alcohol/meth injection?
05-07-2007, 08:45 AM
#1
Bubblicious? DEF.
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alcohol/meth injection?
First off I'm a noob with this but my friend just added the alcohol injection in his evo and got some pretty impressive gains... is this do able for the 8 with a turbo? Can some one explain how this works?
05-07-2007, 08:57 AM
#3
clutch burner
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05-07-2007, 09:24 AM
#4
05-07-2007, 09:39 AM
#5
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Why is he a dumbass for running alcohol/water injection on the street? It is done all the time in other car communities. Not only does it have a cooling effect but it is like running on 100+ octane. Ive seen guys pick up 100 horsepower from meth/water injection kit by running additional timing. How does that make someone a dumbass? People could say your a dumbass for paying $300 bucks for a K&N air filter with some prebent aluminum tubing and clamps only to gain 1 hp and potential driveability problems.
Lil Benny - think of when your outside in 90 degree weather and sombody kits you with one of those fan sprayers and it instanly give you the chills. Now imagine that on a much larger scale only the temperature being 200 degree's. That huge drop in temp throughout your piping and motor will help the motor resist knock. On top of that the methanol mixes with your fuel and boosts the octance rating above 100. And addition to that the added fuel will fatten up your A/F ratio. All of these processes allow you to setup a more aggressive tune and therefore pick up more power.
Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 05-07-2007 at 09:48 AM.
05-07-2007, 10:41 AM
#6
Alcohol injection is a multi-phased idea. Some of the Rx-7 guys, as posted earlier, run it as a supplemental fuel to stay rich while upping octane and not destroying the fuel system. It is less precise than true fuel injection, but works. In the case of an Rx-8, you'd probably be running it purely for charge cooling. At that point, you can use methanol or water, or a mix. The evaporation of a liquid soaks heat out of the charge, leads to higher charge density, and results in more air mass to burn more gas.
Depending on your IATs, it may or may not be a real benefit. If you were running 20+ psi as you'll see in some rx-7s and almost all evo's, there might be a lot of heat to work with. Your greddy, if you are above the out-of-the-box boost level, is probably adding a bit of heat. The downside is, as you cool the charge, you will shrink it's volume. This can lead to less PSI at the ports or more CFMs demanded of the Greddy. You'll flow more air mass, but I'm not sure how much gains you'll net. In general, I think most use alchy injection to stretch the output of their set up.
Depending on your IATs, it may or may not be a real benefit. If you were running 20+ psi as you'll see in some rx-7s and almost all evo's, there might be a lot of heat to work with. Your greddy, if you are above the out-of-the-box boost level, is probably adding a bit of heat. The downside is, as you cool the charge, you will shrink it's volume. This can lead to less PSI at the ports or more CFMs demanded of the Greddy. You'll flow more air mass, but I'm not sure how much gains you'll net. In general, I think most use alchy injection to stretch the output of their set up.
05-09-2007, 11:24 AM
#9
Why is he a dumbass for running alcohol/water injection on the street? It is done all the time in other car communities. Not only does it have a cooling effect but it is like running on 100+ octane. Ive seen guys pick up 100 horsepower from meth/water injection kit by running additional timing. How does that make someone a dumbass? People could say your a dumbass for paying $300 bucks for a K&N air filter with some prebent aluminum tubing and clamps only to gain 1 hp and potential driveability problems.
Call me weird, but thats what I think.
For this car, name some bolt ons that can give you significant increase and their price.
I think I got couple more hp on the top end than stock, never been to a dyno, actually Im trying to find one.
got it for a year something, ZERO problems. where did your "potential driveability problems." came from ?
Too bad.
Last edited by nycgps; 05-09-2007 at 11:26 AM.
05-09-2007, 12:52 PM
#10
[QUOTE=nycgps;1869632]because I think people should save those for Race track only. running it on the streets is totally inconsiderate. I think
QUOTE]
I don't know if "inconsiderate" was the word you were looking for. In general, it can be overkill/unnecessary. It depends on the temps you are looking at. Running alchy/mix/water injection for charge cooling and running it as supplemental fuel are two different concepts.
I think it's an interesting setup and I might try it some day just to have some experience working with it, but gains would be better found with resizing the turbo you are using to put less heat into the charge and a more effective intercooling setup.
QUOTE]
I don't know if "inconsiderate" was the word you were looking for. In general, it can be overkill/unnecessary. It depends on the temps you are looking at. Running alchy/mix/water injection for charge cooling and running it as supplemental fuel are two different concepts.
I think it's an interesting setup and I might try it some day just to have some experience working with it, but gains would be better found with resizing the turbo you are using to put less heat into the charge and a more effective intercooling setup.
05-11-2007, 07:21 AM
#11
Boost Junkie
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I am considering running it in high boost mode only. So set it to kick in at 10psi, but keep my boost controller at 9psi most of the time. Then whenever I change the boost map on my boost controller, and go to 10psi or higher, I have a little bit of insurance.
05-12-2007, 01:04 PM
#12
Registered
OK be nice people.
Alcohol injection, water injection, turbocharging, supercharing, nitrous, etc all have their place and uses. None of them is necessarily a bad idea.
My friend Brian Cain is probably the rotary pro when it comes to methanol injection. He uses it on the street. My personal opinion is that there is no need for it on a street car as you can hit 400 hp without it. That's plenty. He has been pushing the limits of what he can do. If someone is only adding methanol injection to gain power, they didn't really do their mods in an order that they should have. You really only want to use it when you've reached the limits of what pump gas can do on boost. Carrying around methanol isn't necessarily the most convenient thing to do. It's highly corrosive so you really need to design your system to work with it. It is also very hygroscopic which means it will absorb moisture from the air and then mix very well with it. It does work very well though.
If I were to use it on the street, I would set it up as slavearm suggests, running it only above a certain boost level. I would also set it up with a fail safe mode to it where high boost would kick down if the methanol runs out. There is a way to do this. That way you can't pop your engine from running out. This is really the only way to do it.
Alcohol injection, water injection, turbocharging, supercharing, nitrous, etc all have their place and uses. None of them is necessarily a bad idea.
My friend Brian Cain is probably the rotary pro when it comes to methanol injection. He uses it on the street. My personal opinion is that there is no need for it on a street car as you can hit 400 hp without it. That's plenty. He has been pushing the limits of what he can do. If someone is only adding methanol injection to gain power, they didn't really do their mods in an order that they should have. You really only want to use it when you've reached the limits of what pump gas can do on boost. Carrying around methanol isn't necessarily the most convenient thing to do. It's highly corrosive so you really need to design your system to work with it. It is also very hygroscopic which means it will absorb moisture from the air and then mix very well with it. It does work very well though.
If I were to use it on the street, I would set it up as slavearm suggests, running it only above a certain boost level. I would also set it up with a fail safe mode to it where high boost would kick down if the methanol runs out. There is a way to do this. That way you can't pop your engine from running out. This is really the only way to do it.
09-20-2007, 02:09 PM
#16
BDC Motorsports
I have some history now with alcohol. Started it last year in July when I purchased my system from http://www.alkycontrol.com -- Nearly $700 and is robust enough and reliable enough to act like a secondary fuel system. No nylon tubes, no fusible links, no junk that you wouldn't otherwise use in your standard system. Full, stainless-steel braided, teflon-cored hoses, all brass compression fittings, alcohol-safe fuel cell, and stainless-steel w/ bronze filter element tank breather. No junk!
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/ProjectC...C/AlkyControl/
If you guys want to read more about the power of alcohol, take a peek at my blog thread starting from about Sept last year:
http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=50682
B
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/ProjectC...C/AlkyControl/
If you guys want to read more about the power of alcohol, take a peek at my blog thread starting from about Sept last year:
http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=50682
B
09-20-2007, 02:21 PM
#17
BDC Motorsports
The type of alcohol typically used for injection is methyl alcohol (methanol; wood grain alcohol). In terms of alcohol injection, there's two ways this is usually practically applied to a vehicle -- Alcohol is injected at a small rate as a chamber coolant to try and bring IAT (intake air temperatures) down so that a target boost can be run while enabling more engine durability and reliability. This is what I call the minimal approach. The second method, like what I employ and what I advocate, is to employ it as a gross fuel replacement, say something along the lines of replacing as much as 30-35% of your fuel while under load. The system I use is built specifically for this. While driving in vacuum and whilst not in load, 100% gasoline is used. Once the car begins to see a bit of manifold pressure (say, 5 or 6 psi of boost), then the system trickles on and ramps up as load increases. The target ratio of 70/30 (70% gasoline to 30% methanol) is achieved by 15psi and then remains constant thereafter. The practical effect is that the effective octane rating or fuel's ability to resist knock increases as load increases. It'd be like your fuel magically turning from 93 octane pump gas into 110 octane race fuel the harder you run it. Not only does the fuel become substantially more resilient and stable as boost rises, it also acts as a chemical intercooler, dropping the IAT's down to below ambient temperatures, even in a summer day.
This is all perfectly streetable stuff as it's intended for street use and is also intended to be another alternative (a better one, IMO) to steer away from having to run expensive race fuels on the street for a high boosted application.
Hope that helps,
B
09-20-2007, 07:45 PM
#18
Dongbag extrordinare
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Check this website out. www.snowperformance.net
09-20-2007, 08:10 PM
#19
damn that alchycontrol place is in my backyard... looks like i will have to swing by that place... looks like i could add a few of there products and integrate them into my current system
09-20-2007, 09:59 PM
#20
BDC Motorsports
09-21-2007, 01:02 PM
#22
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While I'm new to the RX-8 community, I used water/methanol injection on my Mazdaspeed Protege for a while. It was super cheap, around $200 I think from aquastealth.com. I used windshield washer fluid for the mix- its 50/50 water/meth with some minor additives that research has proven safe. So, it was 88 cents per gallon at WalMart.
What did I think of it? Fantastic. It was like having an additional intercooler. I was able to run considerably higher boost without detonation, and the quarter mile times plummeted. I ran a baseline of 15.3 in the car, upped the boost to 10 psi from the stock 7(no water/meth injection), and ran something like a 14.8 or 14.9. Well, I upped the boost to 14 psi and installed a catback, added the mixture starting at 5 psi, and I ran a best 14.1, and the thing pulled like crazy. In those cars the catback without a cat helped alot too though.
Not too shabby for $200 bucks. I found myself using about 2 gallons a week in normal driving.
Its important to note that the 50/50 mix doesn't create more power. It really does act just like an intercooler- it significantly cools the intake charge.
Note: I can't remember all of my times, just that I ran a best of 14.1 at 14 psi with the methanol injection and downpipe-back exhaust.
What did I think of it? Fantastic. It was like having an additional intercooler. I was able to run considerably higher boost without detonation, and the quarter mile times plummeted. I ran a baseline of 15.3 in the car, upped the boost to 10 psi from the stock 7(no water/meth injection), and ran something like a 14.8 or 14.9. Well, I upped the boost to 14 psi and installed a catback, added the mixture starting at 5 psi, and I ran a best 14.1, and the thing pulled like crazy. In those cars the catback without a cat helped alot too though.
Not too shabby for $200 bucks. I found myself using about 2 gallons a week in normal driving.
Its important to note that the 50/50 mix doesn't create more power. It really does act just like an intercooler- it significantly cools the intake charge.
Note: I can't remember all of my times, just that I ran a best of 14.1 at 14 psi with the methanol injection and downpipe-back exhaust.
Last edited by Riles; 09-21-2007 at 01:15 PM.
09-30-2007, 03:08 PM
#25
Northeast Pimpin'
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its funny you would mention that because i was thinking about meth injection all weekend as a method of cooling incoming air temps.
Charles, why wouldnt people use the nitrous cooling bars, wouldnt this be a a more universal way of cooling air temps.?
Charles, why wouldnt people use the nitrous cooling bars, wouldnt this be a a more universal way of cooling air temps.?