best turbo kits
08-17-2008, 04:04 PM
#126
Registered User
man i cant believe you are still here... common sense, you want common sense?
ask your self this: What makes a turbo kit BEST?
Your answer will be different than mine, and from CW's and from countless other people. Its called personal opinion and preference.
For me, i dont need shiny pipes, chrome, or a big front mount snail. I prefer to have everything hidden away and simple looking. Add quality parts and you have me Best kit.
for others its not the same.... your asking for common sense out one side of the mouth, while asking everyone to agree on preferential issues out the other.... idiot
why dont you just drop your sac already and tell us what YOU think is the best turbo kit setup, top to bottom... tell us how YOU would have designed one....
ask your self this: What makes a turbo kit BEST?
Your answer will be different than mine, and from CW's and from countless other people. Its called personal opinion and preference.
For me, i dont need shiny pipes, chrome, or a big front mount snail. I prefer to have everything hidden away and simple looking. Add quality parts and you have me Best kit.
for others its not the same.... your asking for common sense out one side of the mouth, while asking everyone to agree on preferential issues out the other.... idiot
why dont you just drop your sac already and tell us what YOU think is the best turbo kit setup, top to bottom... tell us how YOU would have designed one....
What makes the best kit? A personalized system that its perfectly suited for your individual needs. A daily driver, drag car, and autocrosser will all have different needs...why let someone else decide what they think you need? All while paying thousands extra......
If you are not competent enough to figure out what to buy for your personal needs, do you really think you are ready for a turbo? Sounds to me like you need to do a whole lotta research if thats the case.
And calm it down a few notches.
Last edited by Outkast187; 08-17-2008 at 04:09 PM.
08-17-2008, 04:14 PM
#128
My turbo does everything I want. Full boost before 3500rpm, the max power I want, and drives like an OEM turbo RX-8. Exactly what I wanted.
And mine wasn't really a kit, it was more pieced together and but it all works amazing. That's the whole theory with the MM/BHR kit; toss the crappy GReddy parts out and replaced them with better parts.
And mine wasn't really a kit, it was more pieced together and but it all works amazing. That's the whole theory with the MM/BHR kit; toss the crappy GReddy parts out and replaced them with better parts.
08-17-2008, 06:48 PM
#129
The think the point Outkast187 is trying to make is that you should not just buy a kit because someone says it is a good kit, you should know what you want and have a kit that meets your needs. I agree with that 100%.
Now another point he is trying to make is that you can save money by putting the kit togeather yourself. (I dont agree with this) but I guess if you dont have anything better to do with your time except search for what parts you want, then for the best price on each part, then the hard part of making them all fit togeather only to find out that you forgot a few things or some things did not fit. Then go back a repeat the needed steps all the while not having a car to drive.
If you have the time and fabrication skills, then go right ahead but for most people they would prefer to research the available kits and buy something that is proven to perform. If they want to save money they will install it themselves. I dont think you can save thousands of dollars by putting togeather your own kit. Maybe a few hundred here and there but you will spend a lot more time and time is money.
They have a term for what Outkast187 is suggesting, it is called "trying to re-invent the wheel" I am all about modifying the wheel to fit your needs or preference but in the end, both wheels will still be round and still role.
Now another point he is trying to make is that you can save money by putting the kit togeather yourself. (I dont agree with this) but I guess if you dont have anything better to do with your time except search for what parts you want, then for the best price on each part, then the hard part of making them all fit togeather only to find out that you forgot a few things or some things did not fit. Then go back a repeat the needed steps all the while not having a car to drive.
If you have the time and fabrication skills, then go right ahead but for most people they would prefer to research the available kits and buy something that is proven to perform. If they want to save money they will install it themselves. I dont think you can save thousands of dollars by putting togeather your own kit. Maybe a few hundred here and there but you will spend a lot more time and time is money.
They have a term for what Outkast187 is suggesting, it is called "trying to re-invent the wheel" I am all about modifying the wheel to fit your needs or preference but in the end, both wheels will still be round and still role.
08-17-2008, 07:03 PM
#130
Look...people...this is very simple...do the math, work within reason, and produce stable predictable results...
Oh and remember...people are stupid and they only THINK they know what they want...and most of the time they are wrong...
personal "meets and needs"...pffft....
try...this engine's "NEEDS"...as in...this engine works as designed a certain way...
go with the flow? dont cram a round cube into a square peg kinda stuff...
you want to add a snail to an engine...do the math...let the engine tell you...not the other way around...unless your going to start from the ground up...
08-17-2008, 07:18 PM
#131
Asshole for hire
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Yea....you need the stuff it comes with. You dont need the exact parts. Come on guys, lets show some common sense. Im guessing you bought a kit, so you are defending your purchase.
Lets do this...post the kit you prefer, and list EVERYTHING it comes with. We can decide from there. Before this thread turns into a useless heap of crap.
Lets do this...post the kit you prefer, and list EVERYTHING it comes with. We can decide from there. Before this thread turns into a useless heap of crap.
-be able to spool sub-3000rpms.
-be able to break the 300whp range without falling off
-include: turbo, manifold, downpipe, cold pipes, intercooler, intake (quality parts of course)
-include: injectors, Engine management, couplers, clamps, oil/water lines, fitting, vacuum line, etc(all the small stuff)
-Include: Nexus gauges, Profec II Spec B
-be able to break the 300whp range without falling off
-include: turbo, manifold, downpipe, cold pipes, intercooler, intake (quality parts of course)
-include: injectors, Engine management, couplers, clamps, oil/water lines, fitting, vacuum line, etc(all the small stuff)
-Include: Nexus gauges, Profec II Spec B
-its HARD to sell a kit with gauges, everyone has their own preference in them.
-realistically, most/all of the turbo kits out there now are capable of the same ranges of power, its just a matter of when do you want it spooled?
-Strange the above description, minus the gauges and choice in turbo (spool time), seems pretty much a good description of all the major players' kits...
What you're talking about it a custom turbo setup.... something that cant well be marketed, and which would by default no longer be custom if it was marketed with success
08-17-2008, 07:32 PM
#132
It's a marketable product when its not a "custom" affair...
Ask not what your doritos can do for you ask, what can I do for my doritos??
08-17-2008, 07:37 PM
#135
The driver either hit the brakes or the accelerator hard in the middle of the corner - if he could do that in a 4wd that is supposed to handle Imagine how easy it would have been for him to spin out in a 2wd RX8 with a fast spooling turbo .
Like you say - a good driver can handle it . To a bad driver - could be a weapon .
BTW - next time I came around an RX7 batman had smacked into the EVO and there was carnage ......
08-17-2008, 08:22 PM
#136
I just came back from 5 sessions at Pukekohe race track . Some guy in an Evo 8 MR spun out right in front of me -right in the middle of a sweeping right hander - could not believe my eyes as he was going slower than I was .
The driver either hit the brakes or the accelerator hard in the middle of the corner - if he could do that in a 4wd that is supposed to handle Imagine how easy it would have been for him to spin out in a 2wd RX8 with a fast spooling turbo .
Like you say - a good driver can handle it . To a bad driver - could be a weapon .
BTW - next time I came around an RX7 batman had smacked into the EVO and there was carnage ......
The driver either hit the brakes or the accelerator hard in the middle of the corner - if he could do that in a 4wd that is supposed to handle Imagine how easy it would have been for him to spin out in a 2wd RX8 with a fast spooling turbo .
Like you say - a good driver can handle it . To a bad driver - could be a weapon .
BTW - next time I came around an RX7 batman had smacked into the EVO and there was carnage ......
Were I shopping for a kit now, the questions I would ask are:
1. What is the build quality and history of the kit/vendor?
2. How is there customer service?
3. Can it accomplish your goals and yield a torque curve you are happy with?
I considered piecing together a custom turbo setup (with the help of a fabricator as I do not weld) and the cost in time and money versus buying an off the shelf unit was not favorable. That might, however, have more to do with my standards and expectations rather than what is and is not possible.
I must say I am amazed this post went more than 2 pages and ever evolved into a discussion.
08-17-2008, 10:20 PM
#139
Registered User
I pointed out, I built a custom kit at half the price and twice the power capability. I did not claim to make 700rwhp, didnt advise anyone to buy any specific kit...the only reason I gave ANY specs is because you asked for them.
The think the point Outkast187 is trying to make is that you should not just buy a kit because someone says it is a good kit, you should know what you want and have a kit that meets your needs. I agree with that 100%.
Now another point he is trying to make is that you can save money by putting the kit togeather yourself. (I dont agree with this) but I guess if you dont have anything better to do with your time except search for what parts you want, then for the best price on each part, then the hard part of making them all fit togeather only to find out that you forgot a few things or some things did not fit. Then go back a repeat the needed steps all the while not having a car to drive.
If you have the time and fabrication skills, then go right ahead but for most people they would prefer to research the available kits and buy something that is proven to perform. If they want to save money they will install it themselves. I dont think you can save thousands of dollars by putting togeather your own kit. Maybe a few hundred here and there but you will spend a lot more time and time is money.
They have a term for what Outkast187 is suggesting, it is called "trying to re-invent the wheel" I am all about modifying the wheel to fit your needs or preference but in the end, both wheels will still be round and still role.
Now another point he is trying to make is that you can save money by putting the kit togeather yourself. (I dont agree with this) but I guess if you dont have anything better to do with your time except search for what parts you want, then for the best price on each part, then the hard part of making them all fit togeather only to find out that you forgot a few things or some things did not fit. Then go back a repeat the needed steps all the while not having a car to drive.
If you have the time and fabrication skills, then go right ahead but for most people they would prefer to research the available kits and buy something that is proven to perform. If they want to save money they will install it themselves. I dont think you can save thousands of dollars by putting togeather your own kit. Maybe a few hundred here and there but you will spend a lot more time and time is money.
They have a term for what Outkast187 is suggesting, it is called "trying to re-invent the wheel" I am all about modifying the wheel to fit your needs or preference but in the end, both wheels will still be round and still role.
HHhmm makes ya think huh. Your last comment is what its all about. We can see what parts are in known kits, so we can easily look for better parts for certain needs.
How many guys are in the record books or winners circle running some generic kit on anything? Looks like these guys built the better mouse trap.
Its funny, I see name calling, rude remarks, and yet no lists of parts, no prices, and no performance #s saying I am wrong.
08-17-2008, 10:32 PM
#140
When have I suggested to ANYONE that they need the same setup I have?? I pointed out, I built a custom kit at half the price and twice the power capability. I did not claim to make 700rwhp, didnt advise anyone to buy any specific kit...the only reason I gave ANY specs is because you asked for them.
Right on the money. People sell what they CAN sell...be it availability, highest profit, and/or easiest to warranty. Trust me. I'm not selling anything, hell...I am showing a cheaper alternative. Is someone who claims I am dead wrong selling a kit for profit?? HHhmm makes ya think huh.
Your last comment is what its all about. We can see what parts are in known kits, so we can easily look for better parts for certain needs.
How many guys are in the record books or winners circle running some generic kit on anything? Looks like these guys built the better mouse trap.
Its funny, I see name calling, rude remarks, and yet no lists of parts, no prices, and no performance #s saying I am wrong.
I pointed out, I built a custom kit at half the price and twice the power capability. I did not claim to make 700rwhp, didnt advise anyone to buy any specific kit...the only reason I gave ANY specs is because you asked for them. Right on the money. People sell what they CAN sell...be it availability, highest profit, and/or easiest to warranty. Trust me. I'm not selling anything, hell...I am showing a cheaper alternative. Is someone who claims I am dead wrong selling a kit for profit??
HHhmm makes ya think huh. Your last comment is what its all about. We can see what parts are in known kits, so we can easily look for better parts for certain needs.
How many guys are in the record books or winners circle running some generic kit on anything? Looks like these guys built the better mouse trap.
Its funny, I see name calling, rude remarks, and yet no lists of parts, no prices, and no performance #s saying I am wrong.
you made a custom turbo for your car. you have fabrication skills.
99% of us out here do not have these skills.
so are options are a kit.
the only one i know that will adjust hot and cold sides is mazsport. i could be wrong. as i have no skills at all. i just read.
i really dont understand what you are getting at. 99% dont have the skills that you have, but you what to say everyone else is wrong, you are right.
so are you going to open up a tech school?
is that the point?if it were easy every one would have done it.
beers
08-17-2008, 10:32 PM
#141
I've completely lost track of what the hell you are trying to say.
What is your point, exactly?
You do know those cars in record books cost 50X what anyone else here will ever spend on their entire car, right? And that those kits are specifically tailored to breaking their respective records.
What is your point, exactly?
You do know those cars in record books cost 50X what anyone else here will ever spend on their entire car, right? And that those kits are specifically tailored to breaking their respective records.
08-17-2008, 10:43 PM
#142
I've completely lost track of what the hell you are trying to say.
What is your point, exactly?
You do know those cars in record books cost 50X what anyone else here will ever spend on their entire car, right? And that those kits are specifically tailored to breaking their respective records.
What is your point, exactly?
You do know those cars in record books cost 50X what anyone else here will ever spend on their entire car, right? And that those kits are specifically tailored to breaking their respective records.
i wish i had those mad skillz! but i did, but not the equipment..
beers
08-17-2008, 11:03 PM
#144
A) You need intercooler piping and maybe some intake piping.
B) Fuel pump, primary and secondary injectors
C) Ignition coils
Without B and C, your system will be capped in the low 300 whp range running maybe 8 psi. A 1.5 pressure ratio doesn't even touch the second tier island of the GT4088 compressor map. Secondly, regardless of your tuning, even an adiabatic compression of your intake charge coming in at ambient at the TB would eventually lead to auto-ignition without hot spots. So, it's reasonable to think you might want to get into meth/water injection north of 400 whp.
Say you go:
management - 500
manifold - 500
bov + WG - 400
pipes - 1000
IC - 300
FP - 200
injectors - 400
coils - 300
turbo - 1000
couplers/fittings/etc - 500
That's $5100 with prices that aren't high. You can probably get a turbo for less, but the piping/manifold would be more. This somewhat assumes you aren't doing the cutting/welding yourself. This is all engineered by yourself with you as the sole person responsible for the result with no test case for reference. For a lot of people, going from $4500-$5000 in parts to $6000-$6500 with design already accounted for is a deal. If I were to design a kit and bill myself engineering/fab time, it would be WAY cheaper to buy a kit. The one nice thing about designing a kit is if you are knowledgeable enough to identify where the kits you look at cut a corner to remain cost effective, you can make that change. There is nothing inherently wrong with designing your own custom solution. It is just a matter of having the capabilities and will to do it.
08-18-2008, 06:13 AM
#145
That's why I work...to pay someone else to do the crap I dont feel like doing...
08-18-2008, 09:47 AM
#146
Registered User
As far as fabrication goes, its really alot easier than you guys think. I think its a dark area for alot of people, and if you actually looked at a few systems you could build it from scratch fairly easy. The piping is a easy place to save money. If you can weld aluminum(tall order I know) you can build nearly anything, and better than any kit. You can still just use couplers and make just about anything. Just dont buy thin garbage....2mm is a good thickness for most applications.
08-18-2008, 11:45 AM
#147
127653
Thats certainly one way to look at it. And not a thing wrong with that. I certainly take that approach on certain things, it makes the world go round.
As far as fabrication goes, its really alot easier than you guys think. I think its a dark area for alot of people, and if you actually looked at a few systems you could build it from scratch fairly easy. The piping is a easy place to save money. If you can weld aluminum(tall order I know) you can build nearly anything, and better than any kit. You can still just use couplers and make just about anything. Just dont buy thin garbage....2mm is a good thickness for most applications.
As far as fabrication goes, its really alot easier than you guys think. I think its a dark area for alot of people, and if you actually looked at a few systems you could build it from scratch fairly easy. The piping is a easy place to save money. If you can weld aluminum(tall order I know) you can build nearly anything, and better than any kit. You can still just use couplers and make just about anything. Just dont buy thin garbage....2mm is a good thickness for most applications.
So...if I WERE to fabricate my own setup...and use good parts...and properly design it...and then get some pretty sweet deals on the parts...I would save a whole what...$500 - $1000 bucks???
I use the BHR kit as the only true entry-level "turn-key kit"...as the Greedy one is simply flaky at best...
I'd rather just use that time to do something else...its simply not worth redoing the work I would have done myself...only to save $1k max...
Now if it was like $5k...that would be different....
08-19-2008, 12:23 AM
#148
Life begins @ 30 psi
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I can't fabricate a damn thing... if I tried to fabricate couplers, or god forbid a manifold I would end up welding something to my own face in all likelyhood. I seriously don't mind buying a kit other people have actually tested before jamming it in my car. I probably speak for the majority in this too...
If you can fab your own components, thats cool man, I seriously don't disagree with what you are saying, I just disagree for me. I think a lot of the bitter comments resulted from the Rx7 talk earlier which just don't apply to the Rx8 as the car is a whole different beast.
If you can fab your own components, thats cool man, I seriously don't disagree with what you are saying, I just disagree for me. I think a lot of the bitter comments resulted from the Rx7 talk earlier which just don't apply to the Rx8 as the car is a whole different beast.
08-19-2008, 01:40 AM
#149
Destroying Threads
08-19-2008, 01:58 AM
#150
Fabricating can be more difficult than it looks. Making a weld that holds up to potential 2000F exhaust gas temperatures is no small task.
The biggest pain in constructing your own kit isn't welding, it's the time and pain it takes to test fit everything, measure, mess it up, and make another one. I speak from experience.
But for some people that's half the fun, I know, because it is for me. But most people (read: 98%) want to buy a kit and slap it on. You know how much people bitch and whine when a part is a hair off from fitting perfect.
When you buy a kit you aren't just paying for hardware. You are paying for the fabrication time, the research and development time to make sure the kit performs as advertised, and that it fits. Most people are willing to pay for a profit margin.
The biggest pain in constructing your own kit isn't welding, it's the time and pain it takes to test fit everything, measure, mess it up, and make another one. I speak from experience.
But for some people that's half the fun, I know, because it is for me. But most people (read: 98%) want to buy a kit and slap it on. You know how much people bitch and whine when a part is a hair off from fitting perfect.
When you buy a kit you aren't just paying for hardware. You are paying for the fabrication time, the research and development time to make sure the kit performs as advertised, and that it fits. Most people are willing to pay for a profit margin.