Jarred

I just spoke with a specialist in my area and he warned me of a high motor failure rate with some turbokits, he said the "x-tra stress of a boosted motor is enough to cause apex seal breakage" (with the stock apex seals)

anyone heard of this?

bureau13

I've gotta call BS on this one...I don't know anyone who has a commercially available turbo kit yet, let alone anyone who has sold enough of them to make a statement about failure rates. At least, not with the Renesis, and since its a different beast than the older motors (and we know the older ones can take turbos anyway)...

jds

rev-2-9k

You could certainly speculate that this would be the case. Historical rotary evidence would support it. But as b13 said there is not a large sample for the Renesis, which would be needed to make the specialist's statements true.

Snoochie

High failure rate? As far as I see 0% of sold turbos for this car have had problems. That's a pretty good figure

crossbow

Maybe he was talking about the 350Z and its #5 and #6 rod bearings?

RXE16T

If your "specialist" was referring directly to the 8, I think you have to find yourself another "specialist" since this guy sounds like he's talking out of his ***.

How many commercially available turbo kits are available on the market for the 8?
WTF is he basing his "high motor failure rate" on?


Since when does a Zed have apex seals? ("x-tra stress of a boosted motor is enough to cause apex seal breakage")

crossbow

I know it doesn't have apex seals. I just thought maybe the guy was getting car's mixed up. The Z's got a whole crapload of turbo kits available for it, with a whole slew of people blowing engines left and right, mostly rod issues. Aka maybe a Z owner was talking to him, and for some reason he thought the guy owned an 8.

RXE16T

Hardly makes the guy a "specialist" does it? :p

Jmwkobe

Well then why doesn't everyone who gets the turbo kits, do internal workings on the engine too, i think Acosta has internals already set up for the 8

bureau13

Maybe because you don't need to if you tune it right. And if you tune it wrong, no upgraded aftermarket seals are going to save you. Boost doesn't blow apex seals...at least not the boost levels we'll see when kits start coming out. Detonation on the other hand...

jds

Jarred

yeah I knew there was something fishy about those statements, thought I'd run it past you guys, thanx a bunch.

JeRKy 8 Owner

I heardsomething similar from a local rotary mechanic who only works w/FDs. He believes that the side seals on the Renesis will likely be susceptible to problems/damage down theline if one were to add F/I to their Rx8 since the seals are completely differentfrom those found on Rx7s. He elaborated about it and gaveme all this techno mumbojumbo explanation (that I nodded to and pretended to understand) that I didnt bother to remember.

This is similarto what "MrPort andPolish" wrote in his warning post about side seals a few months ago https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-aftermarket-performance-modifications-23/renesis-side-seal-discussion-38411/

Not thatI believe any of that butI thought it was interesting to hear how pessimistic these rotary mechanics areabout the Renesis.

Onthe other hand this specialist also thinks if you leave these naturally aspirated rotaries stock - they should last over 200000 miles if properly cared for.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Jerky, you and I are in the same mindset, here. Let's not forget that many of the "experts" that we all have come to know and love had several things to say about the durability of the Renesis. The first myth was that it couldn't handle detonation, to any degree. This caused people to believe that the Renny was, in many respects, somewhat fragile. I believe I have disproven that theory. Second, Acosta Motorsports, of all places, was said to have been telling customers that anything over 300 h.p. would "break your engine" but they would do a porting job which would help the situation. I think that both Ito and myself, again, have proven those pessimists wrong. Third, this discussion on the strength of the side seals and apex seals has led people to believe that they cannot put any form of boost on the Renesis. If me and Ito can put nitrous oxide systems on our cars that work extremely well, and reliably so, why aren't those turbo manufacturers getting off of their well-financed asses and doing something worthwhile to offer a decent kit? How pathetic is it that two guys like me and Ito are ahead of the curve when it comes to serious power production and modifications, especially when you consider that he and I are self-financed and have families to support? If I had the R+D funds available for projects like this that the big boys do I can gaurantee all of you that I/we would have well over 300 rwhp kits available by now. Do I sound frustrated? I am only disappointed at the lack of substantive intellect I am finding in the world of aftermarket/performance parts and supplies and hope I can get out there and fill the void with the way I treat people, design parts, assure quality, and educate the public on what works and what doesn't.

Sorry for the rant.

Charles

Landon_Starr

I thought ITO had ported/polished....? I don't recall ever hearing he had installed NO2. Everything was so vague with what he was saying, I may be completely wrong.

All respect due, Charles, you pushed it until ECU tuning was required (70 shot, or something, wasn't it?), this seems to be the hiccup that everyone is running into.

Although NO2 is definitely a strong proven resource for power, it's still illegal in many states and isn't a choice for everyone, as having a potentially dangerous bottle in the trunk sitting right behind your 6-year-old may not be an option for everyone.

The "safe" (term used loosely) alternatives to NO2, such as supercharging, turbocharging, etc., all require a little more than hooking up a bottle and some hoses and pushing the engine as far as it goes until it starts to knock. I'm not trying to take anything away from you "proving" that the Renesis could handle detonation. Just that 1 engine's response to shooting NOS probably isn't sufficient enough to throw it around like it's disproving "theories" and creating "proofs". Definitely doesn't qualify you to pass judgement on "substantive intellect".

Try not to "guarantee" things that you don't have a hell of a lot of experience with. Your last post seriously discredited you in my mind along the lines of tuning and producing horsepower.

--Landon

bureau13

But a few so-called experts with probably LESS Renesis specific experience than Charles should be considered gospel?

I personally am far more leary of the unnamed "experts" we keep hearing about and their theories of how everything will go up in a poof of smoke at the slightest mention of "boost" than I am of people who have taken their cars and actually done something impressive with them, even if it is just an example of one.

jds

Landon_Starr

I never said that. In fact, I never said ANYTHING about ANY "so-called experts". Feel free to fabricate as you desire, though. Charles' discussion as I interpreted it was frustration directed at the "Big Boys", of which I would associate with Racing Beat, etc...

I just don't think that running NOS on one RX8 engine, without tuning it, qualifies you to pass judgement on performance shops that have years upon years tuning, testing, and applying performance enhancements to rotary engines.

I applaud Charles' groudbreaking No2 experiments, he has excellent communication and documentation capabilities, and is willing to post his results in an orderly manner on the RX8 forum. Keep up the good work Charles!

However, if anyone feels that they can do better than the "Big Boys", I encourage them to go apply for a business loan and start a company. New companies NEVER fail because the owners don't THINK they can do things better, they fail simply because they cannot.

--Landon

Omicron

Sorry Jarred, but your "specialist" is bull$hitting you. There's hardly any turbo or super charger kits on the market yet. He's feeding you the same line of bull that usually goes along with "the RX-8 is slooooooow."

bureau13

I'm fabricating? Do you even know what started this thread?


jds

Landon_Starr

Sure I do, but you chose to quote ME. Not the person who started this thread.

--Landon

bureau13

Well, I was replying to you in the context of the thread...work with me here! :D

jds

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Landon, you pretty much nailed what I was saying except that my gaurantee is only related to what I would do as an aftermarket designer if I had a much larger budget and full time to do it. I plan on putting my money where my mouth is as soon as possible. The equity loan is approved and the line of credit is on its way. I limited my nitrous at 55 h.p. due to the ECU situation, as you also state, but I could easily install an E-manage and get to the 75 h.p. level. Ito is planning on a 100-150 shot. Since it is damn near winter here in Michigan it would be pointless for me to continue that area of modification. What the simple installation of nitrous kits like mine are proving is that the Renesis is quite amenable to areas of upgrade that were previously thought impossible or at least cautionary. In addition, Ito was having transmission problems that may have led people to believe our cars were incapable of h.p. figures necessary to get anything quicker than low 14's in the 1/4 mile. So far, I am at low 13's with nitrous on factory rollers and getting a tenth or two quicker every week or two. Who would have thought that a mildly modified RX-8 with the M flash could break into the 13's(without nitrous) with tires that are becoming more suited for drifting? In summary, I am pointing out that I have discovered our cars and engines have performance abilities beyond that which most would have thought possible, and quite streetable to boot. I prefer to be an optimist, even though I am doing a bit of whining at this point, and encourage those who would like to modify their 8's to do so and enjoy it. I have shocked quite a few people who drive cars that are supposed to be the "Kings of the Road" by slamming their doors for them by second gear. Why wouldn't I want others to experience the same thing if that is their goal? It was only up until recently that the RX-8 had a reputation for being slow. How many have felt empowered, or at least reinvigorated, by reading my posts and the posts from other people like Ito? What I was also trying to get across in the midst of all my bitching was that with all the abuses I have laid upon my engine one would think that GReddy, HKS, and others(especially Mazdaspeed) would see that as an area of workability with regard to what the engine can handle. Instead, they publish photo essays in Modified Magazine(and one other I cannot remember at this time) and lead the readers to believe they are getting 14-17 pounds of boost when, most likely, they are capped at about 3 or 4. Pettit is the only company doing anything other than window dressing, in my opinion.

Besides all of this, I also wanted to bring forth the more militant side of my opinion(s) and see how my friends on this forum responded to it. I tend to think that we, as a collective, are providing more to the companies I mentioned above, Pettit excepted, than they are to us right now.

Let me be a real Ahole and go this far; I will put my car against any other RX-8 out there with a turbo/super on it in a side-by-side comparison and be glad to see the results. When Greddy, HKS, and the others are ready so am I. If this makes me a dick, so be it, but if they are going to print with their products let's see how these kits perform in the "real world".

One last thing; most start-ups fail for lack of clear operating objectives and logical forethought as to what their particular company is capable of and what their position is relative to the market. With 20 years in the music business I have seen hundreds of bands with the same problem. It is not that they "cannot do it", it is more typical that they cannot manage the business end of running a business. Most people would be surprised to find out how much "outsourcing" of things like machining and building of the engines actually happens in these shops we read about in our favorite magazines. When you see the photos in your favorite rag be aware that most of these shops prefer to do the bolt-on stuff that many of us do in our own driveways. What I am trying to do here is de-mystify the idea of hot-rodding the RX-8.

Charles

Landon_Starr

Just so we're clear here, managing the business end is inherently related to "doing things better", and is a prerequisite to expanding your budget to the levels you reference. True, alot of shops do mostly bolt-ons, but this is a requirement to stay in business, the market doesn't demand turbos or nitrous enough to justify a specialized shop of this sort (with the exception of national parts distributors/manufacturers). The first local business to start up an RX8-only modification shop will be destined for futility, local markets aren't big enough to justify this. Market makes the business, rarely will the business make the market (unless you're Microsoft). If you really are looking into starting a business, quantify your market before you get a loan. Competition is a steep wall to scale, and the aftermarket parts industry is definitely saturated. Economies of scale for shipping alone can put you at an absolute disadvantage for quite some time...

Good Luck!

--Landon

BaronVonBigmeat

I think the biggest part of the problem with a lack of real performance parts is that pretty much every RX-8 ever made is still new enough to be under warranty, and probably most people will tend to wait until the warranty is up and their car is paid off before they make any serious mods.

I expect to see a pretty good number of "serious" parts around late 2005/early 2006, to hazard a guess.

Zaku-8

after re-reading corky bell, there are good counterarguments to the warranty point. The reason for warranties is that the various components have higher likelihood of failures after the warranty is up, which will mean relatively higher frustration and cost for mod installs after warranty.

also, doing a performance modification before warranty is up means instant gratification, and doing so will probably add more personal value to the car than otherwise. This is because early mods will be rare and have exclusivity as a factor, and the mod will be on a newer car without any of the drawbacks of obsolescence, or staleness, if you will.

Hopefully this won't be a problem with the 8. I can only really see this happening if Mazda releases a 7, and hits it out of the park. But I like the 8's lines and interior enough that this may not be a factor.

So overall, I think its a tradeoff of some sort, but one that's smaller than what most people realize. You'll get your moneys worth if you go FI now, regardless of warranty.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Landon, I completely understand your point(s), have already thought through all of it before, and agree whole-heartedly. I don't expect to blaze onto the scene shooting off my mouth and being some sort of hero. You are correct in reading my irritations as being directed at the "big boys", but RB is not one of those companies. As a matter of fact, to get a real handle on what I am talking about take a look at the story in the new RX Tuner regarding the Aussie turbo RX-8. The story, as short as it is, is replete with unsubstantiated claims and curious outcomes. These are the things that cause the aftermarket consumers to get their hopes up only to be let down with frustration. I think there is some sort of competition in being able to say they were the first to have a kit available but the "fine print" would say that the unit is for appearances only. That is why I have chosen nitrous- I know it works and I don't need to wait. Intelligent people like you are a definite asset to this forum and I respect what you have to say whether or not I agree with you.

Charles