TrochoidMagic

NYCGPS: please correct your signature. you have it backwards, and its not really friendly to me. rather insulting if you ask. think about it...mechanics are those backyard guys that can change anything mechanical for you. while technicians will have some equal mechanical knowledge and have some sort of certification(vocational training/ a.s.e. certs, etc.) and will likely be ones to buy more diagnostic tools to work more on the technical side as well as mechanical side of a vehicle.

or if your signature is just for laughs, i guess i have a bad sense of humor...in that case, i can really give a shi*sh

TrochoidMagic

so methanol or alcohol is an element that works like nitrous except the fact being that it has similar cooling qualities with the only fact that alco/meth injection is actually combustable fuel...right?
so we're on the same pg. i think this is much more safer tuning to toy with. as far as jetting size, etc.

can someone clarify what i believe that this doesn't have detonation qualities such as of nitrous systems? being nitrous introduces denser cooler air volume.

TrochoidMagic

C.R.H., thanks for the clarification. i understand and excuse my comment. its totally understandable from his stanpoint as these rotary engines are so unique, and it only takes rotary specialist to really know how to fix rotaries. the surprising fact is that any tech, any will be stomped when facing with the uniqueness of rotary design as they are different than conventional engines on a much larger scale.

morkusyambo

Something else to consider is the politics of a car dealership. I used to work at a Porsche/Audi dealership as the Audi service rep. The Porsche techs could and did perform mechanical repairs if that was a viable solution to just purchasing new parts. However, only a couple of the Audi techs were capable of "repairing" as opposed to replacing. But that did not matter as they were encouraged by the service manager to allways recommend purchasing new replacement parts.

VarneyMazda

they encourage buying of new parts to make money, if you can patch something together and make it work and only have 1/2 hour labor in it, or you can replace the whole part and spend an hour what would you want to do as a service manager that makes 15-20% of gross service/parts revenue?


what some people dont understand is that dealerships make their money off servicing your vehicle after the sale.

VarneyMazda

Charles, whats the ETA on this meth injection.. id be really interested in knowing.

rotarygod

You know the best person to talk to on the subject Ray.

morkusyambo

This is gonna be great. Who will be the first SC'ed car to try this??

vIce^gRip

I understand that concept. That is why, I let my local dealer do some oil changes, inspections and other small beans. To reciprocate, the favors... I also carry my Service Rep and Service Manager a dozen of Krispy Kreme Donuts from time to time too, even just stop by out of the blue with some donuts just to keep in touch.

Riles

I don't understand- why wait for a new kit? You can currently buy alcohol/methanol/water injection kits for $179 brand new, with boost sensors, solenoid valves, and all wiring. What are they going to put in a kit that people are waiting for?

You can also get TPS switches, MAF triggered switches, and other goodies for very little $$$. Please enlighten me if I'm wrong, but I can't see where any more value can be added, unless the price can drop.

vIce^gRip

I was wanting to speak with Ray this month about something directly on these lines... Go figure!
I was looking at maybe the CO2 Intercooler Sprayer Kit.

Riles

I really think I am missing something here. Is this new kit going to be any different than these:

Aquastealth Kit
Snow Performance Kit
Engine Runup
Joe's Water Injection
Modern Performance

Those were just the first 5 I found on google. You'll notice that they all use the exact same pump, just with a sticker for their company on it (although there does appear to be a 100 psi and a 150 psi version). They also all use the same boost switches, similar hoses, and some share the same nozzle. The only differences are price and features. Some kits are dual stage, which really only means two more nozzles, switches, and a few fittings.

It just seems like the market is plenty full of these kits.

rotarygod

Just a thought, but an application specific kit that offered 2 nozzles with a common plenum would be nice. One nozzle for each rotor. That way you aren't putting all of your faith in the hopes that water will evenly distrubute itself between each rotor with a single nozzle places farther away. Perhaps a kit and instructions that show hot to install each nozzle in the plastic upper manifold? Just a thought.

Alot of what makes a kit worthwhile isn't the fact that the parts are already available from other companies. It's making them specific to your application and as complete, detailed, and trouble free as possible. I'm sure if Ray is thinking about doing this, it'll be something along these lines. You can bet he'll build a system, test it, and then write something detailed before he ever just sells a conglomerate of parts. Much of what makes a product worthwhile is who sells it and what they do that helps the end user. Is it the be all end all for everyone? Nope. Then again there are some that just want to look at detailed instruction, bolt it on and go with as little fanfare as possible.

In the end he'll decide whther it's a worthwhile thing to pursue or not. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't.

BDC

Sure, if you want to buy junk that uses fusible links and nylon tubes. There's a very good reason why the best system to use, IMO, is near $700.

I think it's mainly in quality of build and materials. The frightening thing about this is that this is a fuel that's travelling a good distance to be then atomized into the intake charge. Fuel is dangerous. It therefore demands, I would say, that we use high-quality materials to do this; stuff that transcends the typical DIY'er at Home Depot. Why on Earth would we skimp on this? No EFI system uses junk parts or nylon tubes. At the very least, they use high-pressure fuel hoses, steel banjo fittings and spring clamps. Even after being sifted through the bean-counters prior to the manufacturing plant, there's a measure of long-term reliability and stoutness as it were in factory EFI systems. Why wish to attain a lesser goal when adding a second type of fuel system?

B

BDC

I wrote an article about this on the evil forum Fred even though it was in a thread full of mud-slinging that was shortly nuked thereafter. It's a shame because I spent a good chunk of time on it.

In short, the plenum is the accumulator. All of these efforts by systems to run accumulators (to presumably remove pre-existing system pressure pulses) and this other nonsense is just that -- nonsense. There's therefore no need to nozzle-ize a specific runner for alleged "equal distribution". Introduce your alcohol prior to the throttle body. Alcohol travels through the body, enters the manifold, splits up into respective runners, and travels through the intake port to the combustion chamber. The magic bullet -- Reversion. Reversion from the rotor passing over the intake port slams the door shut to the combustion chamber (and I know you know this Fred but others here may not be familiar with this), creating that wave that travels backwards to a common point -- the plenum. Proof of this: Look at the carbon build up on the intake runners as well as the backside of the throttle body. When I took my engine apart a few months back, I saw some amazing stuff: My rotors were not only nearly 100% free of carbon, the intake runners had these streaks that were clean of carbon, the entire inside of the upper manifold was carbon-free, and the back of the throttle body (which normally has loads of carbon build-up on the backside of the butterflies) was carbon-free. Pictures below to see what I'm talkin' about:

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/ProjectC...bly/?g2_page=1

That's if you wish to re-invent the entire wheel, and my vote is there's no reason to shy of the business interest to produce a product and draw a profit (which I'm not arguing against!)

B

rotarygod

I wasn't thinking of a plenum to control pulsations. It was really more along the lines of a fuel rail type of setup. As long as it all goes where it needs to with one nozzle, then all is well. Apparently it does.

BDC

As best as I could tell, you were aiming at how to distribute alcohol (or whatever) to each chamber equally. I brought up the reversion issue as well as my experience therein to demonstrate that it's a non-issue, notwithstanding having a majorly goofed manifold design.

B

Riles

I've read the responses to my posts, and I can see that we are definitely on different pages. I was describing the system used for cooling purposes only. Nothing flammable. I used a 50/50 mix of methanol and water (aka winshield wiper fluid) in my setup simply to cool the intake charge. If you look at your stock windshield washer reservoir and tubing, you'll see that the aftermarket injection kits are actually of a higher quality (meth safe, high pressure hoses and fittings).

You have to remember that the company who manufactures all of the pumps, Shurflo, has gone through years of testing and expertise to produce a great pump. Just because no-name companies buy them and package them with other parts doesn't decrease the quality of those parts.

As for the nylon hose- it has been tested to be safe with methanol and be able to withstand the high pressures associated with these systems. I'm not sure how that can be considered "skimping". The same holds true for the brass fittings- I would rather a brass fitting over some of the flimsy plastic pieces I've seen in OEM fuel injector retention designs.

The only other parts to the system are the hobbs switches, which are another industry standard, and the nozzles, which are really the only pieces that the companies change, although they are all pretty similar as well.

So, in short, just because a no-name company packages parts from different places, doesn't necessarily indicate that the parts themselves are junk. There are so few pieces to a water/alc/meth kit that it would be hard to really skimp on anything. The pump, hose, fittings, switches, and solenoids are all pretty much industry standards.

Regarding some of the other posts, dual and triple nozzle setups are super cheap and easy additions to standard kits. You can have a nozzle for each rotor and it really doesn't add much complexity. Since they all run off of one pump, its just a matter of adding an additional nozzle and solenoid valve to control it (and another switch to trigger the solenoid).

When it comes to controlling the setup, I suppose a computer controlled setup would trump a 1-,2-, or 3-stage standard setup, so I can see the reason why some kits could be over $700.

I won't pass an opinion of whether or not a computer controlled setup is necessary, since each person has their own goals in mind for their particular setups. Also, I didn't mean to sound like I don't think product development is good. I was just stating that I think the market is saturated for a simple alc/water/meth injection kit. Thats not to say that its a bad idea to create something new that hasn't been done before. That'd be cool.

rotarygod

While a computer programmable setup isn't necessary, fuel injection isn't either. Just use a carb. It's the exact same principle. Some of the simplest water injection systems I've ever seen were nothing more than a hobbs switch, a reservoir and a one way valve. A line ran from the boosted side to the reservoir to pressurize it. The outlet ran to the inlet side of the turbo for injection. Just an on/off switch. The amount injected varied with boost pressure and the total amount was restricted by "pills" of different sizes. It doesn't get any simpler than that. We all know there are better ways to do it though.

There are some people out there who can make damn near anything work with what they've got. There are others out there who can buy a generic kit and make it work on any car. Then there are those who can't. These people want an application specific product in which someone has figured out the setup for them with detailed instructions. Yet others need someone else to install it for them. You sound like a person that can apparently figure things out for yourself. Great!

BDC

Perhaps we're not on the same page here in terms of the practical application we're discussing, Riles. I wasn't referring to the windshield washer reservoir. That's apples and oranges compared to something that's designed to act as a secondary fuel injection system by way of being a replacement of a gross amount of fuel while under load - progressively.

I wasn't implying that a base manufacturer was deficient. I was arguing that it's not wise, IMO, to truck down to Home Depot, buy a few parts, order some generic stuff online, then put together a home-brew AI system and then implicitly expect it to be not only reliable but also to work 100%. ShurFlo -- The system I use utilizes a modified ShurFlo pump that's re-designed internally to be used with 100% methanol, submersed, 100% of the time, for years. Alot of the AI kit makers out there (not naming names) don't do that kind of work and their pumps wind up dying in relatively short order (9+ months) when using alcohol... but of course that's not usually public knowledge. They'll leak out of the pump heads due to shriveled up valves. How nice!

Tested? Where? Hey, if you want to send a flammable fluid through skinny nylon tubing (that's stiff and can kink at a bend very easily) that's "sealed" in place by brass crush grommets whilst working in a hot engine bay, don't let me stop you. Does your EFI system use nylon tubing w/ brass crush grommets on NPT fittings? No way in the world. Compare that to brass pipe fittings w/ teflon-core, stainless-steel braided hose: which of the two will have a greater chance of leaking? If Heaven-forbid there's a fire, which will die more quickly and cause a leak and therefore a greater danger? Hence, the argument for the focus on system robustness and reliability as well as my "no junk" comment. It's not meant to be controversial or offensive; it's meant to convey a point of seriousness that this isn't stuff that should be taken frivolously when looking to build a system.

I know that alot of systems use that stuff, but mine has no Hobbs' pressure switch nor does it have a solenoid or an accumulator. I'll tell ya about mine: it has a 1-gallon Jaz Junior Dragster fuel cell, the aforementioned pump, teflon-core stainless steel braided line w/ brass ends, a brass w/ bronze element filter, brass one-way check valve, brass -3AN tee, and two M10 nozzles. No unnecessary accumulator, no brass crush grommets, and no solenoid that can fail (open) and therefore dump 50+psi of pre-pressurized water/alcohol into the charge. Load sensing is done by way of +5V output signal from a GM 3bar MAP sensor. Three points of modification (when it comes on, what the starting pump voltage is, and the gain of pump voltage as load increases); pump is controlled by solid-state electronics. Works extremely well and very easy to tune. Maintains an even air/fuel ratio with increasing load even when replacing as much as 1/3 of the fuel w/ alcohol. No gee-whiz, ninja controller with 14 buttons and a laptop hookup. No stages that come on full-blast at x manifold pressure that makes the car bog until that load is well-passed.

I don't believe I implied that the parts in and of themselves were junk. My argument is about what parts are used and how a system is put together with respect to its practical application. By all means, there's a great deal of difference in terms of quality of a product between the different AI systems available. I spent some time shopping around prior to buying mine and have seen some since then. Like many product vendors and service providers from all different industries, the world of AI is no different in that there's normally a wide variety available in terms of quality and is, arguably, worse in that it seems as if it's in its unrealized infancy, in a global sense, and therefore alot of what comes out for sale is cheap junk and is nowhere near up to par in terms of how it's meant to be used. That's my take on it, atleast.

Why use staged? Don't you know that it produces practical results that are in stages as well? A particular "stage" might work well at one given load and RPM range, but vary that load and it'll either be too much or too deficient for it's purpose. With a stage activating, the engine will flood out, then recover, then be "lean" (in terms of AI importance) until that second stage occurs. Why lower the standards for AI, especially when it's relied upon with great importance while under heavy load? That's what I mean by "cheap", Riles. Why not use a higher quality setup that's progressive and that uses atleast MAP-based load sensing, similar to how EFI systems work?

Fair enough but I disagree with some of your points. But, then again, the root of our disagreement may be that we're using different fluids and aiming for different goals. Sprinkling water under a single stage of moderate load vs. spraying massive amounts of methyl alcohol to replace 30+% of fuel injection to run 5-15psi more boost are two different things.

Regards,

B

Riles

I think that is exactly what is happening. While I am touting the simple and effective use of AI in a standard setup (say in a bolt on Greddy setup) for cooling purposes, you are discussing a system that seems worthy of a professional drag racer.

Also, we are clearly describing two different setups since your post mentions going rich, stoich, and lean for each stage- when used for cooling, the system doesn't contribute to the overall air/fuel mixture (or at least not enough to cause a situation you described).

So, in short, if using the system for fuel, I would absolutely want the computer controlled setup you are describing. Just like I wouldn't want 3 injector stages for gasoline, I wouldn't want it for alc in that case.

But, if using it for cooling, I argue that the $200 system works wonders, and I'm saying that from experience. I put over 20,000 miles on my system, with an engine boosted 7 psi over stock with no additional cooling, and never had any problems.

I'm sure that we could go on for days picking out sentences we disagree with in each others posts, but as long as we can agree that we aren't really talking about the same thing, then I think we'll be just fine

BDC

I gotcha. Well, perhaps in this discussion we've gone over the merits of both. I've done a little bit of WI stuff myself but not extensively. I tuned a car out in TN a couple years back that had a single-stage system and I had him kick it on about 10psi. I felt comfortable letting him run 15psi full-time with it although I don't recall exactly what kind of nozzle he had. I did notice the IAT's drop some though under load which is what I would call "adding engine durability".

B

AIS

Most of our customers who are using our systems drive their cars on the street. Water methanol injection is quickly becoming a must have for guys running superchargers or turbochargers with the boost turned up over factory on pump gas. While many customers don't have to have it. Its cheap insurance for supercharged and turbocharged engines. Ensuring they have plenty of octane when in boost in addition to added cooling.

For more information on how water methanol injection works read some of the many articles in our tech section. www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com

If you haven't seen it already. Check out our new competition rear trunk mount water methanol injection system.

Were currently sold out on tanks. Another shipment of tanks should arrive on Jan. 22nd. While were out of stock on these, we are still taking orders and offering $70.00 off the normal price.Here are the prices below.

AIS Stage 1 Competition Trunk Mount $349.99
AIS Stage 2 Competition Trunk Mount $479.99

Once the tanks arrive and systems are available to ship the normal retail prices below will apply.

AIS Stage 1 Competition Trunk Mount $419.99
AIS Stage 2 Competition Trunk Mount $549.99

If you already have a system and just want the tank with straps and necessary fittings. Price is $139.99

Features Include The Following:

*3 gallon capacity
*Dimensions are 14" long (not including the 1.25" rear sump) by 10.5" wide by 7.5" tall
*Aircraft style locking cap with built in flapper vent.
*Large cap allows you to access the inside for those who want to stuff the tank with safety foam
*Built in virtual sump with dual 3/8 npt rear pick up's
*Dual pick ups allows the use of a second pump for our high horsepower guys who max out one pump - sounds crazy but it happens!
*Pump is reversed under the tank for a clean over head appearance
*Reversing the pump under the tank allowed also to also break up the floor of the tank to help control fluid slosh