It would be great if someone could provide a good explain of what the Emanage does to provide tuning. I mean I know how a car normally operates with open-loop/closed-loop modes and the use of MAPS and all, although maybe this could be explained for others.

But what is the emanage doing. How does it modify open-loop/closed loop modes. I had it explained to me that for the emanage to properly tune, three black boxes are needed. What are these. What does the open-loop dongle do? What sensors does it use to tune AFR with? Etc.

 

The E-manage can be set up to modify many things. In normal NA mode...most are adjusting MAF values to lean out the pig rich open loop areas of the stock maps. As well the ignition timing is adjusted to try and tune for better power and response.

In turbo applications the tuning is more to add fuel in boosted areas...and to fool the PM into letting you do that without tripping fuel trims in the closed loop areas that are under positive pressure. That is what the one dongle box was trying to do...it tricked the ECT sensor into thinking the car was cold...and would then run in open loop where the e-manage could add fuel without the fuel trims being tripped. It doesn't seem to work on all cars though.....some have removed it and found it works better.

The other box is the one that allows the RPM signal to the e-manage to work. If you are running ignition changes...the signal to the coils from the e-manage needs to be conditioned to bring it into line with the stock pulse...so it doesn't overload the coils and destroy them..."the third box"

 

The Greddy E-Manage, while primarily a "piggy-back" type of device, employs many programmable direct control features similar to many stand alone devices.
The primary function that the E-Manage provides is to intercept and modify the air-low meter signal. This is used to spoof the factory ECU into changing its fueling and timing values. Hoever, for forced induction purposes, this is actually the least useful function of the E-Manage.
The E-Manage has the ability to directly increase the duty cycle of the fuel injectors and advance or retard the ignition timing relative to manifold pressure, RPM and throttle postion in any combination. It can also directly control additional injectors.
In the case of the Greddy Turbo Kit, by use of some tricky wiring, it uses the primary 2 injectors of the RX-8 as independant injectors for much of the power range as well as using the traditional "additional" injection duty cycle manipulation.
The control of the open vs closed loop scenarios is done using one of the plastic boxes you are talking about. It alters the water temp signal at specific load points using one of the E-Manage programmable outputs. This scheme often does not work properly on some RX-8s and has been , at my suggestions at any rate, been abandonded by some woth success.
The other "black box" that is included in the Greddy TK is an RPM converter that supplies the proper number of ignition pulses to the RPM input on the E-Manage.
The E-Manage does not have an inherent "self-tune" capability, so it does not tune to a target A/F. The MAP values were arrived at by tuning using an independant WBO2S.

 

In a nutshell, the emanage adjusts the MAF voltage to make the computer think more or less air is entering the engine, therefore richening/leaning the A/F mix. Now, as I understand it, the way Greddy adjusts the A/F in areas that would normally be closed loop is by tricking the engine's temp sensor into telling the ECU that the engine is in permanent warm-up mode where the engine runs in open rather than closed loop. Thats what I believe that open-dongle does.

 

It can do this, but it does not in the Greddy Turbo Kit.

Unfortunately, there is no "third box" as yet. This functin needs to be done on an as-nneded basis.
The Greddy Turbo Kit does not modify ignition timing, so it is not necessary to condition the coil trigger signal.

 

That's why the "third box" was in brackets.

Cheers

Dan

 

PTP told me it is the lack of this third box that is causing them to have to use the expensive Tek3 computer instead of the e-manage. Will this third box be made available at any point? Would it better the turbo kit in any way?

So when using the emanage, does the ECU ever go into closed loop?

 

The circuit is very easy to fab...its a few resistors and diodes. MM has the circuit on one of his old posts. Itg will correct both the RPM signal and the coil safe output.

The PCM runs in closed loop below about 5500RPM with provisions...ie it is different in different gears, and loads It stays closed in 1st up to 6300 RPM's sometimes...and drops below 5500 in higher gears. This is what causes the most problems with tuning as the open loop transistion changes...and the LTFT get tripped in some places if you tune too low.

 

Why not just run open loop using the preset maps all the time?

 

I guess what you mean is "can" you run open loop all the time. That is what a stand alone system like a Haltech or a Motec would do. The only problem is that the PCM in the 8 runs fly by wire thottle, ABS, DSC, TC, all the intake tract valves etc.

So far the stand alones can not integrate with the other systems.....so you loose a lot of the car.

So at present we are stuck with piggybacks and dealing with the stock PCM...hopefully soon someone will crack it and we will be able to alter the maps on the stock PCM to do what we want ( dreamin :D)

 

For those who have the Greddy turbo and are tired of these problems that seem to pop-up, Can we just buy another ECU like TSI, Haltech or etc. and tune our cars from that, Since we don't have much control over the greddy ecu..

 

Why not use the same trick and keep telling the ECU the engine is cold so it stays in open loop.

 

The stock PCM is the problem...too integrated in the car to remove. The problem with fooling the car into thinking it's cold is that it is designed to run in safe mode that pulls power till it warms up.....what else it effects is anyones guess...therefore until we can totally understand the stock PCM...all we can do is try and trick it...or bypass it and try to get it to think everything is OK so it doesn't screw up the other systems that it integrates with

Easier said than done. People much smarter than me are working on it...I wish them luck

 

Well does the TSI,Haltech, Motec operate the same as Greddy does, and if they do wouldn't we be better with one of those since they can handle ignition timing and Greddy's does not..

 

Greddy can handle some of the timing. It will not alter the L/T split...but it will adjust the timing. All options are still a compromise.........cost, features, options all differ...the stock PCM still is the bottleneck

 

This is a very good point, however, if the PCM pulls power when warming up, I want to know if it pulls the sme amount the whole time its warming up, or, if it gradually adds power back right up to the point where it switches into closed loop mode.

If it adds power back gradually, then all we need to do is find the point right before it switches over (for example, if warmed up temp is 185f, then we hold the temp at 184f) to closed loop, and hold it there. Sure there might be some power loss, but it would be negligable, and we could get it back in spades with the ability to tune over the full rpm band.

 

wouldnt it be better to just tune the car rather than trick it?

 

Yes. The E-Manage does that, too.

I'm not using any of the Greddy black boxes with my E-Manage on my home-built turbo system and I have no problems whatsoever.

 

Nice explanation guys :D even i understand it i think :D


cheers
michael

 

If I understand it correctly the reason that most tuning shops using the standalones are not removing the factory ECU. They are just removing the controls from the stock ecu and using stand alone to control it. That way the stock ECU just hums along getting all the input, but the output to the engine is completely controlled by the standalone. Yummy!


Slavearm

 

i meant like in the old days but really would like to just be able to adjust the pcm directly instead of thru other means.

 

MM,

How did you tune your turbo kit during closed loop operation without kicking off the LTF (long term fuel trim)? Or did you just let the ECU go hog wild and adjust while in closed loop?

Slave

 

I basically ignore what the PCM does.
First of all, I am not doing any AFM adjustments, so there is little relearning on the PCM's part.
Second, most of the fueling changes are in boost which is mostly in open-loop anyway.

I just did some math first to figure out how much fuel I needed and where. I used these calculations to make a set of "theoretical" MAPs and then I just did runs with the WBO2S until I liked what I saw more often than not.

If the PCM wants to run more lean in a spot where it shouldn't really be in closed-loop, so be it. Since it is smart enough to figure out to use less fuel, it is also smart enough to figure out when it is too lean. There are spots where the PCM will suddenly go to stoich or slightly richer under boost, but these are all at RPM levels well under the torque peak where there would be problems.