na race engine
07-12-2011, 12:57 PM
#101
Ask yourself why most track cars, even in open classes, have WAY less than 600hp. Are the builders stupid?
Check the Road Race restrictions for Rotaries and then build your na race motor, so you don't get sanctioned. That's why I stopped caring for Road Racing since their rules are biased against the Rotary engines, they want them extincted.
Depending on your build, intake exhaust and tune you can get as much as 350whp on the 13B all motor. More than that you will need top fuel.
Renesis can get 262whp with ALS Seals, E&J Billet Rotors, Billet Flywheel, AccessPort and a good tuner, and you will build good torque on thruought the whole powerband.
Im not sure about how much more on a standalone EMS, maybe not much more. I am starting a project to see how much can get on that myself, but will be a hybrid Ren/13B/PP/SP all motor.
07-12-2011, 01:03 PM
#102
Your Renesis rwhp figures are absurd, have you got a dyno to prove it? If it's flywheel hp you're talking than you're about 15hp behind most, and they follow the rules the strict rules you mention.
Now stop mentioning the usual products you're trying to push somehow and discuss the build in depth, what you're saying is of absolute no use to the original poster and the community.
Now stop mentioning the usual products you're trying to push somehow and discuss the build in depth, what you're saying is of absolute no use to the original poster and the community.
07-12-2011, 03:45 PM
#104
Not so absurd if they actually work, which was why I was investigating and discussing it with them in late 2009. That said, most discussion and durability results (short or long term) have gone silent since then. Even the website is unchanged except the specific linked page for the rotors is dead. There is a thread on Rx7Club on Mazdatrix billet aluminum rotors where he listed some of the specifics. Without proven durability it is all but useless for the subject of this thread.
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Last edited by TeamRX8; 07-12-2011 at 04:28 PM.
07-12-2011, 03:55 PM
#105
You think that anyone is interested in your nut swinging on Puerto Rico and East coast?
You truly act as ricer, every part is bolt on power
La Cecil is using Renesis rotors? You are engine builder of that car?
I feel bad for you, poor guy
07-12-2011, 09:48 PM
#109
Ok bse50, same to you flashing RotaryHeaven on every answer, should I say nobody is interested as well?
Better tell me the difference of building a rotary engine block for drag VS Road Race. just the block, not the intake or bolt on stuff.
Better tell me the difference of building a rotary engine block for drag VS Road Race. just the block, not the intake or bolt on stuff.
07-13-2011, 01:48 AM
#110
That's my signature and no moderator or member ever complained so don't act as a cornered fox.
Drag vs Road race, block only uhm... I dunno where to start! Ports shape, ports size and overlap, dyamic balancing to work at different rpms, water jackets rework with an extra care for hot spots, oil pressure.
These are the things that should be done differently, taking the "Bolt ons" out of the equation as you said. So different headers, intake, flywheel weight size and shape are all left out per your request.
Drag vs Road race, block only uhm... I dunno where to start! Ports shape, ports size and overlap, dyamic balancing to work at different rpms, water jackets rework with an extra care for hot spots, oil pressure.
These are the things that should be done differently, taking the "Bolt ons" out of the equation as you said. So different headers, intake, flywheel weight size and shape are all left out per your request.
07-13-2011, 03:04 AM
#111
07-13-2011, 03:26 AM
#112
I think there shouldn´t be such closed thinking as this is drag and won´t last and this is road race with broad powerband and durability
Drag engine also have extensive modifications to be reliable and durable - high Rpms are biggest factor on wear. But they´re producing quite a bit of power.
Many road racers are stuck at rather lower power level.
Its simple, when you shoot for given power on same platform, its not going to be very different.
07-13-2011, 04:20 AM
#113
Not necessarily true. For example in case of peripheral port engine, opening and closing points of intake and exhaust ports, port area, overlap etc. can be pretty much same. For given power, we have to have certain flow rate, duration of opening with area cover this. Shape of powerband, will be mostly determined by intake/exhaust lengths, dimaterers and pulse tuning.
I think there shouldn´t be such closed thinking as this is drag and won´t last and this is road race with broad powerband and durability
Drag engine also have extensive modifications to be reliable and durable - high Rpms are biggest factor on wear. But they´re producing quite a bit of power.
Many road racers are stuck at rather lower power level.
Its simple, when you shoot for given power on same platform, its not going to be very different.
I think there shouldn´t be such closed thinking as this is drag and won´t last and this is road race with broad powerband and durability
Drag engine also have extensive modifications to be reliable and durable - high Rpms are biggest factor on wear. But they´re producing quite a bit of power.
Many road racers are stuck at rather lower power level.
Its simple, when you shoot for given power on same platform, its not going to be very different.
I'd rather waste 5% of peak hp to have an overall beefier and more usable power curve in a set rpm range (from 2000 to 3000rpms depending on the gearing i'd say)
Higher rpms also means narrower powerband. That's where the design differences matter as well.
Then again, an all motor drag 13b will last less than a road race "all motor" build. That's because of the aforementioned reasons: higher rpms and power delivery. Bigger ports are tougher on each and every seal and so on.
What we tend to confuse is the concept of "reliability". A drag engine sees extremely high stresses for very short periods of time, a road race engine is often out for time spans that vary from 20\40 minutes to 3-6-12-24 hours. Even 60 10 seconds runs don't come close to a single road race!
To make a drag engine last that long you'd have to sensibly lower its power output by either redesigning it or let it run at lower rpms.
With their actual port configuration lower rpm operation would be crap as intake and exhaust velocity really matters. Redesigning it would make it a road race engine
Now go to the bolded part: You're considering the power output as a constant, which it actually isn't if you read my assumptions. Same goes for port shape (under certain physical limits). You can have the same static flow rates for a squared hole, an octagon and a nice kangaroo-shaped port but is velocity the same? Ports are shaped like "water drops" on side intake\exhaust engines for a reason!
For the same reason similar-flowing P-ports are different than their side counterparts.
These are things that should be considered when building an engine for race purposes just as much as intake\exhaust configurations, flywheel\clutch combos, gearing etc because each kind of racing has its different goals.
I'm sure you could bring a 1200hp turbocharged 13b to a race track but your score in points would be.. DNF. Same applies for a NA stock renesis on a drag strip, you would end up being last
07-13-2011, 07:45 AM
#115
I have been racing cars since 1978, started with Toyotas, then Nissan's, Rx-7's, Mercedes, Jaguars and ending with Rotaries again. Have had over 80 Rotaries.
I Used to sell engines and cars to Pettit Racing and even raced with him in Daytona since 1996.
Not to mention drag racing, where I know and have had motors build by the best there is.
You build a drag motor as strong or even stronger than a road race motor, but when you stress it out with boost and even nitro like Loquito Killer's 1,250whp Starlet you are stretching it way avobe it's limits of durability. However you are just going for a 1/4mi. sprint and not a marathon.
In top that there is the wasted HP. A drag race chasis etc. can put the power to the ground, but a road race, even if the engine was able to last that long, it will be waste as you will be spinning tires all over the place in the grass most of the time.
Now 999miki thought I don't know based on my crazy Ren/13B PP Hybrid motor which I don't debate as of being absurd and agaist all odds. I know that.
He also confirmed what I was saying about the Drag Race engine block VS road race block below.
Now if anybody some tricks about getting the most out of a Renesis na race engine please bring th to the table please.
I Used to sell engines and cars to Pettit Racing and even raced with him in Daytona since 1996.
Not to mention drag racing, where I know and have had motors build by the best there is.
You build a drag motor as strong or even stronger than a road race motor, but when you stress it out with boost and even nitro like Loquito Killer's 1,250whp Starlet you are stretching it way avobe it's limits of durability. However you are just going for a 1/4mi. sprint and not a marathon.
In top that there is the wasted HP. A drag race chasis etc. can put the power to the ground, but a road race, even if the engine was able to last that long, it will be waste as you will be spinning tires all over the place in the grass most of the time.
Now 999miki thought I don't know based on my crazy Ren/13B PP Hybrid motor which I don't debate as of being absurd and agaist all odds. I know that.
He also confirmed what I was saying about the Drag Race engine block VS road race block below.
Not necessarily true. For example in case of peripheral port engine, opening and closing points of intake and exhaust ports, port area, overlap etc. can be pretty much same. For given power, we have to have certain flow rate, duration of opening with area cover this. Shape of powerband, will be mostly determined by intake/exhaust lengths, dimaterers and pulse tuning.
07-13-2011, 08:50 AM
#116
If I can ask?--wouldnt the drag race engine ( i dont know what class of running we are speaking off)
1- block build for 10000rpm redline--meaning doweled etc,oil channels reworked differently, not so much the cooling jackets as short bursts of high load/high rpm can be handled much better than substained high load/high rpm, bearing clearances should be different also, e-shaft support--even the needle bearings have been installed in the drag engine.
Ak heck--everyone knows this --I dont even know why I am posting.
Mark you would be proud of me
1- block build for 10000rpm redline--meaning doweled etc,oil channels reworked differently, not so much the cooling jackets as short bursts of high load/high rpm can be handled much better than substained high load/high rpm, bearing clearances should be different also, e-shaft support--even the needle bearings have been installed in the drag engine.
Ak heck--everyone knows this --I dont even know why I am posting.
Mark you would be proud of me
07-13-2011, 12:02 PM
#118
There is a lot of debate here about nothing. Many here are making great points that don't necessarily contradict each other.
SaveTheRotary's points are not all wrong and I'm glad he's joined us.
Comparing NA drag engines though to endurance road race engines, there is still a lot that could be set up different between the two:
Most of the road race engines we have done in the last 30 plus years have been designed for sustained 9k rpm or LESS and we have seen quite a few exceed 100 hours run time. You would be amazed what happens to components under endurance racing conditions. We've seen parts fatigue that few will ever see fail in production or drag racing. One quick example is rotor cracking in the stationary gear region. A billet aluminum rotor would be quite unhappy in a gasoline powered endurance racing rotary (It would prefer a cool alcohol environment).
That is just a quick example of a main component that could be addressed completely differently for drag vs road race.
Paul.
SaveTheRotary's points are not all wrong and I'm glad he's joined us.
Comparing NA drag engines though to endurance road race engines, there is still a lot that could be set up different between the two:
Most of the road race engines we have done in the last 30 plus years have been designed for sustained 9k rpm or LESS and we have seen quite a few exceed 100 hours run time. You would be amazed what happens to components under endurance racing conditions. We've seen parts fatigue that few will ever see fail in production or drag racing. One quick example is rotor cracking in the stationary gear region. A billet aluminum rotor would be quite unhappy in a gasoline powered endurance racing rotary (It would prefer a cool alcohol environment).
That is just a quick example of a main component that could be addressed completely differently for drag vs road race.
Paul.
07-13-2011, 02:05 PM
#120
E85 is both highly under rated and under utilized on NA rotary engines, moreso on the Renesis in particular ...
a peaky motor is easier to deal with on the strip, having to shift or not being able to smoothly during high lateral loads can be counterproductive
The motor being proposed is not a new idea. It has potential, but there are a lot of variables so its best not to get too far ahead of yourself with wild predictions. The sum of the parts don't always equate to immediate greatness.
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a peaky motor is easier to deal with on the strip, having to shift or not being able to smoothly during high lateral loads can be counterproductive
The motor being proposed is not a new idea. It has potential, but there are a lot of variables so its best not to get too far ahead of yourself with wild predictions. The sum of the parts don't always equate to immediate greatness.
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 07-13-2011 at 02:09 PM.
07-14-2011, 08:36 AM
#124
Nice! I'm still working out what all needs to be done to run it in our cars.
The whole ethanol corroding aluminum thing kind of has me worried mainly becuase I have chrome flake
.
On cars with good housings and zero chrome flake it should be fine. Guess I'll make the switch on my next rebuild.
The whole ethanol corroding aluminum thing kind of has me worried mainly becuase I have chrome flake
. On cars with good housings and zero chrome flake it should be fine. Guess I'll make the switch on my next rebuild.