My friend Brian in Dallas has always been a pioneer at doing what others said can't be done. He is the epitome of the first 2 quotes in my signature. He does things with a rotary that many others can't and I don't mean in an erotic way! While this isn't an RX-8, it is a chronicle of what it has taken him to get the power levels that he has in an RX-7. I feel that the info is benefical here as the techniques can be directly applied. There is definitely something here to learn. I am linking to another forum where he has a long thread on the subject. It is long reading but if you can actually suffer through my posts, this shouldn't be much worse! He has pictures, and datalogs which show his intake temps, a/f ratio, rpm, load, etc... Great info that is definitely worth the read for anyone interested in taking their RX-8 to the next level.

Just to let you know what he has, it's a 4 port 13B half bridgeport (only the secondary ports are bridged, not the primaries), 8.5:1 compression ratio, stock Turbo II RX-7 top mount intercooler (!!!), 60-1 HiFi (the small one!) turbo, Haltech ecu, Greddy Profec B boost controller, Alcohol injection, of course the necessary fuel upgrades, etc... Now I know this doesn't sound comparable to a Renesis with so many different things but the point here is that you need to see what his a/f ratios are like, what his intake temps are like, and just how much boost he has gotten away with. I know he has lower compression ratio but the techniques still apply. No one else has ever come anywhere even remotely close to this power level with this turbo or with this intercooler yet alone with both of them together! Great read that's worth the time.

http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=50682

 

Great read. He is very well documented for a tuner.

 

^word, and documentation (as all engineers know, ugh) is everything!!!

 

If you are following his progress, do please let us know after he has dynoed. I do believe he said he was going to do so soon. It would be interesting to get the car on a brake dyno and study how it's running. I've read of other guys (in my case, vr-4s) running propane to prevent detonation, but never enough to significantly alter their fuel delivery.

 

brian is the guy that was telling me i was cheating for making 400hp on 87 octane with meth injection. he's a great mechanic, but that's just a bit hypocritical.

 

He has only fairly recently discovered the true benefits of it. He was against it himself for a while.

 

like my dad's drill sergeant used to say: y'ain't cheatin' y'ain't tryin' :D

 

Maybe one of you guys should give him an RX8 TO play with and see what he can come up with for us interesting .

Michael

 

Interesting....more specifically, he's in Grand Prairie, where I live. Where's his shop?

 

In his garage. I've been there a few times. He's a nice guy.

 

Very nice, GREAT READING!!

 

I'm on the north side of I20 right near Carrier. My garage is my shop.

B

 

If you can find the quote on that rx7club thread, I'd be happy to respond to the particulars of whatever wording I used, Dave. But, I can tell you how I felt when I responded and that was basically this -- there's no way you're going to do it. I think you're talking out of your rear-end. There's all sorts of "experts" on the Internet; so many people who talk such a big game, yet in reality so few who actually go and do anything. With regards to 87 octane, whatever volume of injected alcohol, and an alleged 400hp, I'd like to see you try it.

B

 

the fd was happy at 11 psi on the 66 with 87, no aux. injection.
i've got 450+ on 91 without injection, so how much do you think 4 octane points are worth?

i used 8.5 rotors for a reason, y'know.

but if you wanna get semantic, you said
"Oh, I'm not saying can't to you. I'm saying can't to the fuel."

 

You've claimed these things, but I've never seen a dyno sheet from you once. I haven't even seen a mere datalog from you, either. If you really are doing "450+ on 91 without injection", I'd love to see the evidence of it. You'd think that something as substantial as that would merit some sort of proof. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about -- it'd be awfully easy on this Internet here to make claims that are wonderful and awe inspiring, but they're worthless unless there's some substantiation. That's what I was feeling when I took exception with your "400 on 87 pump" comment. It very well could be possible but I don't think you've ever done it. Go ahead and try it; I won't. If you do it, great. If you fail, then there's where my comment, "I'm saying can't to the fuel", comes in.

And to the other comment -- No, I am no hypocrit. I was more 'virgin' to the idea of injection than I was anything else at the point when Howard and I started reading up on this. Six months later, we each had our systems' parts laying on our desks. Shortly thereafter, they were installed. Fast-forward and here we are now, showing the capability of the use of alcohol as a fuel replacement in boost. It's wonderful. It's the Holy Grail of Major Horsepower for the RE.

B

 

Hey Brian. Welcome to the 8club forum!

 

Any octane fuel can be used to get high power numbers with methanol injection. The real question is, how much methanol will be needed in relation to gas to hit the desired power level? Of course the ratio of methanol to gas would be high with a lower octane fuel such as 87. It also depends on how much ultimate power you are going for, engine compression, etc. Quite simply to get a higher power number on 87 octane you'll need a greater amount of methanol but I don't see why it couldn't be done.

 

Then be my guest and go try it, Fred. I won't be using 87 in my tank knowing how volatile it is. The guy who designed the system I use (http://www.alkycontrol.com) said it's meant to be used with 93 and since he's been right about everything else he's said I think I'll stick with 93.

I have a question -- what are the turbo alternatives for the Rx8's out there and how does the stock computer handle pressure in the manifold?

B

 

The point was that if someone ran 50% methanol to gas on 87, they could probably match what someone with 92 octane is doing with 20% methanol. You get the idea. Then the question becomes, what fuel are you really running on at that point as the cost benefits of 87 have gone out the window.

So far there are a few turbo systems out there. Greddy makes one but I am a firm believer of staying away from it at all costs. It comes with a sub par ecu solution and the turbo is very small. Maxed out people are just getting 300 rwhp out of it but most aren't.

Mazsport has a very nice turbo setup. It's designed well, sized properly, comes with a good ecu (Microtech for the most part), and has hit some nice power numbers. The kit has the capability of hitting 400 hp if everything else is done properly.

PTP motorsports has a turbo kit but we haven't really seen much of them. SSR also has a nice looking kit but again we just haven't seen much of them.

There are a couple of supercharger kits in the works but for the most part they'll be limited to sub 300 hp numbers or so.

The stock ecu has a mass air flow sensor. The ecu on this car is very controlling. You really need to take it out of the system altogether when it comes to fuel and ignition tuning. That is until someone releases a system that allows you to reflash it. This is supposedly coming soon.

 

I dont want to butt in to your conversation but whats the point of tuning a high horsepower car to run on 87 and 89 and not on 93?? We put so much money into these cars why is it necessary to save that 15-20 cents per gallon, especially if that has to be counteracted by spraying more meth?

Edit: NM just read the same question on RG's post...

 

I could see a PowerFC version of the stock ECU being pretty handy in the future.

B

 

Cobb Tuning (as in Trey Cobb who used to work for Rotary Performance) has a solution coming out first quarter of next year that allows you to plug into the OBDII port and retune the stock ecu. There is also another one that I know of that should do the same thing. Those will be very nice.

 

What about using E85 instead of alcohol injection. E85 is getting more plentiful around here.

 

It all goes back to what your goal are and how much power you want. A higher octane fuel will allow you to go higher. You also need to understand what Brian has been doing. He's trying to see how far he can take it. Methanol has some very good properties to it such as really cooling the charge down. Of course it also has some bad properties too. Obviously a downside to E85 is the fact that you need more of it to get the same power level and gas mileage goes down but you should be able to ultimately get more power on it than on straight gasoline.

 

"EGT's -- they were always between 1250*F to 1300*F "

I read this and had a couple questions: What are typical EGT (Exhaust Gas Temps?) on non-meth injected applications? Are those numbers good or bad?