eastcoastrotary

what thread(s) are you referring to? i hope they don't discontinue the s/c; it seems to have been very well received.

another caveat with the pettit kit: the reflashing of the stock ECU. is the kit still compatible with an Int-X? i read a thread where it was discussed, but i think it was before the kit's actual release. ultimately, i'd like to be able to modify the engine timing myself and i'm not sure (correct me if i'm wrong) how that works with the stock ECU setup.

i read the thread and it had some of great info. the mazsport kit dyno posted is type I, though. what about the numbers for type II and III? i've searched and could only find a dyno for type III ("slavearm's mazsport turbo kit dyno"), which has some good information. do you guys think that the type II would make that much more power with its shorter tubing and snazzy liquid-to-air intercooler? enough to justify $1500? just a thought.

i almost feel that the mazsport kits, or at least the size of the turbo used, are almost TOO much, particularly given their price. i'd prefer a beautifully delivered, reasonably reliable 300rwhp to a rough, prone to failure 380rwhp (i really would). on the other hand, a very conservative tune on a mazsport kit might accomplish all goals if the response/spool up time is nice and quick. any thoughts?

eastcoastrotary

EDIT: the thread i discussed from Falken's post contains the dyno for the mazsport type III kit, not the type I kit. however, the type I kit dyno is (I think) on this post:

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/dyno-comparison-rx-8-turbo-supercharger-etc-115447/

Falken

It's amazing, your thinking is exactly the same as mine. Conservative tune on the mazsport kit. The mazsport kits all use the same turbo, whats different is that type I and type III have an air-air intercooler and type II and IV have an air-water intercooler. That and where the turbo is mounted. It's not going to make much more power...each kit claims to be able to generate 400whp but no one has yet confirmed that, and if you managed to boost to those levels don't expect your engine to live very long.

Also, remember that the stock 8 only puts out 175whp or so, so 300 to the wheels is a lot already.

Kane

iTrader: (1)

And how is that exactly? Air, Fuel, Temp.... 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other.

Falken

OOh I was doing some research and I posted that before I realized I was on a supercharger enthusiast website my bad.

Kane

iTrader: (1)

I have 2 turbo's (and built 2 more)..... that is "my bad number 2".

I think I should make a car powered by ethanol and nitrox - then I can talk smack abut everyone else.

eastcoastrotary

I was reading through the thread again and noticed this post:

rotorocks (or anyone), why could these goals not be achieved with the Esmeril kit? It's not as all-inclusive as the Mazsport kits, but it still seems like a viable option.

Falken

I think he was referring to reliability. You get what you pay for in the FI business, and frankly a more complete kit is less likely to break every day. Unless of course you are forcing a 1.3 to vomit out 400whp, in which case it will break fairly quickly.

Ti Carbon

Pettit = Reliability!! You'll have less to worry about with the SC an u'll have better TQ at lower rpm... I went to pettit for them to put in my turbo, But if u want to install, or have someone else install ur FI go with the SC from pettit. NO boost creep,leak, or spool time. An less heat

mysql

Please explain with details to back up your claim.


Because more moving parts is less to worry about?


Show me proof of this. I haven't seen the Pettit SC power band under 3k. But at 3k and above, my turbo makes far more torque.


Why is it that I see the SC dyno results showing an increase of PSI as the rpms rise? No spool time? I reach 12 psi at 3,200 rpm on the GT3071R. You'd be eating my dust from the start line.


Uhhh, because liquid intercoolers are so much more efficent than air to air, right? lol. You are a jokester.

Kane

iTrader: (1)

<-Pokes self in eye with pencil...

Edit: Just so you can't say I am not being helpful.
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/power-adders-fi-dummies-turbo-supercharger-nitrous-122645/

mysql

at least he's consistent. He didn't get anything right.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Show us where the Pettit is beating anything.

eastcoastrotary

In Ti Carbon's defense, the Pettit curve does have a very desirable shape, even if the other kits have higher numbers. It also reaches a high portion of its maximum torque very quickly. I think the ideal solution would be to try to replicate its shape by flattening a turbo curve through engine tuning while keeping the numbers higher.

mysql

You can just set your boost controller to adjust how soon boost comes on and how long it takes to peak. Easy to replicate, but people usually want the target boost level to hit as soon as possible, and keep it till redline.

Falken

Correct me if this is irrelevant or just plain wrong.

I will post this in the other section too. I am a novice at this so I'm not sure if this matters, but I thought it might be helpful to include hp/psi and tq/psi with the graphs.

Note that I did the calculations by dividing PSI into the amount of horsepower and torque increased from stock, not into total horsepower and torque. Rounded to nearest tenth.

Greddy Turbo - - - - - - - - - - 10.7hp/psi and 11.2lb-ft/psi, 21.9 total
SFR Turbo - - - - - - - - - - - - 15.6hp/psi and 11.4lb-ft/psi, 27.2 total
Pettit Supercharger - - - - - - 17.3hp/psi and 8.3lb-ft/psi, 25.6 total
MazdaTrix Supercharger - - - 15hp/psi and 9.8lb-ft/psi, 24.8 total
Mazsport Turbo - - - - - - - - - 13.5hp/psi and 9.5lb-ft/psi, 23 total
PTP Turbo - - - - - - - - - - - - - 11.9hp/psi and 9lb-ft/psi, 20.9 total
MM Greddy Upgrade - - - - - - 14.4hp/psi and 13.7lb-ft/psi, 28.1 total

From the looks of those figures it seems that the Pettit blower gives the best boost/hp ratio but the worst boost/torque ratio. The best boost/torque ratio is MM's turbo which also has respectable boost/hp ratios, and is actually overall the most efficient.

I'm at a loss as to how boost/hp and boost/torque correlate. I see no pattern, I figured that better boost/torque options had good boost/hp ratios as well but the Greddy does not, and than I figured that good boost/hp options had good boost/torque ratios, but the Pettit supercharger does not.

EDIT: The superchargers have worse boost/torque ratios because they rob the engine from crank power, correct? So assuming that the supercharger was powered by an ideal external source, it would produce better torque numbers? Or does the crank power really matter that much?

EDIT3: Thinking about it now there must be many more variables to consider when finding a correlation here, i.e. exhaust obstruction, inducer diameter, intake volume, etc. Thus the calculations above can be taken as rough at best.

I'm very eager to see MM's input on this, apparently shape does not matter as much as "volume under the curve". MM can you expound upon this? Would a mazsport turbo running under lower boost have a flatter curve?

EDIT2: Can someone explain why some lines end before 9,000rpm? The behavior of the turbo beyond 8,000 is fairly important I would say.

mysql

psi is a real rough idea of power, but it's not directly comparable between systems because flow rates differ. You want high flow, with low psi - which will result with cooler charge temps.

Given the same psi and flow rate, the turbo would produce more power than a SC because it's going to be more efficient. How much more efficient depends on the blower type and other things, but generally speaking this should be a true statement.

Falken

If that's so than flow rate should definitely be included with those graphs.

mysql

you going to buy each kit and measure the flow rates for us?

Falken

Haha wouldn't THAT be nice. I would hope that the vendor could obtain that data from the manufacturer considering its relevance. If not I will make the proper E-mails and phone calls myself if I can obtain the model numbers.

mysql

cool. Good luck with it. The flow rates for the greddy and mm upgrade are already known (jeff posted charts a while back)

mysql

Green is the stock greddy turbo.

Blue is the GT3071R upgraded turbo with custom trims.

I believe red is what the greddy turbo would do with an upgraded wheel.

rotorocks

Your requirement: "super fast spool-up time"
It won't happen. They'll tell you it does, but it wont'
That turbo they use is just not cut out for that. Too heavy and unresponsive. You might Like it from at the beginning, but will get used to and think that it is slow, because it feels very lazy until you hit at least 4-5K rpm, and even after that it is far from "super fast spool".
Read this thread entirely (starting with post #45 and on), and you'll see what I am talking about: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/esmeril-turbo-kit-dyno-review-146281/

Kit in itself is nice (manifold, downpipe, battery relocation kit, fuel pump, injectors... But 6K without EMS? Pricey! If you decide to get it, consider throwing out the cheap piece of iron they use for the turbo and replace it with a decent unit right off the bat. (another $1000) However that will instantly put you on the same price range as MazSport, so I don't see what you are winning here. For that much might as well go MazSport from the start.

Also look at the dyno curves?
No one has it down purtier than MM Upgrade.
And you don't have to worry about loosing your traction. You will stay on the road firmly unless you want to go sideways.

Falken

Define "purtier"

rotorocks

The power and torque curve, it is the most aggressive, and yet smooth and predictable of them all. From the very beginning, it makes more than anyone else and just keeps on going.

When you install a $8000+ worth of power upgrades, that last thing you wanna do is downshift into 4th gear while driving 80mph on a freeway to pass a Civic.