Axial Flow Supercharger
08-16-2005, 01:21 PM
#2251
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This unit not only fools the Factory ECU it also has the capability to control up to 2 addition injectors, and can directly control spark timing.
The end result would be the same.
I can see wanting to fix the problem instead of putting a band aid on it.
If Richard wants to control everything that would mean the entire ECU would need to be replace with stand-alone. Which would drive up the price of the kit.
The Greddy unit can be password locked to prevent tampering. That way only Axialflow engineering can modify the controlling parameters and the factory ECU would remain in place keeping cost down.
ALSO
If something in the vehicle was to brake one could just unplug the piggy back unit remove the supercharger and take the car to the local dealership of service.
My dealership is cool with aftermarket products they will even put them on for a flat rate/hr and warranty there install.
The end result would be the same.
I can see wanting to fix the problem instead of putting a band aid on it.
If Richard wants to control everything that would mean the entire ECU would need to be replace with stand-alone. Which would drive up the price of the kit.
The Greddy unit can be password locked to prevent tampering. That way only Axialflow engineering can modify the controlling parameters and the factory ECU would remain in place keeping cost down.
ALSO
If something in the vehicle was to brake one could just unplug the piggy back unit remove the supercharger and take the car to the local dealership of service.
My dealership is cool with aftermarket products they will even put them on for a flat rate/hr and warranty there install.
Last edited by deppenma; 08-16-2005 at 01:24 PM.
08-16-2005, 01:26 PM
#2252
Administrator
A. there are several options available right now that take direct control of the fuel and timing that are better than the emanage solution and just as easily removed.
B. the greddy units supplied by greddy to the turbo kit owners a"locked" too. that lasted maybe a month once people got their kits.
if something were to break that didnt have anything to do witht heSC then there is no reason to take it out. If it has to do witht he SC why would you take it to the dealer instead of a Reputable rotary shop? If you take it out and go to the dealer they cant properly diagnose what is wrong with only half the info.
B. the greddy units supplied by greddy to the turbo kit owners a"locked" too. that lasted maybe a month once people got their kits.
if something were to break that didnt have anything to do witht heSC then there is no reason to take it out. If it has to do witht he SC why would you take it to the dealer instead of a Reputable rotary shop? If you take it out and go to the dealer they cant properly diagnose what is wrong with only half the info.
08-16-2005, 01:52 PM
#2253
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A dealership when I lived in GA would not look at my car when I had an ABS problem (Honda Accord) because I had a CAI on the Car. Took it off and went back talked to a different service person and even the manager when they pulled my records I got a look at the screen there was a big warning on the screen stating “The vehicle has had customer modifications performed all warranties are void.” They said they would not warenty the ABS system. Pissed off I left and went to another dealership in the next town the next day and got the same story when they pulled my records based on my VIN number. 
I finally got it fixed by a friend and put the CAI back on.
No problems for 2 years but when it happened again after moving to FL I went to my local dealership and they fixed it under warranty even with the CAI. They also had the warning about customer modifications pop up on the screen. They said that that was a cop out that dealerships do not make money on warranties only on full all out repairs.
Its another way they try to screw the consumer.
I know there is laws out there to protect us form that sort of thing but the only way to enforce it is to go get a lawyer.
Back on topic.
To Richard just get the AFSC working so I can buy one.
I finally got it fixed by a friend and put the CAI back on.
No problems for 2 years but when it happened again after moving to FL I went to my local dealership and they fixed it under warranty even with the CAI. They also had the warning about customer modifications pop up on the screen. They said that that was a cop out that dealerships do not make money on warranties only on full all out repairs.
Its another way they try to screw the consumer.
I know there is laws out there to protect us form that sort of thing but the only way to enforce it is to go get a lawyer.
Back on topic.
To Richard just get the AFSC working so I can buy one.
08-16-2005, 03:03 PM
#2255
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Here's why the eManage is not a good choice and why som many are alerady having issues with it. You need to know the difference between a piggyback ecu and a standalone. The eManage is a piggyback
Let's say your engine is a puppet. Your ecu is a puppet master. It has control of the puppet by pulling on the strings. Simple enough. A piggyback ecu is the annoying little kid that is trying to alter the puppet's performance by pulling on the strings midway down. The problem is can you do it without the puppet master knowing it and how long can you keep it up before he finds out? This is what the eManage is doing. It is modifying the signal from the ecu to the engine. The problem is that the stock ecu has a way of altering it's performance to account for yours' In other words, it figures out that there is an annoying little kid playing with it's strings and it changes the way it plays in order to get the puppet doing what it wants to again. No you have to go back and make another change so it works your way until it figures this all out again. There is no point in locking out settings on it. They won't stay tuned and will need changing again. A piggyback system is fine on a car where the ecu never compensates or learns what changes have been make. This car however, it is not a good choice for.
A standalone ecu is like taking those puppet strings and cutting them away from the puppet master. Then you hook up your own and control it however you want. The puppet master can try all he wants but with strings connected to nothing, he can't do anything about you. He can complain all he wants. He has no control. However on the RX-8, the puppet master stock ecu controls far more than just the engine. We need to find a way to make him happy yet still do what we want. That takes us to the next scenario.
Let's say that the engine fuel and igntion control are only 2 of the strings in the puppet that the ecu is controlling. The piggyback system we know will be detected so that option is out. How about cutting only these 2 strings and installing our own. That's the best option right now. The factory ecu can still control the drive by wire, emissions control devices, abs, traction control, etc, but we have control of the ignition and fuel. This is how my Megasquirt project is working and also how Mazsport's system is working. As long as we tune the engine within a certain range (which is actually a very wide range btw), the stock ecu sees nothing wrong with the "performance" and doesn't care. Everything else keeps working just fine on the car but we control the engine.
Richard wants to try one more option but I personally think this is going to be difficult. He wants to control ignition but just add fuel on top of the stock ecu. In other words he wants to cut no strings from the fuel side of the puppet but wants to add an additional one to add more fuel at the same proportions according to the additional air the supercharger is providing. This means a standalone type of control on ignition but an added factor on the fuel.
Hope that helps explain why the eManage is not suited for this car and why there are so many better alternatives.
Let's say your engine is a puppet. Your ecu is a puppet master. It has control of the puppet by pulling on the strings. Simple enough. A piggyback ecu is the annoying little kid that is trying to alter the puppet's performance by pulling on the strings midway down. The problem is can you do it without the puppet master knowing it and how long can you keep it up before he finds out? This is what the eManage is doing. It is modifying the signal from the ecu to the engine. The problem is that the stock ecu has a way of altering it's performance to account for yours' In other words, it figures out that there is an annoying little kid playing with it's strings and it changes the way it plays in order to get the puppet doing what it wants to again. No you have to go back and make another change so it works your way until it figures this all out again. There is no point in locking out settings on it. They won't stay tuned and will need changing again. A piggyback system is fine on a car where the ecu never compensates or learns what changes have been make. This car however, it is not a good choice for.
A standalone ecu is like taking those puppet strings and cutting them away from the puppet master. Then you hook up your own and control it however you want. The puppet master can try all he wants but with strings connected to nothing, he can't do anything about you. He can complain all he wants. He has no control. However on the RX-8, the puppet master stock ecu controls far more than just the engine. We need to find a way to make him happy yet still do what we want. That takes us to the next scenario.
Let's say that the engine fuel and igntion control are only 2 of the strings in the puppet that the ecu is controlling. The piggyback system we know will be detected so that option is out. How about cutting only these 2 strings and installing our own. That's the best option right now. The factory ecu can still control the drive by wire, emissions control devices, abs, traction control, etc, but we have control of the ignition and fuel. This is how my Megasquirt project is working and also how Mazsport's system is working. As long as we tune the engine within a certain range (which is actually a very wide range btw), the stock ecu sees nothing wrong with the "performance" and doesn't care. Everything else keeps working just fine on the car but we control the engine.
Richard wants to try one more option but I personally think this is going to be difficult. He wants to control ignition but just add fuel on top of the stock ecu. In other words he wants to cut no strings from the fuel side of the puppet but wants to add an additional one to add more fuel at the same proportions according to the additional air the supercharger is providing. This means a standalone type of control on ignition but an added factor on the fuel.
Hope that helps explain why the eManage is not suited for this car and why there are so many better alternatives.
08-16-2005, 03:07 PM
#2256
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This is similar to a nitrous application, correct?
Originally Posted by rotarygod
Richard wants to try one more option but I personally think this is going to be difficult. He wants to control ignition but just add fuel on top of the stock ecu. In other words he wants to cut no strings from the fuel side of the puppet but wants to add an additional one to add more fuel at the same proportions according to the additional air the supercharger is providing. This means a standalone type of control on ignition but an added factor on the fuel.
Hope that helps explain why the eManage is not suited for this car and why there are so many better alternatives.
Hope that helps explain why the eManage is not suited for this car and why there are so many better alternatives.
08-16-2005, 05:17 PM
#2258
Registered
More or less but controlling the timing is the hard part of it. The fuel part is easy. You can't even apply a nitrous timing computer as we need the ability to control leading and trailing timing and then do it away from the prying eyes of the factory ecu. Since the leading and trailing timing split are constantly changing with different loads and rpm's, just simply retarding it when under boost isn't the best idea. We really need it's own ignition map when under boost. I just don't like the idea of a piggyback trying to do this.
I am not against the idea of running the extra injectors where he wants them and I am not against his control idea in theory. I am having a hard time figuring out how it could all be made to work in practice.
I am not against the idea of running the extra injectors where he wants them and I am not against his control idea in theory. I am having a hard time figuring out how it could all be made to work in practice.
Last edited by rotarygod; 08-16-2005 at 07:42 PM.
08-16-2005, 05:38 PM
#2259
Ive been silent on this tread for a while but I have been keeping up with it. RP you have it going on dude.
NOW THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!
I see the light at the end of the tunnel. TKeep doing what you have been doing ---dont rush it. And when it's done it will be right.
Getting rid of the plastic manifold huh--lol.
I know this is probaly already been talked about but what type of lubrication will this unit use? Will running a pre mix through it be ok?
I am proud to be in your generation man!
olddragger
NOW THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!
I see the light at the end of the tunnel. TKeep doing what you have been doing ---dont rush it. And when it's done it will be right.
Getting rid of the plastic manifold huh--lol.
I know this is probaly already been talked about but what type of lubrication will this unit use? Will running a pre mix through it be ok?
I am proud to be in your generation man!
olddragger
08-17-2005, 12:10 PM
#2261
Thanks RG. I figued that but I have been reading about some atypicals with sealed lubrication systems and I was wondering.
What do you think about premix? It would probaly be easier just to fix the dang omp but I'm still wondering if the pre mix might still have advantages.
Olddragger
What do you think about premix? It would probaly be easier just to fix the dang omp but I'm still wondering if the pre mix might still have advantages.
Olddragger
:p
08-19-2005, 09:45 PM
#2266
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Originally Posted by staticlag
What kind of increases are you shooting for Richard? Any idea what we are looking at with one of these on an RX8?
B...free
michael
08-19-2005, 09:47 PM
#2267
The Professor
Originally Posted by Lock & Load
Both RP and the Hymster are shooting for higher figures ?????but so far we are being kept in the dark and only given bits of tantallising information
B...free
michael
B...free
michael
Waaaaaaaa!!!
end rant.
08-20-2005, 02:33 PM
#2272
Originally Posted by Aoshi Shinomori
What is the difference between an alternator and a generator? Do they create current/power in different ways? Or is it that the alternator is not independent like the generator? 
Generator makes DC (Direct Current)
Alternator has a recitifier in it that converts to DC so your car can use it.
Generator doesn't have to do that because its already making DC.
Generator is good at making voltage in a small rpm range.
Alternators have multiple phases, ususally 3 for cars, that each make power best in a certain rpm range so it makes more consistent current throughout the powerband.
Richard, I stopped by a couple months ago to buy a short shifter and love it. I live close by and if you ever need to you can use my car for comparisons once you get the SC on your yellow 8. Once your SC gets CA smog EOD# count me in, I want one!
08-21-2005, 09:39 PM
#2273
Mazsport.net
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RP do you have a kit ready to bolt on? I have the plug and play ECU. If you have a efficient design and I can provide the ability to control the engine management what are we waiting for? Scott
08-21-2005, 10:38 PM
#2274
Kaiten Kenbu Rokuren
Originally Posted by MazsportScott
RP do you have a kit ready to bolt on? I have the plug and play ECU. If you have a efficient design and I can provide the ability to control the engine management what are we waiting for? Scott
08-21-2005, 11:03 PM
#2275
Registered
He likes the product but he doesn't want to spend $1600 just on engine management. He doesn't want a $7000 kit that gives 300 hp. He is searching for a cheaper alternative to include with his. It's nothing personal against your ecu so don't take it that way. When he gets the system mocked up on the car, you'll have to see if he'll sell you one without the engine management. I know you aren't terribly fond of superchargers but you might just like this one!