Hymee gets Supercharged (Part 2)
08-20-2009, 11:48 AM
#1651
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I think that's a good news for me. The good thing with that system is that you can keep most of your bolt on parts or keep the OEM look. I'm sure that most intake systems will not fit except for the RB one.
The only thing that I have that would not be possible to keep is the RB air duct which is in the way of the intercooler.
08-20-2009, 01:59 PM
#1656
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we already have dyno #'s.
just not the kind of dyno most people are used to.
just not the kind of dyno most people are used to.
08-20-2009, 02:00 PM
#1657
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Please take a look at the dyno #. They have been posted numerous time over here already.
http://www.performancedesign.com.au/...EngineDyno.pdf
http://www.performancedesign.com.au/...EngineDyno.pdf
08-20-2009, 02:03 PM
#1658
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Why is everyone so hung up on dyno numbers when so few people have any real clue in what it means in the real world? Dyno charts are a 2D representation of a 3D problem. You get less than 10% of the useful information that you'll feel when you drive it. They tell you nothing about how it drives such as throttle response and ultimately nothing terribly useful in determining how fast you are. I can't wait to hear the debate on that! Dynos are good for selling product. They're just a tool more often than not used primarily for marketing reasons. The people that know how to properly use them are typically the people that don't mention them.
08-20-2009, 02:15 PM
#1659
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you answered your own question
all they know is hp and to the simple person: more hp = better.
why do you think companies still put hp / tq figures in every car brochure. Is it REALLY a determining factor? NO... but it's a way to get the person some quick facts.
that assumes we're asking the same questions.
IF all I want to know is... can this supercharger hit 300whp, then a dyno answers a lot more then 10% of my question.
I understand that's not the end-all question to buying FI but to some it's a start. If their goal is X and a dyno can tell them whether X is achievable, then that's why people ask for it.
for the record: I'm on your side on this, just trying to see things from the "normal" person's perspective. I understand that getting X horsepower could be worthless (ie; 1000 hp Supra dyno queens) but not everyone thinks like that.
A dyno is what gets someone in the door, and THAT is always step #1 in closing a sale.
IF you can't get the person in the door or even remotely interested, you sure as **** aren't selling them anything.
I mean...c'mon, how else are you going to sell a product whose primary purpose is to increase hp and tq figures. You gotta show those figures.
Is there A LOT more to the equeations... YES but... again. Refer to step #1.
in short: I think that's why people are obsessed with dynos. (IMHO)
all they know is hp and to the simple person: more hp = better.
why do you think companies still put hp / tq figures in every car brochure. Is it REALLY a determining factor? NO... but it's a way to get the person some quick facts.
IF all I want to know is... can this supercharger hit 300whp, then a dyno answers a lot more then 10% of my question.
I understand that's not the end-all question to buying FI but to some it's a start. If their goal is X and a dyno can tell them whether X is achievable, then that's why people ask for it.
IF you can't get the person in the door or even remotely interested, you sure as **** aren't selling them anything.
I mean...c'mon, how else are you going to sell a product whose primary purpose is to increase hp and tq figures. You gotta show those figures.
Is there A LOT more to the equeations... YES but... again. Refer to step #1.
in short: I think that's why people are obsessed with dynos. (IMHO)
08-20-2009, 02:16 PM
#1660
I bought my kit before seeing any dyno at all. I just loved what Mark had to offer and could see it for what it is-- a high quality piece of art. It will provide me with as much power as I need, but I plan to be rather conservative. Dynos are overrated-- but I will get one once my car is all done and tuned, to satisfy everyone :P
08-20-2009, 02:47 PM
#1661
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I didn't say dynos are useless. They do have merit. However typically the people that want to see a dyno or need to see one are going to ultimately compare the number they see on paper with another number from another product and then base their buying decision on that alone. That's terrible and not terribly relevant unless product A makes 100 peak hp, 75 average hp while product B makes 300 peak hp and 250 average hp. That's useful. The old dyno thread that (thankfully) was deleted was full of this nonsense. People said X was better than Y and so forth and so on yet nothing there said anything too terribly relevant. You could base a couple of conclusions from it but nothing in terms of knowing how well it was engineered, how it drives, how reliable it was, etc. All you knew was that on that day, product X did so much power and others did what they did. Boost was all over the place too which was made the comparison all but a terrible joke. Those charts couldn't tell you that regardless of how much power it could make, the Greddy system would always suck.
That's why dynos aren't that useful. You're right they are meant to get you in the door. That means they are more of a marketing gimmick than a factual presentation of what is available.
That's why dynos aren't that useful. You're right they are meant to get you in the door. That means they are more of a marketing gimmick than a factual presentation of what is available.
08-20-2009, 02:56 PM
#1662
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I would love it if instead of peak numbers, Dyno's gave "area under the curve" numbers instead. THAT is FAR more worth comparing....and still not the whole story. Heck, I think manufacturers should be using that method.
2010 MS3 is a perfect example. It has the same peak power/torque. A lower 0-60, the same quarter mile, a higher trap speed. Why? It's because the torque curve changed. Peak numbers clearly don't tell that story.
2010 MS3 is a perfect example. It has the same peak power/torque. A lower 0-60, the same quarter mile, a higher trap speed. Why? It's because the torque curve changed. Peak numbers clearly don't tell that story.
Last edited by RIWWP; 08-20-2009 at 02:58 PM.
08-20-2009, 03:08 PM
#1663
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I wish torque wasn't displayed at all. You don't need to know it. All we care about is how much work is being done. Torque doesn't do work. I would like to see at least 5 different dynos all at different load levels. Then I'd like to see all comparisons done on the same type of dyno and scaled the same. I don't want to see one that mentions rpm at the bottom and another that mentions speed. I also don't want to see a chart that starts at 2K and another at 4K. Same numbers, same scaling so you can overlay them directly. As close to equal as possible.
I know this isn't realistic but it's the only way that would be relevant for a comparison.
I know this isn't realistic but it's the only way that would be relevant for a comparison.
He has enough of a demand as-is, I don't think he has a cause to worry.
08-20-2009, 03:34 PM
#1666
Why is everyone so hung up on dyno numbers when so few people have any real clue in what it means in the real world? Dyno charts are a 2D representation of a 3D problem. You get less than 10% of the useful information that you'll feel when you drive it. They tell you nothing about how it drives such as throttle response and ultimately nothing terribly useful in determining how fast you are. I can't wait to hear the debate on that! Dynos are good for selling product. They're just a tool more often than not used primarily for marketing reasons. The people that know how to properly use them are typically the people that don't mention them.
The fact that most people have no idea how ,what they are looking at, translates to the what really happens on the road is unfortunate but unavoidable .
08-20-2009, 03:37 PM
#1667
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I bought the kit 'dyno unseen' because of the level of engineering devoted to its development. I get more information from Danny's comments on power delivery and throttle response than from Dyno curves.
To me, this kit is all about scaling the performance of the RX8 to a higher level without the negative drivability issues that can arrive with FI. If I wanted to argue about dyno curves, I'd drive a Camaro...
To me, this kit is all about scaling the performance of the RX8 to a higher level without the negative drivability issues that can arrive with FI. If I wanted to argue about dyno curves, I'd drive a Camaro...
08-20-2009, 03:49 PM
#1668
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They are hung up because they want to know what will give them the quickest car . The fact that one RX8 making 300whp maybe quicker than the next one that makes 330whp is lost on most people but if they knew how to interpret the numbers they would see it very clearly. Your 10% number is a gross underestimation of the usefullness of the information IMO. Sure it wont tell you about throttle response , quality or longevity . And anyone thet makes their decision soley on a dyno deserves to get what they get . But for the purpose of telling which car will accelerate the fastest in what rev range it is the ONLY tool that we have short of a side by side comparison. The fact that most people have no idea how ,what they are looking at, translates to the what really happens on the road is unfortunate but unavoidable .
If I was selling a product such as a supercharger or turbo, from a marketing standpoint the best thing you could possibly do was to push it to it's limit, right to the point of barely surviving so you could make every last little bit of power. Use high octane race fuels or alcohols. air up your tires so tight they almost pop so you can get rolling resistance down to a minimum. Everyone like dynojet readings as opposed to others so go ahead and play the game. Then dyno it and send that chart out to the world. Then label it as whatever power level you want them to use it at without ever giving them a chart to show what it would do at that level. I guarantee almost every person buying it would be completely fine seeing that. It probably wouldn't even matter if the "lower power" kit was the most beautifully engineered and well though out thing in existence. If the higher power kit was poorly built Korean crap that was cheap, guess which one would sell more? I'm glad Hymee puts lots of time and effort into his kit because my personal opinion is that is not a single better option for the RX-8 out there regardless of power level. Keep in mind his isn't too shabby!
I know people would be fine with the above because people take their cars to dynos all the time and then run high octane fuels just for those runs so they can show off a high number in their signature even though their car is never at that power level. Go to the 7 forum sometime and see what I mean. It's sad. Smart people know what to look for and what they are looking at. The average consumer really isn't smart though. That's reality.
08-20-2009, 03:54 PM
#1669
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They are hung up because they want to know what will give them the quickest car . The fact that one RX8 making 300whp maybe quicker than the next one that makes 330whp is lost on most people but if they knew how to interpret the numbers they would see it very clearly. Your 10% number is a gross underestimation of the usefullness of the information IMO. Sure it wont tell you about throttle response , quality or longevity . And anyone thet makes their decision soley on a dyno deserves to get what they get . But for the purpose of telling which car will accelerate the fastest in what rev range it is the ONLY tool that we have short of a side by side comparison.
The fact that most people have no idea how ,what they are looking at, translates to the what really happens on the road is unfortunate but unavoidable .
The fact that most people have no idea how ,what they are looking at, translates to the what really happens on the road is unfortunate but unavoidable .
I also highly disagree about the torque comment RG, because seeing the given torque curve of a dyno (not the peak) can tell you a LOT about how a car is going to drive on the street. In fact, its one of the only things on the dyno that does.
I really don't understand all of the bitching and moaning about dyno numbers and how "misleading" they are etc. Yes, if you post only peak numbers its highly misleading, but a good dyno plot with a list of supporting modifications can give you a good idea of the capabilities of a given kit.
08-20-2009, 03:59 PM
#1670
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That's actually what I'm talking about. You have really narrowed down the variables to nothing more than full throttle only and even then only over a portion of the entire rpm range. I don't think my 10% factor is off at all and this just reinforces it. Most people don't care about what the car will do most of the time or how it will drive or respond most of the time. They want to know something that from practicality standpoint isn't terribly useful and then want to base a purchasing decision on it.
If I was selling a product such as a supercharger or turbo, from a marketing standpoint the best thing you could possibly do was to push it to it's limit, right to the point of barely surviving so you could make every last little bit of power. Use high octane race fuels or alcohols. air up your tires so tight they almost pop so you can get rolling resistance down to a minimum. Everyone like dynojet readings as opposed to others so go ahead and play the game. Then dyno it and send that chart out to the world. Then label it as whatever power level you want them to use it at without ever giving them a chart to show what it would do at that level. I guarantee almost every person buying it would be completely fine seeing that. It probably wouldn't even matter if the "lower power" kit was the most beautifully engineered and well though out thing in existence. If the higher power kit was poorly built Korean crap that was cheap, guess which one would sell more? I'm glad Hymee puts lots of time and effort into his kit because my personal opinion is that is not a single better option for the RX-8 out there regardless of power level. Keep in mind his isn't too shabby!
I know people would be fine with the above because people take their cars to dynos all the time and then run high octane fuels just for those runs so they can show off a high number in their signature even though their car is never at that power level. Go to the 7 forum sometime and see what I mean. It's sad. Smart people know what to look for and what they are looking at. The average consumer really isn't smart though. That's reality.
If I was selling a product such as a supercharger or turbo, from a marketing standpoint the best thing you could possibly do was to push it to it's limit, right to the point of barely surviving so you could make every last little bit of power. Use high octane race fuels or alcohols. air up your tires so tight they almost pop so you can get rolling resistance down to a minimum. Everyone like dynojet readings as opposed to others so go ahead and play the game. Then dyno it and send that chart out to the world. Then label it as whatever power level you want them to use it at without ever giving them a chart to show what it would do at that level. I guarantee almost every person buying it would be completely fine seeing that. It probably wouldn't even matter if the "lower power" kit was the most beautifully engineered and well though out thing in existence. If the higher power kit was poorly built Korean crap that was cheap, guess which one would sell more? I'm glad Hymee puts lots of time and effort into his kit because my personal opinion is that is not a single better option for the RX-8 out there regardless of power level. Keep in mind his isn't too shabby!
I know people would be fine with the above because people take their cars to dynos all the time and then run high octane fuels just for those runs so they can show off a high number in their signature even though their car is never at that power level. Go to the 7 forum sometime and see what I mean. It's sad. Smart people know what to look for and what they are looking at. The average consumer really isn't smart though. That's reality.
Yes, there are certainly ways to fudge a higher result out of the kit, overboosting it to the point of failure, using a dyno that shows higher numbers etc. To some extent you have to play the numbers game if you want to market a product. That isn't new to this industry thats the case everywhere. You offer the SprocketMaster 2000 and someone offers a SprocketMeister 3000 to one up you. In the end though if people buy a kit with higher numbers despite it having inferior parts due to poor research they deserve what they get. Arguing the fault is somehow the dyno is silly though.
08-20-2009, 04:04 PM
#1672
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08-20-2009, 08:57 PM
#1673
No more dyno arguments please. I know what the car DRIVES like, and so does Danny.
There is nothing like the on-tap, instant "torque" that this gives. All the reasons I decided to go down this path are still relevant and validated in my eyes now.
Cheers,
Hymee.
PS - The black lid with the engraving... We just ran out of time to get that new "lid" anodised before engraving it. I was trying to get to the nats, but missed out. Stayed back to work on the kit instead.
Cheers,
Hymee.
There is nothing like the on-tap, instant "torque" that this gives. All the reasons I decided to go down this path are still relevant and validated in my eyes now.
Cheers,
Hymee.
PS - The black lid with the engraving... We just ran out of time to get that new "lid" anodised before engraving it. I was trying to get to the nats, but missed out. Stayed back to work on the kit instead.
Cheers,
Hymee.
08-21-2009, 09:08 AM
#1674
Registered
Sorry for the argument Hymee. FWIW: The instant HORSEPOWER you get when stepping on the gas has got to be fun!
08-21-2009, 10:11 AM
#1675
Administrator
No more dyno arguments please. I know what the car DRIVES like, and so does Danny.
There is nothing like the on-tap, instant "torque" that this gives. All the reasons I decided to go down this path are still relevant and validated in my eyes now.
Cheers,
Hymee.
PS - The black lid with the engraving... We just ran out of time to get that new "lid" anodised before engraving it. I was trying to get to the nats, but missed out. Stayed back to work on the kit instead.
Cheers,
Hymee.
There is nothing like the on-tap, instant "torque" that this gives. All the reasons I decided to go down this path are still relevant and validated in my eyes now.
Cheers,
Hymee.
PS - The black lid with the engraving... We just ran out of time to get that new "lid" anodised before engraving it. I was trying to get to the nats, but missed out. Stayed back to work on the kit instead.
Cheers,
Hymee.
sure sure sure spend all your time in making it work and NONE on the aesthetics
