WoodsOfGreenRx8

Here you go Taj:

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/s....php?p=1476182

YaXMaNGTO

http://www.dynojet.com/dyno_centers/...utomotive.aspx

tajabaho1

that be cool! thanks

jones75254

iTrader: (2)

^^^so we will be expecting results tomorrow night, right Taj? ok cool

Yax, when are you bringin that tank up to Dallas?? LOL i wanna feel what a 440whp GTO is like. Thought u had once talked of having people up here.

tajabaho1

I have school tmr, I'll call em up see how much.........

WoodsOfGreenRx8

Taj, that link said: 50 for 3 runs on December 2nd.. So why do you need to call & find out how much... Oo

Kane

iTrader: (1)

Ok - so when Nitrous breaks up; you get N2 and O2. What is the PPO2 % of O2? If it is above .37 ATA then you will have an increased risk of uncontrolled explosive fire. Storage may not be an issue - although it is still under pressure.

This is more of a question than a statement - so let the experts jump in. I am curious now (what, when how) the Nitrous becomes a volatile mixture.

PS - CRH Like the new logo.

YaXMaNGTO

Just so you know... the VQ folks are NOT safely running a 100 shot without pulling timing / tuning. They run a 75 shot without a tune. A stock block VQ can't handle anything over a 150 shot with tuning and race gas... and even then it's on the verge making big holes in the side of the block.

YaXMaNGTO

572 degrees Fahrenheit under compression is when it breaks down into its nitrogen and oxygen constituent parts. That's when you get the extra burn from the higher concentration of oxygen... not any time before that point.

Compressed nitrous oxide bottles have a warning sticker of "non flammable oxidizer". It is not flammable until it reaches that temperature and breaks down.

Kane

iTrader: (1)

^^^ Thanks - so it only de-couples inside the chamber - velly interesting!!!!

DrewMan

Nitrous Explosion

Kaboom!

YaXMaNGTO

Exactly! Now the confusion starts when people don't understand the physics of spraying through the MAF. In a dry kit, I have a spray bar located inside the stock airbox. The liquid nitrous is atomized and sucked through the MAF. When the nitrous decompresses, it gets extremely cold and dense, and the MAF all the sudden thinks it's sucking in air from northern Alaska. It compensates by richening up the fuel mixture, and thereby keeps the AFR's safe while spraying the nitrous. This is why we don't need tuning for 100 shot on the LSx motors. The interesting thing to note is that in no way did the nitrous experience a chemical change in the intake before being combusted. It's simply in the process of a physical phase change from liquid to gas.

I know... You guys don't even use dry kits, right? Has anybody tried?

tajabaho1

seen worse.......search around, theres one where the tank it's self blew up because the asshat put the valve and siphon tube in and didn't seal it, apparently, the retard also put it very close to the exhaust.....boom balaka~!

black halo racing.........theres nothing black.....or halo on that logo!!! omg I might not buy your radiator just because I dont like the logo (talk about irrational)

tajabaho1

not after seeing what happened to that retard I mentioned earlier...........

besides, wet kit does fine for our car, its less hp, but what the hell, i think its safer, is it really safer? I don't know its just my own thought

chemistry pwns, also kane, Nitrous becomes very very bad when mixed with any magnesium or sulfer based compounds...............

u know those liquid nitrogen bombs they used to make in China? (fobs should know what I mean) it explodes into acid

for magnesium u have time to run, for sulfer it shoots out and starts to eat the bottle unless its glass

YaXMaNGTO

Oldie but goodie! Do you hear how low in the RPM range when that guy hammered it??? If all he had was a WOT switch and no window switch, it sprayed at < 2000 RPM. BOOM nitrous backfire. That's the dyno operator's fault. I'D BE PISSED!!!!

I set my window switch at 3500-6000 RPM's these day.

Hey Taj, when you go to the dyno, tell him not to hammer it until it's up to a decent RPM.

Kane

iTrader: (1)

So - how does it backfire is the gas is non combustanble outside the heat of the chamber?

I am not a chem wiz - but my curiosity is peaked now...

tajabaho1

yea, Ray told me 4000kRPM+ or nadaaaaaaaa

and I believe him (he hasn't told me anything wrong ever )

tajabaho1

the reason it back fires is that at lower rpm there is less fuel/air available to be combusted, I know you know that........and because of that, NO2 concentration becomes too high, in the combustion chamber......which results in super LEANNNNNNNNNNNNNNN and we know what that leads to

another thing is that there aren't that many air pushing the nitrous into the manifold at that certain rpm (Which is why different cars inject nitrous at different rpms) you gotta understand that nitrous injects not only N2O but fuel also..........some of that fuel can be stuck on the manifold (and seeing as the shots are huge) good amount of fuel can be depositted inside the intake tube or manifold..........and yep, engine heat + fuel deposit + nitrous flying overhead the fuel deposit = good day to you sir............

Phish806

iTrader: (4)

so if the nitrous / fuel buildup inside the intake causes the backfire... wouldnt moving the nozzle as far back as possible mean less likely for buildup and backfire... and if this is the case... isnt charles' new plate pretty much as far back as you can go (without a complex install). so ... his plate would also be one of the safer installs as far asexcess buildup and backfire? . or am i smokin something here?

tajabaho1

what? u lost me, you can't move it back so much because then it ***** the MAF, which is why most people install their nitrous nozzle in front of the throttle body somewhere, which IMHO is a good spot because its not that close to the engine, and any buildup would be before the fins (I made a mistake once, but fortunately it didn't harm me or my car, but I had to clean the rubber intake hose), that being said I really liked how Ray installed his 2 nozzle right where the manifold goes into the engine, avoids any build up possible because any of the excess nitrous would be dropped down into the engine correct? which leads me to my next question, using your setup is probably more effective than putting it far back correct? and the risk of back fire is far less? (although it will be much closer to the heat source)?

I also want to point out, you know how dry shots spray fumes of nitrous (vapor)?
correct me if I'm wrong here someone but because of that, aren't dry shots supposed to be somewhat safer than wet shots in the sense of backfire, if we DISREGARD every other factor?

CnnmnSchnpps

iTrader: (1)

The nitrous is not combustible but the fuel sure is All that is necessary to start this off is something to spark the fuel. After that point the nitrous can start breaking down as well. As to what sparks the fuel.. dunno. Leftover exhaust gas in the chamber (once the intake port opens)?

Now for what goes on inside the combustion chamber. The mixture needs to be lit off before nitrous starts breaking down and freeing up O2. So I'm assuming the situation at the head of the flame front looks something like this:

- combustion temps break down nitrous and O2 molecules are liberated
- there is extra fuel available in the mixture so this O2 is consumed almost instantly (we never get a large region of mixture with high concentration of O2)

The other question I have is, does the temp point at which nitrous breaks down decrease as the pressure rises (I would assume, yes)? In this case, the problem becomes the far ends of the combustion chamber, where pressure keeps rising as the mixture is burned. If pressure becomes high enough for the nitrous to decompose before the flame front reaches this region, at that point we can get a massive release of O2 and a too-high PPO2. The mixture will spontaneously combust ahead of the flame front. Essentially, I am concerned about nitrous lowering the temp/press threshold above which detonation can occur.

staticlag

Well, since oxygen is at about 36-37 percent by weight when it is bound to nitrogen when it does break apart at the temp Yax has said it will produce an atmosphere of ~64% pure nitrogen and 36 percent oxygen, which as Kane has said is pretty much the lower volatile limit for safe oxygen usage. As long as it is confined to the combustion chamber this is great its just more power.

So atmospheric oxygen is around what? 21% now? so depending on the total combination of ambient air and nitrous would yield the total oxygen contributed to the combustion process.

So depending on what size shot you are running your total amount of oxygen would be somewhere between 21% and 36% with 36% oxygen if you ran your car under solely a nitrous atmosphere.

But, as I said eariler, since the oxygen is bound to nitrogen it makes it stable, much more so than what Kane is talking about, pure O2 which is extremely hazardous.

O2 is present in ambient air in around 21% concentration and is ready to be used by us to breathe or for combustion or whatever. But we couldn't breathe by just using nitrous oxide just like our car couldn't breathe if it tried to use just nitrous oxide, because it would need something to break the bond between the nitrogen and oxygen first to release the oxygen into a usable free form.

So yes, you could run a car just on nitrous and it would be just like running on air that has 36% oxygen (by weight) but you would need a fuel that is capable of combustion just by itself, a fuel that has its own oxygen supply. These are where it gets really dangerous because whatever fuel you use will be classified as rocket fuel and will go off at the slightest anything.

Kane

iTrader: (1)

I am with ya CnnmnSchnpps (thanks for the explanations); to add one last point; nitrous while increasing PPO2 does not increase pressure normally - it would take a large amount to change the pressure ratio enough for your situation. So I am not sure how it would affect flame front and detonation issues (barring a HUGE amount being used).

Kane

iTrader: (1)

PS - thanks Staticlag; learning a lot today.

staticlag

Pressure would halt the degeneration of nitrous oxide into nitrogen and oxygen.

So as pressure increases you would need to add more heat into the system to have the nitrous oxide break down into nitrogen and oxygen.

What you need to be concerened about is the implications of pressure rising in the combustion chamber, ie. as things are compressed they heat up.

So theoretically some water injection would go a long way. But the more stuff you decide to throw in the camber, the less useful stuff there is room for.