Axial Flow Supercharger
01-20-2005, 10:46 PM
#1028
Rangers Lead The Way!
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Probably in kahoots with you. Youcatthrowingbastard 
And Hymee, lets not joke about it, he has helped all those potential SC customers to run and buy turbos. He may be the enemy.
And Hymee, lets not joke about it, he has helped all those potential SC customers to run and buy turbos. He may be the enemy.
01-22-2005, 05:28 PM
#1031
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I'm still interested in it as well, but I cant say that I haven't been tempted lately by all the turbo talk. Maybe, Richard, if you posted some information about what to expect out of the AFSC it would help convince people to wait for it instead of running out in droves to buy the turbo.
01-22-2005, 05:46 PM
#1033
Well, I'd really like to predict what is going to happen but I don't speculate on those things. Even using all the math available to me it isn't a positive until you run it.
I can predict that it will out perform the turbo's in drivablity. It will be easier to install and run cooler. It will not need the intercooler. Also it should not require you to drive around the patterns of the blower curves.
When installed correctly you shouldn't even know it is there.
I can't get this done faster just because people are running out and buying turbos.
It will get done and done right. That's my only statement. We will have some more running time soon but whether or not that info can be released remains to be seen. As I don't own the test engine and am doing it with another company it is up to them if the info can be made public. Sorry but I have to respect their wishes.
I can predict that it will out perform the turbo's in drivablity. It will be easier to install and run cooler. It will not need the intercooler. Also it should not require you to drive around the patterns of the blower curves.
When installed correctly you shouldn't even know it is there.
I can't get this done faster just because people are running out and buying turbos.
It will get done and done right. That's my only statement. We will have some more running time soon but whether or not that info can be released remains to be seen. As I don't own the test engine and am doing it with another company it is up to them if the info can be made public. Sorry but I have to respect their wishes.
01-22-2005, 05:48 PM
#1035
Kaiten Kenbu Rokuren
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Well, I'd really like to predict what is going to happen but I don't speculate on those things. Even using all the math available to me it isn't a positive until you run it.
I can predict that it will out perform the turbo's in drivablity. It will be easier to install and run cooler. It will not need the intercooler. Also it should not require you to drive around the patterns of the blower curves.
When installed correctly you shouldn't even know it is there.
I can't get this done faster just because people are running out and buying turbos.
It will get done and done right. That's my only statement. We will have some more running time soon but whether or not that info can be released remains to be seen. As I don't own the test engine and am doing it with another company it is up to them if the info can be made public. Sorry but I have to respect their wishes.
I can predict that it will out perform the turbo's in drivablity. It will be easier to install and run cooler. It will not need the intercooler. Also it should not require you to drive around the patterns of the blower curves.
When installed correctly you shouldn't even know it is there.
I can't get this done faster just because people are running out and buying turbos.
It will get done and done right. That's my only statement. We will have some more running time soon but whether or not that info can be released remains to be seen. As I don't own the test engine and am doing it with another company it is up to them if the info can be made public. Sorry but I have to respect their wishes.
01-22-2005, 06:01 PM
#1036
Sure you can put an intercooler on if you want but there will be minimal gain. IC's do have drawbacks you know. This reminds me of the turbo craze in the '80's. The turbo was to be the end all of creation. Hence everything in the world has "turbo" written on it to this day.
Yet we have learned better haven't we. How many turbo cars are the OE making vs SC cars.
IC take resistance to go through them. in certain conditions they can actually add heat. They are hard to fit into the car, the cost alot of money and they are one more thing to worry about. You have all that extra tubing to fill and drain. It makes the car harder to work on and they add weight.
If you can keep the intake air within a usable temp go without the IC. The only time you have to have it is when you reach the thermal limit of the engine internals.
IC by themselves do not add more air to the engine. What comes out of the compressor by mass is all that you get no matter what the temp or pressure.
I've written on this elseware as has rotarygod, you might try searching for it. I can't remember the thread.
Edit)
Forgot about the BOV. This is not a requirment nor can you use it if you want to. That is only used to keep the turbo spinning so there will be less lag. There is no lag with the AFSC. Since the axial flow will be a draw through the duct between the blower and manifold will be at manifold pressure. You wouldn't want to use a BOV connected to the intake manifold would you??
Yet we have learned better haven't we. How many turbo cars are the OE making vs SC cars.
IC take resistance to go through them. in certain conditions they can actually add heat. They are hard to fit into the car, the cost alot of money and they are one more thing to worry about. You have all that extra tubing to fill and drain. It makes the car harder to work on and they add weight.
If you can keep the intake air within a usable temp go without the IC. The only time you have to have it is when you reach the thermal limit of the engine internals.
IC by themselves do not add more air to the engine. What comes out of the compressor by mass is all that you get no matter what the temp or pressure.
I've written on this elseware as has rotarygod, you might try searching for it. I can't remember the thread.
Edit)
Forgot about the BOV. This is not a requirment nor can you use it if you want to. That is only used to keep the turbo spinning so there will be less lag. There is no lag with the AFSC. Since the axial flow will be a draw through the duct between the blower and manifold will be at manifold pressure. You wouldn't want to use a BOV connected to the intake manifold would you??
Last edited by Richard Paul; 01-22-2005 at 06:45 PM.
01-22-2005, 06:21 PM
#1037
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You should take preorders with customers paying like 1/2 full price, and take the money and buy your own 8 to work on.
Just Kidding, thanks for all your hard work and I look forward to this whenever it comes about. The part about being more drivable really interests me so I'll probably wait.
Just Kidding, thanks for all your hard work and I look forward to this whenever it comes about. The part about being more drivable really interests me so I'll probably wait.
01-22-2005, 06:25 PM
#1038
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The turbo results are looking impressive with a gain of 50hp at 3k rpms. Can you refresh us on what psi and how many stages your kit(s) will be selling for?
01-22-2005, 07:02 PM
#1039
I can't tell you what the price is going to be as I have no idea what we will have in the electronics. We also haven't decided if we will make a new intake manifold from aluminum.
Currently I believe we shall be using four stages and 7 psi. maybe 8. Just depends on how much heat and how much fuel we get.
It looks like the stock fuel pump and nozzles will work. That's something on the plus side.
Currently I believe we shall be using four stages and 7 psi. maybe 8. Just depends on how much heat and how much fuel we get.
It looks like the stock fuel pump and nozzles will work. That's something on the plus side.
01-23-2005, 05:32 PM
#1043
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Richard, a hypothetical question: But just assuming you wanted to produce 15 psi of boost and you'd use 8 stages. Now could you instead of using an intercooler, pump cold water through the housing? Compared to other superchargers the axial flow supercharger has more surface area and also the stators are not moving and should therefore be coolable as well. In addition the pressurized air would slightly be cooled after each stage and therefore reduce the total compression work for the same amount of massflow.
Is this feasible or have you actually tried it or are you doing this anyway (I didn't read the entire thread)? Or is the surface area still not large enough to justify an integrated watercooling?
Is this feasible or have you actually tried it or are you doing this anyway (I didn't read the entire thread)? Or is the surface area still not large enough to justify an integrated watercooling?
01-23-2005, 05:57 PM
#1044
Well first of all we get 18 psi from 7 stages. Now of course you can get some cooling from water around the housing but it wouldn't be enough. Think of the surface area of all those fins in an intercooler. How would you get the water? It would have to be very cold to do any good. In an off shore boat this might be of some use. However lets look at the practical considerations, like how would I make the housing? It has to seal on the ends and if made in two halves each other. I can't see an easy way to even fit it with the draw rods in the way. That would keep you from sealing on the volutes.
Intercoolers are easier and cheaper. Even in the offshore use the absolut best place in the world for intercoolin. You have an unlimited supply of cold water. Even a small cooler placed under water can reject a lot of heat. They do this for the oil anyway. A very small hull shaped housing is put on the trim plates, pumping oil through this removes all the heat needed. The engine should be done with a liquid to liquid cooling system but sometimes they just use sea water to cool the engines which is wrong.
Intercoolers are easier and cheaper. Even in the offshore use the absolut best place in the world for intercoolin. You have an unlimited supply of cold water. Even a small cooler placed under water can reject a lot of heat. They do this for the oil anyway. A very small hull shaped housing is put on the trim plates, pumping oil through this removes all the heat needed. The engine should be done with a liquid to liquid cooling system but sometimes they just use sea water to cool the engines which is wrong.
01-23-2005, 06:17 PM
#1045
Richard,
My neighbour is a ship/boat builder. He build a large wave piercing cat for this guy 2 years ago. It could go from Aus to US without refuelling. It had a pair of refurbished Gardeners. You could hand crank them if needed.
The point I am getting to is to confirm one of the things you said. The coolant of this boat was circulated through "flutes" in the hull - just looked like the normal pattern you see on the bottom of a aluminium dingy - and that was enough for the heat exhanger. Also they didn't have to worry about a sea-chest, and it getting clogged with injested sea-weed etc. But my buddy said he wouldn't do that again...
Cheers,
Hymee.
My neighbour is a ship/boat builder. He build a large wave piercing cat for this guy 2 years ago. It could go from Aus to US without refuelling. It had a pair of refurbished Gardeners. You could hand crank them if needed.
The point I am getting to is to confirm one of the things you said. The coolant of this boat was circulated through "flutes" in the hull - just looked like the normal pattern you see on the bottom of a aluminium dingy - and that was enough for the heat exhanger. Also they didn't have to worry about a sea-chest, and it getting clogged with injested sea-weed etc. But my buddy said he wouldn't do that again...
Cheers,
Hymee.
Last edited by Hymee; 02-03-2005 at 03:09 PM.
01-23-2005, 06:18 PM
#1046
Richard,
My neighbour is a ship/boat builder. He build a large wave piercing cat for this guy 2 years ago. It could go from Aus to US without refuelling. It had a pair of refurbished Gardeners. You could hand crank them if needed.
The point I am getting to is to confirm one of the things you said. The coolant of this boat was circulated through "flutes" in the hull - just looked like the normal pattern you see on the bottom of a aluminium dingy - and that was enough for the heat exhanger. Also they didn't have to worry about a sea-chest, and it getting clogged with injested sea-weed etc. But my buddy said he wouldn't do that again...
(BTW - you brought up boats :D :p )
Cheers,
Hymee.
My neighbour is a ship/boat builder. He build a large wave piercing cat for this guy 2 years ago. It could go from Aus to US without refuelling. It had a pair of refurbished Gardeners. You could hand crank them if needed.
The point I am getting to is to confirm one of the things you said. The coolant of this boat was circulated through "flutes" in the hull - just looked like the normal pattern you see on the bottom of a aluminium dingy - and that was enough for the heat exhanger. Also they didn't have to worry about a sea-chest, and it getting clogged with injested sea-weed etc. But my buddy said he wouldn't do that again...
(BTW - you brought up boats
:D :p )Cheers,
Hymee.
01-23-2005, 06:55 PM
#1047
Holy ****, that thing is magnifacent. I've never seen anything like it. How can it plane on those thin hulls? Or does it? What is the fabric over the frame? Pattern making? It looks all aluminum except the center hull looks steel?
The engines are in the outer hulls and the fuel also, are there passage ways in and out from the main hull?
I know you didn't build it and I'm asking a lot of questions but that thing is so interesting.
And I'm impressed with you knowing what a "seachest" is. You must have spent some time on a large boat or been in the navy.
Edit) Forget it I can see now that it is ali.
The engines are in the outer hulls and the fuel also, are there passage ways in and out from the main hull?
I know you didn't build it and I'm asking a lot of questions but that thing is so interesting.
And I'm impressed with you knowing what a "seachest" is. You must have spent some time on a large boat or been in the navy.
Edit) Forget it I can see now that it is ali.
:D
01-23-2005, 08:20 PM
#1049
It's OK Steve, Philodox is only 4 posts behind. I know he's gonna pass me but make hin sweat it for as long as we can.
It's not to far off topic, I build my big blower for offshore boats. Not that big but they are boats.
It's not to far off topic, I build my big blower for offshore boats. Not that big but they are boats.
Last edited by Richard Paul; 01-23-2005 at 08:22 PM.
