Axial Flow Supercharger
12-06-2004, 10:14 AM
#876
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how can u make 4 stages of compression without stators between the stages? that would not create a straight airflow pattern. also what would happen if one of those blades liberated and FOD-ed out the compressor? also, how do you measure the RPM band on a rotating compressor like that? i would be worried about overspeed at higher RPM's when u have stages of blades rotating.
12-06-2004, 11:44 AM
#877
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Originally Posted by ironmedic
how can u make 4 stages of compression without stators between the stages? that would not create a straight airflow pattern. also what would happen if one of those blades liberated and FOD-ed out the compressor? also, how do you measure the RPM band on a rotating compressor like that? i would be worried about overspeed at higher RPM's when u have stages of blades rotating.
Check out his pics, he has Stators.
As for Blades Liberating, he indicated that the Lathom blower was sold some 1000 times, and he only knows of the blades comming lose on one of them that was struck on the side, by a falling tool. The blades passed through the engine, with no harm.
He is using unobtanium allow, which is apprently 400% stronger than needed for this application, and thus very reliable and sturdy.
12-06-2004, 11:50 AM
#878
Mmmmm... Rotary Donut
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Originally Posted by IcemanVKO
He is using unobtanium allow, which is apprently 400% stronger than needed for this application, and thus very reliable and sturdy.
12-06-2004, 02:15 PM
#880
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Hey guys, I fell asleep around page 30! .... sorry!
I know that this is still in the test phase, but are there any other updates... i.e. installed application, or compatibility testing?
Thanks!
Great work so far R.P.!!
Interesting Pictures!
I know that this is still in the test phase, but are there any other updates... i.e. installed application, or compatibility testing?
Thanks!
Great work so far R.P.!!
Interesting Pictures!
12-06-2004, 02:18 PM
#881
Registered
The only installation application for this particular unit is the Renesis engine. Unlike other companies that build turbos or supercahrgers and you pick the one that works best for your engine, this one is being designed slely for the airflow needs of the Renesis. No guess work.
He is retrofitting new planetary gears and is testing them currently. The blower unit is built. After he tests for gear durability and noise then he needs to get back testing again on an engine. So forth and so on. He is doing it the proper way. It just takes time.
He is retrofitting new planetary gears and is testing them currently. The blower unit is built. After he tests for gear durability and noise then he needs to get back testing again on an engine. So forth and so on. He is doing it the proper way. It just takes time.
12-06-2004, 03:10 PM
#882
Kaiten Kenbu Rokuren
Rotarygod, those pictures you posted are of the 5 stage blower correct? I might have missed something but didn't Richard say that he changed it to a 4 stage blower design for flow reasons? There's a good chance I'm wrong, so anyone feel free to let me know.
12-06-2004, 03:30 PM
#884
I WAS BEES
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I think this should be a clearification for everyone.
It is by strong belief that the Tissue box is not to show a size comparison.
It is intended to clean up any mess that might have been created from seeing an FI solution for the RX8.
I also believe they are suggesting you bring one with you in the car after getting it installed.
Serious side effects can occur after pressing the gas pedal.
It is by strong belief that the Tissue box is not to show a size comparison.
It is intended to clean up any mess that might have been created from seeing an FI solution for the RX8.
I also believe they are suggesting you bring one with you in the car after getting it installed.
Serious side effects can occur after pressing the gas pedal.
12-06-2004, 03:32 PM
#885
Mmmmm... Rotary Donut
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Originally Posted by Photic
I think this should be a clearification for everyone.
It is by strong belief that the Tissue box is not to show a size comparison.
It is intended to clean up any mess that might have been created from seeing an FI solution for the RX8.
I also believe they are suggesting you bring one with you in the car after getting it installed.
Serious side effects can occur after pressing the gas pedal.
It is by strong belief that the Tissue box is not to show a size comparison.
It is intended to clean up any mess that might have been created from seeing an FI solution for the RX8.
I also believe they are suggesting you bring one with you in the car after getting it installed.
Serious side effects can occur after pressing the gas pedal.
12-06-2004, 04:02 PM
#886
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Originally Posted by IcemanVKO
Check out his pics, he has Stators.
As for Blades Liberating, he indicated that the Lathom blower was sold some 1000 times, and he only knows of the blades comming lose on one of them that was struck on the side, by a falling tool. The blades passed through the engine, with no harm.
He is using unobtanium allow, which is apprently 400% stronger than needed for this application, and thus very reliable and sturdy.
As for Blades Liberating, he indicated that the Lathom blower was sold some 1000 times, and he only knows of the blades comming lose on one of them that was struck on the side, by a falling tool. The blades passed through the engine, with no harm.
He is using unobtanium allow, which is apprently 400% stronger than needed for this application, and thus very reliable and sturdy.
the pics a bit small and i cant see the stators but if u say they are on there then cool.
its kinda hard to read through 60 pages of chat
12-06-2004, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Since the pics are hard to find, here they are again:
ah there are the stators! the first couple pics early in the thread didnt have those shots! good thing u reposted em
12-06-2004, 04:17 PM
#888
Let me help the Q/A along. We have built both 4 and 5 stage units. The production unit will be four, i think. The 5 stage makes more pressure then you can use in the stock configuration. There is no need have the extra stage coming along for the ride.
There are stators for each rotor as you can see in the pictures posted by rotarygod.
The pressure produced by this many stages may seem low to those use to numbers produced by modern gas turbine powerplants. The reason for this is the "lift" produced by
the blade design. Modern jet engines use between 15 and 30 stages, producing 200 to 400 psi. My numbers may be a little general I've not studied these things in awhile. If you want to get up to the miniute spot on numbers ask our resident expert Turbine-pwr.
Anyway they make pressures per stage based on a maximized design that has little off design performance. If we used that design we could get away with two stages but it would only work in a small rpm band.
This is the basis for all my research in the past. No one else has had a need for this kind of performance from a AF compressor. The price that we pay is more then would be worth it in other applications. The price being efficency loss. But don't fret we have a long way to go between this style compressor and the others. example: I have usually produced compressors with 85% eff while a good jet engine will produce 94%+.
I'm still 20% higher then the next guy. Those numbers aren't off the wall, if you think that jet engines are getting close to perpetual motion you have no idea how hard they try. I think the new RR has 32 stages over 300 psi and in the high 90's eff wise. I know the B-1 has 390 psi but I have no knowlage of other numbers as the last I read it was still unreleased gov info.
So the bottom line is that I use a design that has a broad lift range. Think about it like trying to get a C-130 off the ground with f-18 wings. Then try and go near sonic with the C-130 wing. You can see the need for compromise in the design. We can only do this because we don't fall out of the sky if we cross a line somewhere. (Don't attack me on this explaination Turbine, I'm generalizing to make it clear to the avarage reader.)
The fact that both size blowers are being tested is your assurance that the right compressor will be supplied in the production kit. On top of that the stages are expensive, adding some costs.
Hope I got everone, Richard
Ok I did forget one thing. The blade structure is one of the first things analized when the design is started. No sense building it if it fails. This design has a saftey factor of 4 as posted by someone already. There is very little work being done by a single blade. That's why there are several hundred of them. The pressure on the blade is only that which is being made by the lift of that stage. Times the area of the blade itself. In this case it's only a couple of ounces.
There are stators for each rotor as you can see in the pictures posted by rotarygod.
The pressure produced by this many stages may seem low to those use to numbers produced by modern gas turbine powerplants. The reason for this is the "lift" produced by
the blade design. Modern jet engines use between 15 and 30 stages, producing 200 to 400 psi. My numbers may be a little general I've not studied these things in awhile. If you want to get up to the miniute spot on numbers ask our resident expert Turbine-pwr.
Anyway they make pressures per stage based on a maximized design that has little off design performance. If we used that design we could get away with two stages but it would only work in a small rpm band.
This is the basis for all my research in the past. No one else has had a need for this kind of performance from a AF compressor. The price that we pay is more then would be worth it in other applications. The price being efficency loss. But don't fret we have a long way to go between this style compressor and the others. example: I have usually produced compressors with 85% eff while a good jet engine will produce 94%+.
I'm still 20% higher then the next guy. Those numbers aren't off the wall, if you think that jet engines are getting close to perpetual motion you have no idea how hard they try. I think the new RR has 32 stages over 300 psi and in the high 90's eff wise. I know the B-1 has 390 psi but I have no knowlage of other numbers as the last I read it was still unreleased gov info.
So the bottom line is that I use a design that has a broad lift range. Think about it like trying to get a C-130 off the ground with f-18 wings. Then try and go near sonic with the C-130 wing. You can see the need for compromise in the design. We can only do this because we don't fall out of the sky if we cross a line somewhere. (Don't attack me on this explaination Turbine, I'm generalizing to make it clear to the avarage reader.)
The fact that both size blowers are being tested is your assurance that the right compressor will be supplied in the production kit. On top of that the stages are expensive, adding some costs.
Hope I got everone, Richard
Ok I did forget one thing. The blade structure is one of the first things analized when the design is started. No sense building it if it fails. This design has a saftey factor of 4 as posted by someone already. There is very little work being done by a single blade. That's why there are several hundred of them. The pressure on the blade is only that which is being made by the lift of that stage. Times the area of the blade itself. In this case it's only a couple of ounces.
Last edited by Richard Paul; 12-06-2004 at 04:28 PM.
12-06-2004, 09:32 PM
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Richard Everytime I think I have convinced myself to by an MS6, you post something and make me think how much I will hate myself for missing out on this beast you are creating for the RX8
I hope you realize how excited you have us here.
Hurry up and finish it so we can start talking you into making a Transmission for the RX8, that can handle more HP.
I hope you realize how excited you have us here.
Hurry up and finish it so we can start talking you into making a Transmission for the RX8, that can handle more HP.
12-06-2004, 09:40 PM
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a C17 uses 4 Pratt & Whitney F117-100 jet engines with 17 stages of compression. 5 stages of fan and 12 stages of core. it then goes through 5 stages of turbine on its way out the door.
an F15 will use either a G.E. or P&W jet engine. The ones i worked on were the PW F100-100/220/220E/229 style motors. they have 13 stages of compression. 3 stages are fan and the rest is core. it then goes through 4 stages of turbine on its way out through the augmentor.
in the end, jet engines are very efficient for what they do and the only way to break them hard is to throw a wrench into the fan (or ingest a bird).
to learn how a jet engine works, watch this:
http://www.rolls-royce.com/education...ney/flash.html
i do have a quick question for you! what do you use to rotate the blades when the car starts up? on jet engines, the gearbox will initially rotate the jet engine until it is up to self sustaining RPM's. will there be enough airflow through the tube to rotate 4 stages of blades?
an F15 will use either a G.E. or P&W jet engine. The ones i worked on were the PW F100-100/220/220E/229 style motors. they have 13 stages of compression. 3 stages are fan and the rest is core. it then goes through 4 stages of turbine on its way out through the augmentor.
in the end, jet engines are very efficient for what they do and the only way to break them hard is to throw a wrench into the fan (or ingest a bird).
to learn how a jet engine works, watch this:
http://www.rolls-royce.com/education...ney/flash.html
i do have a quick question for you! what do you use to rotate the blades when the car starts up? on jet engines, the gearbox will initially rotate the jet engine until it is up to self sustaining RPM's. will there be enough airflow through the tube to rotate 4 stages of blades?
12-06-2004, 10:11 PM
#893
As gomez says, it's hooked to the crankshaft. If the crank turns so does the compressor. The thing that regulates the output is the inlet density. If the TB is closed then the rotor is doing almost no work in a fractional vacuum.
Last edited by Richard Paul; 12-20-2004 at 02:02 PM.
12-07-2004, 07:50 AM
#898
Sorry that I am a little slow at getting back to thank all of you for your response to my AT - Supercharger question. Sorry Kari I did not mean to slight you as I tend to forget that young ladies also are interested in fast exotic cars as I also tend to forget that computers now run cars.
As far as young goes, my youngest child is 48 so I guess that anyone under 50 is young.
I'm not discouraged and will continue to follow this Thread to see the final outcome. Who knows strange things happen, Richard Paul may find that he can only make his work on a AT.
As far as young goes, my youngest child is 48 so I guess that anyone under 50 is young.
I'm not discouraged and will continue to follow this Thread to see the final outcome. Who knows strange things happen, Richard Paul may find that he can only make his work on a AT.
12-07-2004, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul
As gomez says, it's hooked to the crankshaft. If the crank turns so does the compressor. The thing that regulates the output is the inlet density. If the TB is closed then the rotor is doing almost no work in a fractional vacuume.
what would make this different from a supercharger output? if this unit produces 6psi of pressure, would that equate to the same power output as a turbo or supercharger at the same psi rating? if so, would it be cheaper to buy this than a turbo/supercharger?
