OD's engine build
06-01-2011, 07:09 AM
#176
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~
I am also convinced after collecting some basic data that a post blower IAT will work much better than an algorithm for the maf system.
So that has to be installed and scaled.
That means some a little machine work so I can install a water meth nozzle post iat.
This engine challanges the cooling system more than any other rotory engine I have had or seen. Thats a good thing, but it may envolve a little tweaking of my cooling systems.
I am on the fence about installing the 09 primary fuel injectors before I tune and I have some work to do on cooling the fuel rail. that thing gets HOT.
I am also convinced after collecting some basic data that a post blower IAT will work much better than an algorithm for the maf system.
So that has to be installed and scaled.
That means some a little machine work so I can install a water meth nozzle post iat.
This engine challanges the cooling system more than any other rotory engine I have had or seen. Thats a good thing, but it may envolve a little tweaking of my cooling systems.
I am on the fence about installing the 09 primary fuel injectors before I tune and I have some work to do on cooling the fuel rail. that thing gets HOT.
Nice mod on the relocated IAT sensor, I wonder if the GM sensor can be used by the ECU and a gauge at the same time? (I already have that GM sensor for my IAT gauge under the Pettit upper intake)
Fuel rails: a finned aftermarket replacement made out of aluminum, may actually heat the gas with our under hood temps, a better solution would be water cooling of the fuel line/rails, running off the IC's water flow.
06-01-2011, 08:29 AM
#178
rote--did you scale this gm sensor or just plug it up to the ecu?
I dont know of anyone that has it hooked up to a gauge. Currently I am monitoring the a.w coolant temps--that seems to work better with the sensor i now have available but i dont know what the delta is. But, at least I know the system is working.
People can raise their eyebrows if they want too about cooling the fuel rail, but 180F temps have been measured on itl. Since the fuel is under a good bit of pressure it is not vaporizing but I am almost certain that cooling that rail will have a positive result.
I too have thought of using the a/w cooler set up to help with this. Some 4X4 guys have a system in which they made a small copper pipe coil and installed it around the fuel rail, then made a larger copper shield around that. They also made sure that phenolic material was isolating all the bolts that hold it on.
They saw a 40F degree drop
It would be easy to do with our set up and it would be trick. Since I will soon be swapping my injectors for a cleaned and matched set it may be a good time to set this up.
Do you think both rails need to be done or would doing just the secondary rail be enough?
Hoss-- yea baby, but thats a bit much for me!
It has gotten so dang hot here that I had to set my secondary radiator upright! That worked
I dont know of anyone that has it hooked up to a gauge. Currently I am monitoring the a.w coolant temps--that seems to work better with the sensor i now have available but i dont know what the delta is. But, at least I know the system is working.
People can raise their eyebrows if they want too about cooling the fuel rail, but 180F temps have been measured on itl. Since the fuel is under a good bit of pressure it is not vaporizing but I am almost certain that cooling that rail will have a positive result.
I too have thought of using the a/w cooler set up to help with this. Some 4X4 guys have a system in which they made a small copper pipe coil and installed it around the fuel rail, then made a larger copper shield around that. They also made sure that phenolic material was isolating all the bolts that hold it on.
They saw a 40F degree drop
It would be easy to do with our set up and it would be trick. Since I will soon be swapping my injectors for a cleaned and matched set it may be a good time to set this up.
Do you think both rails need to be done or would doing just the secondary rail be enough?
Hoss-- yea baby, but thats a bit much for me!
It has gotten so dang hot here that I had to set my secondary radiator upright! That worked
06-01-2011, 03:44 PM
#180
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A return style fuel system and some phenolic spacers so the rail doesn't conduct heat directly from the mounts would be the *best* way to go. a big pump, big regulator and a finned fuel cooler in the airflow under the car on the return would ditch most of the heat that is picked up on the loop. It also has the benefit of being a much more consistent fuel source overall.
That would probably be more consistent and cheaper than any of the methods described yet...
That would probably be more consistent and cheaper than any of the methods described yet...
06-05-2011, 11:48 AM
#185
Registered
rote--did you scale this gm sensor or just plug it up to the ecu?
I dont know of anyone that has it hooked up to a gauge. Currently I am monitoring the a.w coolant temps--that seems to work better with the sensor i now have available but i dont know what the delta is. But, at least I know the system is working.
I dont know of anyone that has it hooked up to a gauge. Currently I am monitoring the a.w coolant temps--that seems to work better with the sensor i now have available but i dont know what the delta is. But, at least I know the system is working.
Originally Posted by olddragger
People can raise their eyebrows if they want too about cooling the fuel rail, but 180F temps have been measured on itl. Since the fuel is under a good bit of pressure it is not vaporizing but I am almost certain that cooling that rail will have a positive result.
Originally Posted by olddragger
I too have thought of using the a/w cooler set up to help with this. Some 4X4 guys have a system in which they made a small copper pipe coil and installed it around the fuel rail, then made a larger copper shield around that. They also made sure that phenolic material was isolating all the bolts that hold it on.
They saw a 40F degree drop
It would be easy to do with our set up and it would be trick. Since I will soon be swapping my injectors for a cleaned and matched set it may be a good time to set this up.
Do you think both rails need to be done or would doing just the secondary rail be enough?
They saw a 40F degree drop
It would be easy to do with our set up and it would be trick. Since I will soon be swapping my injectors for a cleaned and matched set it may be a good time to set this up.
Do you think both rails need to be done or would doing just the secondary rail be enough?
If not, this may be related to the dead engine issue in Arizona?
My water methanol turns to water after a day in the tank...
06-06-2011, 08:44 AM
#186
I dont think the ecu monitors the fuel temps at all. I dont think any car does --except desials?
But, after working on this idea this w/e and some good advice from some smart folks--I have to say this idea is a NO GO. The a/w intercooler type fuel rail cooler will end up being to dang complicated and too hard to maintain. It will also clog up that part of the engine. If we only had one long fuel rail it probably would be better.
I will do some things. I already have the gas line insulated. i will also install phenoilc gaskets on the mounting bolts and use insulation around the rails.
It was suggested that a cooling air tube may be of benefit, but with my set up I dont have a way of routing one in a proper way.
I also want to put phenolic gaskets between the supercharger, the uim and lim. There is a lot of heat soak going on between them ...i think.
Only have to get my cleaned and balanced injectors installed and a new front o2 sensor and i will be ready for tuning.
I did find the holey grail of cooler placement for my car. The intake temps and engine temps are now where I like them--even with this 100f freak weather we have been having.
But, after working on this idea this w/e and some good advice from some smart folks--I have to say this idea is a NO GO. The a/w intercooler type fuel rail cooler will end up being to dang complicated and too hard to maintain. It will also clog up that part of the engine. If we only had one long fuel rail it probably would be better.
I will do some things. I already have the gas line insulated. i will also install phenoilc gaskets on the mounting bolts and use insulation around the rails.
It was suggested that a cooling air tube may be of benefit, but with my set up I dont have a way of routing one in a proper way.
I also want to put phenolic gaskets between the supercharger, the uim and lim. There is a lot of heat soak going on between them ...i think.
Only have to get my cleaned and balanced injectors installed and a new front o2 sensor and i will be ready for tuning.
I did find the holey grail of cooler placement for my car. The intake temps and engine temps are now where I like them--even with this 100f freak weather we have been having.
06-07-2011, 06:59 PM
#188
I check in on this thread from time to time so I apologize if I missed something.
How do we know that the fuel is HOT? I see above where OD states that 180F has been measured on the fuel rail, but thats not the fuel, its only the rail. The fuel is moving, so a new supply of cool fuel is constantly being introduced to the hot fuel rail and every bit of fuel will absorb some heat, but unless the fuel rail remains a contant 180 and the fuel is stagnant, the fuel should be much cooler.
I would like to agree that cooler fuel would be a good thing and if there are simple and cost effective methods of reducing the fuel temps, I am all for it.
How do we know that the fuel is HOT? I see above where OD states that 180F has been measured on the fuel rail, but thats not the fuel, its only the rail. The fuel is moving, so a new supply of cool fuel is constantly being introduced to the hot fuel rail and every bit of fuel will absorb some heat, but unless the fuel rail remains a contant 180 and the fuel is stagnant, the fuel should be much cooler.
I would like to agree that cooler fuel would be a good thing and if there are simple and cost effective methods of reducing the fuel temps, I am all for it.
06-07-2011, 07:51 PM
#192
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I would be less concerned with fuel temps and more concerned with air temps.
and spark.
and exhaust.
and etc etc etc etc etc etc.
plenty of other low hanging fruit to help the quest.
and spark.
and exhaust.
and etc etc etc etc etc etc.
plenty of other low hanging fruit to help the quest.
06-07-2011, 10:01 PM
#193
the thing about us Pettit guys is that our fuel rails etc are clearly visable. Our uim is raised much higher off the engine so its easy to see them, touch them front to back etc and to use a laser therm. on them. I can have all my injectors out in 5 minutes for example.
Yall remember this is a supercharged engine not n/a, so charge cooling has a larger importance.
Just normal street driving on a 95 F day ect of 190F --you cannot hold your finger on the fuel rail.
laser temps of 160-180F are routinely measured.
Now if your tank is nearly empty, your fuel rail is really hot, you fill up with cool gas, crank your car up, drive it a mile, shut it off and check the rail? You will find that the fuel rail is actually cool to the touch. Just interesting to notice that.
The rail is much cooler on track we think due to increased engine bay air and fuel flow?
During street driving the fuel is hanging around in the rail a little?
Whether this is something that can "help", i am thinking its a maybe for consistency, little help with detonation control and not so much increased power output?
If i did this --any suggestions as to how to measure the effect?
Yall remember this is a supercharged engine not n/a, so charge cooling has a larger importance.
Just normal street driving on a 95 F day ect of 190F --you cannot hold your finger on the fuel rail.
laser temps of 160-180F are routinely measured.
Now if your tank is nearly empty, your fuel rail is really hot, you fill up with cool gas, crank your car up, drive it a mile, shut it off and check the rail? You will find that the fuel rail is actually cool to the touch. Just interesting to notice that.
The rail is much cooler on track we think due to increased engine bay air and fuel flow?
During street driving the fuel is hanging around in the rail a little?
Whether this is something that can "help", i am thinking its a maybe for consistency, little help with detonation control and not so much increased power output?
If i did this --any suggestions as to how to measure the effect?
Last edited by olddragger; 06-08-2011 at 09:06 AM.
06-08-2011, 11:53 AM
#194
Registered
I wonder how hot of a temp the expanding foam from a can will take, fill the area with foam...
06-12-2011, 09:21 AM
#199
Soon, but Cam at Pettit racing is talking to me and wants me to send him some efi files. I think he believes he has some responsibility in this (he really doesnt), as he wants a shot at tuning this engine. They gave me my first tune some years back when the gas was a little better and he thinks my timing is too high for what we have to run now.
He is like that--he will back you big time.
Heck on my 1st blown engine he was going to send me a free see off apex seals. Couldnt ask for a better dude.
He is like that--he will back you big time.
Heck on my 1st blown engine he was going to send me a free see off apex seals. Couldnt ask for a better dude.