.

J8635621

iTrader: (10)

There is so much wrong with what you just posted.
1. PSI isn't comparable between different sized turbos.
2. You would base your purchase off max hp of a car barely like your own?
3. Your car sounds like it's giving all it's got........that's the way to figure it out lol.

Symbioticgenius

outinnowhere... the name suits you...
There are these things, they are called supporting mods. He has them, you dont. Nuff said. He even has a bigger turbo.
The Kit he sells is dyno'ed at 414, and that is with Issues. His personal vehicle is stated at a bit higher power, but its not a kit he sells, so It doesn't really matter if he ever posts anything, cause most of us won't have what he does on their car.
Lastly, for his car to Dyno 414 with issues, then have a UIM Change, Ethanol with full fuel return, larger injectors to support this and 4 more PSI, I'm shocked he's not claiming closer to 600, cause by my estimation, he should be between mid 500's and 600.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I think that is Chris's cunning plan . Tell us all he is aiming for 500 then kablamo !!! shock us all with a 600whp dyno . I like that plan

blackenedwings

If you want a laugh, look up some of outinnowhere's other posts. The last post here was bordering on intelligent by his standards.

With a custom UIM, E85, aftermarket apex seals, pinned/ported motor, and 19 lbs with a turbo the size of your head I won't be that surprised to see a ~600 whp dyno by Esmeril. That being said, I wouldn't use the dyno results as the determining factor on which turbo kit to buy. I think its great that Chris is pushing the limits of the car, and I'm rooting for him to keep doing so, but I still haven't forgotten the Chinese knockoff turbo in the base Esmeril kit.

Symbioticgenius

That turbo can be replaced, and I believe Chris offers a replacement for it. Initially I had more issues with the Wastegate locale, but that problem was alleviated as well.
All systems start off with problems, but I'm pleased to see a smaller company like Esmeril fixing theirs, while a corporation like Greddy has done nothing to theirs. Good Job Esmeril.

blackenedwings

Its certainly true the kit has upgraded over its lifetime and the wastegate issue was resolved as well as another turbo being offered optionally with the kit, the fact that the junk turbo is offered as a default part of the kit (without the manufacturer being named) despite causing multiple customers blown motors is a source of concern to me. I don't understand why the eBay turbo is still part of this kit despite all of the known issues. Granted GReddy sold a bunch of crap in their kit too, but I didn't exactly buy a stock GReddy turbo kit either. I'm only using a couple of cheap pipes and the manifold from their kit personally.

Anyway, not trying to derail this thread or hate on Chris... I continue to look forward to further improvements with the Esmeril kit, and to new dynos showing all the work Chris has done with his car.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

When used as shipped, the GReddy kit is nearly bullet-proof and fairly robust.

I do not know a single person that has installed that kit as it ships and left it alone.

blackenedwings

Well, that's true too. I guess it does boil down a lot to what is advertised as acceptable for the kit and what you actually do with it. Nobody with the GReddy kit is happy with 250 whp. The fact is though that Esmeril advertises the kit as a 400 whp "out of the box" kit with a turbo essentially pieced together from scrapyard leavings. Look at the compressor wheel in the Overlords thread several pages back where the thing just fell apart and flung bits of metal through the guys car for an example.

outinnowhere3193

iTrader: (2)

I know I don't know everything...hell there is a lot I don't know...and yes most of the time I got so much **** going on...I'll post something without even thinking..but I don't care.. But let me get this straight your telling me if you have a motor with the same size intake whole...and you both have 3 inch intake and are both boosting to 14psi...then a bigger turbo then mine actually pushes more air? Now I understand if my turbo tops out at say 14 psi...there for I'd be making it out...the bigger one would be more efficient at flowing that air. But all in all it's still the same amount of air. When sizes of piping or ports don't change and you have the same PSI you in the end will end up the same. Now I can see how charge temps can alter things. It's like a 40 gallon air compressor and a 120 gallon compressor...when they are both at 90 PSI they still flow the same amount of air outta the 1/2 inch line. The bigger one will just maintain and keep that air longer.

Like I said I don't know everything I didn't go to school for this ****.. I learn as I go... I work for a living and don't have time to research or go to school. You guys can carry on all you want. I just don't understand how there is that much difference. My motor is built by cam from pettit racing and they ported my motor. Only thing I didn't get was the extra dowl pins and we talked about a bridge port...but from my understanding that's pretty much pointless cause it would be extremely small and a huge risk...that it didn't weigh out.

outinnowhere3193

iTrader: (2)

oh and as far as those apex seals they offer.. I thought they was just suppose to be stronger... and be able to hold more boost...so that doesn't really up power...just gives it the ability to hold up to more. So seals don't change anything really.

outinnowhere3193

iTrader: (2)

I guess I'm just gonna have to get on the dyno now.

Symbioticgenius

Theres two ways I want to say this.
Nice way: I'd be willing to bet your making more power than you think.
Not so nice: Find out how much power you're making before you question what someone else is.

Choose one.

blackenedwings

Considering the other modifications Chris has, look at the primary areas of concern pushing 500+ whp... running E85 cuts his chance of detonation down astronomically (lots of pro teams are running E85 now), while the stronger apex seals provide even more protection. The pinning is going to increase the strength of the housing to support the power he is putting through it. He has a custom UIM, a Stage 2 or higher clutch and large enough tires to put the power down. The only thing on his setup that I'm amazed hasn't shattered is the transmission. The transmission would probably break in a second if the car were taken aggressively on the track, but its a street car and is driven more smoothly and carefully than any track car would be.

The side ports are probably causing all sorts of excess heat at those pressures, but with the charge cooling he has going on, I don't see it being insurmountable at this power level. If Chris keeps upgrading all the other areas of the car the exhaust port location might be the stopping factor for the car at some point, but the modifications exist to take an RX-8 to ~900 whp, it just hasn't been done with a Renesis. I also don't believe that kind of power is achievable with the Renesis because of the engine design, but I'm certainly not an expert.

I plan to sit on the sidelines and cheer, because I'm pretty fond of the Renesis and its nice to see the engine is capable of more than most give it credit for.

cliffkemp

Why does the graph show so little tq at 3300 rpms. My NA car has more tq than this one.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I don't think so.
I watched quite a few RX-8s go out there and post really great times without all the abrupt banging, crunching and lurching.
I talked with several of those guys and quite a few of the very competitive folks have never broken a tranny.

On your first run, your shift into second sounded like someone threw a brick at your car. The unsettling of the chassis was startling.
I'm not going to go into the affect on your times for that event (obviously, you were having issues), but even standing on the top of the "hill", late in your run, you were still banging the crap out of the thing.

I'm not nearly as competitive as you are in Auto-X (though my times were pretty decent for a first-timer in SD), but I am putting twice the power and torque down that you are in a daily-driven vehicle that not only places at the top of my SM/ST2 group here in Phoenix but sees constant track use and I've never broken a tranny. I've never even had one go notchy on me. At least not past the point that a fluid change didn't fix it.

You are doing something extraordinary to your tranny.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I don't think you are to far off the mark .
There will definately be a difference between a small turbo and a big one at the same psi because the big one will be compressing the air more efficiently so the air is cooler . This equates to more mass air flow and therefore more power .
However , I don't think the difference is as much as some others around here seem to think it is .
A lot of the issue is that most people think when someone says "i'm boosting at 14psi" it means that they have 14psi all the way to the redline . Almost without exception this is not the case as boost drops off at high rpm . With a Bigger turbo it is certainly a lot easier to achieve that (all the way to the redline) and so the numbers for a larger turbo can look much more impressive even though two people are saying they are at the same psi .
This is another reason it is so important to look at the whole dyno chart to see relative performance - not just the peak .

cliffkemp

Brettus is correct. Using a smaller turbo will give you the boost faster but, it will not be as efficient on top end. The larger turbo will take a little longer to spool but, will give you more top end as it will not give out. This is the reason the 135 and 335 have a tt setup. The larger turbo will actually give you more top end hp due to it being more efficient on top end especially with the rotary engine. This is why, as Brettus says, looking at the whole curve is so important.

cliffkemp

Correct me if I am wrong but, you are trying to say that 14psi yields more hp for a big turbo compared to a smaller one due to the larger one being able to supply the boost in the higher rpms where more 'work' therefore, hp is/is done? I believe this is what you are trying to say if that clears anything up for anyone else reading this.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Well - I would not put it that way .

There are lots of things that come into play - one of them being the larger turbo is more efficient at the same PSI because it does not heat the air up as much and therefore supplies more mass air flow even though psi is the same .
Another is that people often SAY they have x PSI but they only have it to a certain point after which it drops away . So they may only actually have say 11psi at peak vs 14 psi at peak for the larger turbo .

cliffkemp

That is what I was saying for the most part. I got the gist of what you were saying. 14psi at 3k is not the same 14psi at 6k due to the difference in heat. My old talon had 14 peak but 11 sustained, for the very reason that you stated with the turbo falling off on top end due to being small. There are a variety of variables that come into play as well.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

A certain person on here is so **** about refering to flow rather than boost - so it pays to clarify LOL

cliffkemp

I hear you there. I get accused of all kinds of stuff. I feel like I have to explain in detail every little thing so that no one takes what I say out of context just to use against me. So petty. What do you think about my comment on the dyno? is the tq lower due to the turbo temporarily blocking a little flow while spooling? Just asking. My dyno shows my NA 8 at about 3200-3300 at 120 ft*lbs where as the one above with 414 hp shows just under 100 at the same rpms. I am just curious about that. I have not seen that on other systems or I just didnt notice it one.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I would put it down to the aux ports being open all the time - Chris did mention he does this . Makes a big difference down low . Personally I would not like to have a car with a power band like that shown - just not a practical daily driver IMO