Engine rebuild:esmeril, ported, dowl pinned.
08-25-2009 | 04:56 AM
#26
#50
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,521
Likes: 11
From: Caput Mundi
Axles i think 
Good setup suay, keep up the good work!
What are your goals?
Anyway, something i hate about 13b-msp porting are the intake ports interiors. You really need to do a good job filling and reshaping the horrible interiors to further increase flow. I usually do the above mentioned oil system work and at times i smooth some of the ugly spots in the water pump housing. It probably won't do much but while you're there...
Good setup suay, keep up the good work!
What are your goals?
Anyway, something i hate about 13b-msp porting are the intake ports interiors. You really need to do a good job filling and reshaping the horrible interiors to further increase flow. I usually do the above mentioned oil system work and at times i smooth some of the ugly spots in the water pump housing. It probably won't do much but while you're there...
Last edited by bse50; 08-25-2009 at 05:04 AM.
08-25-2009 | 10:44 AM
#28
Tailgaters beware
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 494
Likes: 2
From: Ona, WV
08-25-2009 | 02:19 PM
#31
I will say that their is an engine here in AZ that had a serious issue above 500 WHP.
This problem is something that everyone has overlooked. Including myself.
08-25-2009 | 04:04 PM
#34
why not just blert it out , does it need to be a secret ?
08-25-2009 | 04:30 PM
#36
He has mine too...
I have ran at 500whp for a considerable amount of time and haven't ran into any other issues...at least not with the engine.
I have also been involved with two other engines in PR that are in the range also, one in a race car and one in a road driven RX-8...(and the race car one is above 600whp)
Unless its an issue with the drivetrain (which are documented) I have not ran into any other issues with the engine once you dowel pin it and add the apex seals...it pretty much takes everything I can send its way up to the limit of my fuel system.
My injectors are good to about 550whp and my fuel pumps are good to 720whp
Chris
p.s. the OEM intake mani can reach 500whp...like Charles said, it does nothing but hold the boost which it can. The power band just doesn't stretch as high as the OEM one because the intake many becomes a restriction.
I have ran at 500whp for a considerable amount of time and haven't ran into any other issues...at least not with the engine.
I have also been involved with two other engines in PR that are in the range also, one in a race car and one in a road driven RX-8...(and the race car one is above 600whp)
Unless its an issue with the drivetrain (which are documented) I have not ran into any other issues with the engine once you dowel pin it and add the apex seals...it pretty much takes everything I can send its way up to the limit of my fuel system.
My injectors are good to about 550whp and my fuel pumps are good to 720whp
Chris
p.s. the OEM intake mani can reach 500whp...like Charles said, it does nothing but hold the boost which it can. The power band just doesn't stretch as high as the OEM one because the intake many becomes a restriction.
08-25-2009 | 04:56 PM
#38
We have been crazy busy lately.
As you might or might not know, most of my work background has been in Medical Devices even though my degree is in Mechanical Engineering. Many of the metallurgical and manufacturing processes are the same as the automotive/aerospace industry or any other industry for that matter (albeit, with much more quality control) because we are still basically just making parts out of the usual materials (Stainless steels/Plastics...with some exceptions of course).
Esmeril Racing is part of Esmeril Industries LLC which manufactures medical/aerospace devices and provides process development services and we have been very busy with that part of the business.
Bottom line is...I want a dyno as much as you guys. I also want to make sure everything is perfect so I don't waste our time since it has taken so long to have a free day to go to the dyno. Right now my APV is closed permanently until I hook up my new actuator circuit. Once I do that, I will bring it in and get you some numbers.
Best regards,
Chris
08-25-2009 | 07:06 PM
#39
I just got off the phone with a friend of mine discussing the a fore mentioned issue I brought up. Well due to contractual obligations he has with Mazda he can not allow me to elaborate on this.
He told me he would have to kill me. JK
Let's just say that there are differences in the 13B eccentric shaft and the Renesis eccentric shaft.
The differences make the Renesis shaft a not so wanted piece in High HP, High Torque applications in my opinion.
This is all I can say. I wish I could say what I know. But I told my friend I would not elaborate.
He told me he would have to kill me. JK
Let's just say that there are differences in the 13B eccentric shaft and the Renesis eccentric shaft.
The differences make the Renesis shaft a not so wanted piece in High HP, High Torque applications in my opinion.
This is all I can say. I wish I could say what I know. But I told my friend I would not elaborate.
08-25-2009 | 07:37 PM
#41
I just got off the phone with a friend of mine discussing the a fore mentioned issue I brought up. Well due to contractual obligations he has with Mazda he can not allow me to elaborate on this.
He told me he would have to kill me. JK
Let's just say that there are differences in the 13B eccentric shaft and the Renesis eccentric shaft.
The differences make the Renesis shaft a not so wanted piece in High HP, High Torque applications in my opinion.
This is all I can say. I wish I could say what I know. But I told my friend I would not elaborate.
He told me he would have to kill me. JK
Let's just say that there are differences in the 13B eccentric shaft and the Renesis eccentric shaft.
The differences make the Renesis shaft a not so wanted piece in High HP, High Torque applications in my opinion.
This is all I can say. I wish I could say what I know. But I told my friend I would not elaborate.
You are being more secretive than you need to be, however, Erick, this person has talked about this at length before (not here)
08-25-2009 | 08:30 PM
#42
Thread Starter
Work hard Drive Hard!
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
From: south texas
Ahh!
Chris should pull that "dirty harry" pistol, meaning the intake manifold on the "project rx8". I bet that would go really well with this setup. I am running the stage three from mazsport and of course the coils from esmeril since we all know the mazposrt coils were bad
. Any who I thank you all for your support.
SWAY
. Any who I thank you all for your support. SWAY
08-25-2009 | 08:50 PM
#44
Then spit it out Dave if you know it all.
Last edited by Easy_E1; 08-25-2009 at 08:52 PM.
08-25-2009 | 08:57 PM
#45
Thread Starter
Work hard Drive Hard!
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
From: south texas
hahaha. No Sh*t the turbo had no name on it I felt jipped as many others did. Bought a much better one though. Yeah dave spit it out. As far as numbers (bse 50) I would like 450 (max) with no problems!
Last edited by suay; 08-25-2009 at 09:00 PM.
08-25-2009 | 09:15 PM
#46
As I said before Dave I'm not talking about Boxcars engine. All I am saying is that are differences in the Renesis and the 13B eccentric shafts. Which make the Renesis eccentric shaft weaker. And more prone to bending under high HP applications.
Then spit it out Dave if you know it all.
Then spit it out Dave if you know it all.
I'm talking about an engine Glen build for a different customer that used an RX-8 e-shaft and was bent out of spec at 550-rwhp.
Glen talked about this on a different forum, so that's why I don't get the secretiveness...
Originally Posted by glenrx7
do not use an 8 shaft for high power turbo engines.....You will be rebuilding it quickly....I am in a rush and have like 50 pms to return so after that I will post my experience
Originally Posted by glenrx7
Well first I have been building rotary engines for a long time....
I built a 13b rew for a customer of ours at AZRR, his original had spun a bearing and the shaft was toast. So after some long nights talking to Maada Na engineers it looks like the 8 shaft was built in the same way as the third gen shaft. I had finite element data, mazda engineering data basically telling me that the shaft was built just as strong as the third gen..........
Dyno day come and we are hitting some pretty bad *** numbers right off the bat about 420 with 300+ foot pound with low boost about 13psi, out of the blue we loose 20% across the board. So I go to work checking spark and just about every thing, things get worse as we drive it then I start feeling it in the clutch bam it stops running. Take it apart and we have a bent shaft about .006 of an inch out at the front. This caused the engine to eat it self alive.
So, I went to the long task of figuring out why...so far what I can come up with, is there is an important tempering process that was not performed on these shafts for what I think is cost. the tempering alows the metal to deform and spring back this did not, it deformed and stayed there.
What is its limits, I am not sure but putting any kinda stress on these would scare me. So I will never build a turbo engine with this shaft again.
I built a 13b rew for a customer of ours at AZRR, his original had spun a bearing and the shaft was toast. So after some long nights talking to Maada Na engineers it looks like the 8 shaft was built in the same way as the third gen shaft. I had finite element data, mazda engineering data basically telling me that the shaft was built just as strong as the third gen..........
Dyno day come and we are hitting some pretty bad *** numbers right off the bat about 420 with 300+ foot pound with low boost about 13psi, out of the blue we loose 20% across the board. So I go to work checking spark and just about every thing, things get worse as we drive it then I start feeling it in the clutch bam it stops running. Take it apart and we have a bent shaft about .006 of an inch out at the front. This caused the engine to eat it self alive.
So, I went to the long task of figuring out why...so far what I can come up with, is there is an important tempering process that was not performed on these shafts for what I think is cost. the tempering alows the metal to deform and spring back this did not, it deformed and stayed there.
What is its limits, I am not sure but putting any kinda stress on these would scare me. So I will never build a turbo engine with this shaft again.
Originally Posted by glenrx7
Nothing over 8k, here is the deal my man. It being harder is the issue. If you have a hardened piece of metal you need to temper it in order for it to be able to have "memory" with out memory it will bend and stay that way. Tempering will soften it in comparison to a non tempered hardened shaft.
Shaft deformation is something that is natural and will happen.
Look, I dont want to brag or try and make my self look great or anything like that I try and stay humble, to help you out let me give you a little background info.
I was trained to build the top racing rotary engines by Paul Yaw of Yawpower. I built all the engines that came out of his shop for the last 6years or so. Paul moved on to motec and injectors so no more engines, He helped Tom and I start azrotaryrockets.
We are also "sponsored" if you will by Mazda, i act as tech support for there rotary team and motor sports team.....
After coming from Yaw Mazda came with us, they send us project and customers, so I would say we know a little about this subject.
So take my word or dont ...I was aiming to help thats all....Good luck.
Shaft deformation is something that is natural and will happen.
Look, I dont want to brag or try and make my self look great or anything like that I try and stay humble, to help you out let me give you a little background info.
I was trained to build the top racing rotary engines by Paul Yaw of Yawpower. I built all the engines that came out of his shop for the last 6years or so. Paul moved on to motec and injectors so no more engines, He helped Tom and I start azrotaryrockets.
We are also "sponsored" if you will by Mazda, i act as tech support for there rotary team and motor sports team.....
After coming from Yaw Mazda came with us, they send us project and customers, so I would say we know a little about this subject.
So take my word or dont ...I was aiming to help thats all....Good luck.
Originally Posted by glenrx7
Now if the shaft is bent .006 it is out of :mazdaspec" by .0045.
The shaft being bent .006 at one point of the shaft would give you a diameter of .012 meaning the shaft is digging .006 all the way around pushing the rotor out of place destroying the bearing etc.
The shaft being bent .006 at one point of the shaft would give you a diameter of .012 meaning the shaft is digging .006 all the way around pushing the rotor out of place destroying the bearing etc.
Here is the thread:
http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ead.php?t=8249
I also talked to Glen in person about it at last years SevenStock
08-25-2009 | 09:35 PM
#48
Well then Glen has a bad memory. He told me today that what we discussed he would prefer to not bring out in public.
So I'm glad you could enlighten us Dave. I'll have to remind Glen what he said in his thread.
So I'm glad you could enlighten us Dave. I'll have to remind Glen what he said in his thread.
08-25-2009 | 09:41 PM
#50
Original Turbo 'd Auto !!
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
Likes: 4
From: Surprise, Arizona
