MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Sure it does. Those are the descending numbers in gray radiating from the middle.

Lol.

Autorotor is Lysholm. I'm not sure where this idea comes from that they are different.
Opcon owns Autorotor which is a division that has two parts: Part one makes fuel cells and part two, Lysholm Technologies Group, is the subdivision of Autorotor that makes twin-screw blowers. Lysholm and Autorotor are one in the same.

Red Devil

Rather than get caught in your apparent need to clarify why you posted the incorrect map, applied it to Pettit and passed that off...instead, I think I'll go straight to the source and quote a Lysholm engineer from my emails with him:

Based on your estimated maximum flow I agree that either the LYS1600AX or OA417 are the best option. The 1600AX is the Lysholm type with cast housing while the 417 is of the OA-style with extruded housing.

Unfortunately we lack accurate and comparable performance data on the OA branch of products as they are a separate company, but I have enclosed the performance map on the 1600AX. We have a project running where we aim to present all our products in the same fashion. If you would like to see the OA line to decide which you would like to purchase I will put you in touch with their engineers. The performance map for the OA 417 while similar does perform differently.

In regard to intercooling. Laminova is a different company like our association with Autorotor. If you like I will get you a contact for them also.

Three different companies, three different engineers I was put in contact with through Opcon.

Red Devil

Edit: As for Cam's comment about not needing the boost up top...I think my jaw must have dropped when I heard that. It floored me why we wouldn't want steady boost acroos the entire rev range and the kit - back then - would be designed otherwise...

morkusyambo

The reason I keep asking about exceeding the redline is I don't like being told I can't do something simply based off a company's recommendations. Untill someone can show me hard data that running a blower above the recommended redline makes negligible gains in power and will most likely result in making it blow up(the blower, not the motor) I will not believe something simply based on popular opinion.

BTW Red Devil, this isn't directed at anyone in particular; I just want to clarify why i''m asking these questions. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to push 14+psi in my daily driven car, but if I were building a race car I wouldn't hesitate to spin the twin-screw 20k+ rpm because i've seen and know it has been done before.

morkusyambo

Hmm. I wonder if there are any mods we could do to the blower to make the boost a bit more steady??

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

what are they Charles ? heh

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Cool - can't understand why do didn't just say that in the first place ....

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Yes - looking forward to doing business with you myself

nelsonrx8

Charles R. Hill I trust u all the way

hope everything works out for ya. And hurry up with the nitrous accessories!!!!!!

Red Devil

Hey, if you've got the penchant at whatever point to get a different pulley and crank the boost, I'm sure you'll get your answer...also, regarding oil supply from what I said earlier, another excerpt from my emails with Lysholm (I didn't save all of them, just a few, so I'll look if I have the one where the engineer commented on the rpms of the SC in context of durability/NVH/etc...):

For both units self contained lube is the primary option, but if the unit runs to hard i.e. the oil temperature goes to high you need to opt for pressurized lubrication. The best way to find out is to monitor the oil temperature. The limit varies with the oil, but I use to say that if you go over 130ºC you shall consider pressurised lubrication – over 140ºC you need it. To be safe if not to difficult always run pressurised lubrication.

The Lysholm units contains a little bit more oil and would therefore permit a little bit harder life than the Autorotor before pressurised lube is needed.

There are no other maintenance than changing the oil at approx the same intervals as for the engine (meaning that you often changes oil more often in a high performance engine – so on a high performance application you shall also change the S/C oil more often).

morkusyambo

Cool. Did Lysholm mention anything else in regards to running the unit hard besides a pressurized lubrication setup??

Red Devil

I tried to attach a file, not sure if it made it or not...basically a few equations - they're industry standard, but I think address some of what you're getting at with efficiencies and such...the guy sent it as informational with 1600AX map that MM already put up...I checked to see if I still have the Autorotor 417 map, as that also matched my goals of running around ~8psi, as I recall, but must have erased it with most of the other emails. Everything is from more than 1.5 years ago when I was about to pull the trigger and do this setup custom (I didn't do it simply because I wanted reflash management - aka the Accessport).

Other things off the top of my head that I've already stated was the lower the rpms, the less stresses and more reliable the unit will be...kind of an obvious point. But there also is the benefit of less noise/vibration/harshness - also due to such NVH issues I was strongly cautioned to only use air to water intercoolers.

My impression was, of course, anything up to their redline is perfectly fine, but to size larger to hit higher targeted boost is always the way to go.

What I found was no matter what size you went with you can attain a sweet spot range of say like 4psi - like one was good from 4-8, another like 10-14, etc...and anything outside that you of course can size a pulley for, but you will sacrifice efficiency. Unfortunately, most of those conversations I've erased by now. I'm kind of surprised I still had left what I've posted in this thread in italics.

rotarygod

There are maximum recommended speed ratings for a reason. It's because some engineer over there has found a safe reliable max speed based on a number of factors such as rotor clearances, lubrication, and bearing life. I do the exact same thing at work with mud pumps for oil drilling. I and another forum member are the engineering department. We design and build our pumps for a certain use. Can you physically exceed them? Yes. Will you get the performance or life expectancy out of it if you do? I guarantee you will not!

If running it higher than rated speed is simply due to a complex of not wanting to be told you can't, I think priorities in design are a bit mixed up. The reason a speed rating is there is because of many things. On a blower one of the biggest reasons is that you are out of it's efficiency range and have hit and area of severely diminishing returns. You will get to a point very quickly where you'd make just as much or more power spinning it slower. That's why the rated max speed is where it is. The fact that bearing stresses go up with the square of rpm rise should also be noted.

If you feel you need to run a blower faster than rated, what is actually happening is that you need to use a larger blower. It's no more complex than that. If you overspin it just because you can, someday you'll end up proving to some engineer somewhere that people really are stupid because they can't follow directions. I see it all the time and we always laugh at them. Everyone thinks the same way and everyone gets the same overall result. It's engineered to a certain spec for a reason. Go outside of it and you'll eventually at some point pay for it.

Phil's 8

iTrader: (3)

I have been seeing some slippage as well as belt wear. I keep setting the tension on the belt but have been wondering if all that tension is putting a strain on my pulleys. Am I just overly worried or could all that tension be cause for concern?

qtwre

iTrader: (1)

Mr. Hill, will the ensuring of no slippage be through use of a wider belt? The fact that Pettit uses a 4-rib is kind of off putting to me.

*Fun fact. The Corvette ZR1 uses an 11-rib belt. Ooo Ahh!

Red Devil

Do you guys have both a tensioner and an idler pulley?

Red Devil

Fair enough...on general principles I can think of 3 to 4 things off the top of my head...but since I don't have this setup I suppose I can be more than patient to see what you're up to.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

What?!? You're gonna make it stick out of the hood?!?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

is the TOOTH fairy going to visit ?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Mmmmm. Ribs.

morkusyambo

RG, I appreciate what you, MM, and Red Devil are saying. I allready stated I have no intentions of going above 14+ psi with my blower.

I also understand that you cannot change a person's opinion through a discussion. The bottom line is(IMHO), untill there is proof that the blower makes insignificant boost above its rated rpm limit, and that the life expectancy is dramatically reduced, everything is conjecture and "opinion."

rotarygod

In my case and I'm sure theirs as well as with most serious companies that design and build mechanical products, what you interpret as opinion is probably in all reality verification of strength by finite element analysis and mathematical computations. In the case of what I do, we design around a safety factor. Not from the standpoint that we think they'll fail if you go over. It is based on several things and not just rpm but also potential cavitation (as seen as decreasing pumping ability above a certain rpm due to cavitation), bearing stresses, heat generation, etc. The safety factor helps us determine a rated lifespan at rated power. A map is a pretty good indication of where efficiency drops off and no one designs a blower of any kind that drops off before it hits it's rated max speed. That would be a design failure. When you think about it, I design pumps. Superchargers are also nothing more than pumps. Many of our design goals are the same. The difference being size and material being moved. Basically what I'm saying is that if you feel it comes down to their recommendation "opinion" or your gut feeling, odds are you are the one that is wrong. I understand you probably don't intend to do this but ratings are there because someone knows more about their product than you do. In the case of our pumps, it is proprietary information that we don't release to the public.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I presume you mean 14k RPM. Do the math on 14 PSI with that blower. I think you will understand the correction.

So, you are saying that you don't trust the Swedes that actually designed and built your blower?

morkusyambo

Nope. I meant @14psi, not 14k RPM. No need for a correction.

It's not about trust. BTW, like Red Devil, I also know someone in the industry. In my case its someone who has 40+ years of (street cars, dirt tracks, drag racing, road racing, endurance racing, top-fuel boat racing, top-fuel drag racing, NASCAR, F-4 Phantom propulsion systems engineer, you name it) experience, and Sprintex requested this same person to be the lead developer of their blower kits.

Why is sprintex relevant??

Because the castings for ALL current twin-screw blowers came from 2 men. They sold their design to sprintex. When sprintex temporarily went out of business, they sold it to Opcon. They had a falling out with Opcon, then sold it to Lysholm.

All of the companies producing screws are using the SAME technology. The only differences are in materials, appearance, and historical propaganda.

This same engineer has designed, installed, and put these different twin-screws through absolute hell, to include @25k rpms on a DAILY driven street car.

IF anything broke, I assure you the blower was not the weak link. These thing are a lot stronger than you give them credit for.

I'm not trying to tell you, or anyone else that I am 100%, unequivicolly, without a shadow-of-a-doubt correct. I'm not going to try and make you see things my way.

Please, find the documentation of what you are telling us is fact, and share with all of us.

I will go on the record as saying I could be mistaken about all of this.

Will you??

morkusyambo

In the case of proprietary information, I understand. See my last post to MM.