question about MM Greddy turbo upgrade
12-15-2008, 01:05 AM
#1
question about MM Greddy turbo upgrade
Besides the convenience of a complete kit (no hunting down parts), what does this product offer that a do-it-yourselfer cannot normally get from various aftermarket parts suppliers? Are there any proprietary parts manufactured by MazdaManiac? On first glance it looks to be a GT3071R (3" inlet) with a T3 internally wastegated turbine housing and adjustable wastegate actuator.
Last edited by arghx7; 12-15-2008 at 01:09 AM.
12-15-2008, 01:07 AM
#2
The MazdaManiac GReddy Turbo Upgrade Kit includes:
1) A specially modified Garrett GT3071R(WG) turbocharger with a machined compressor back plate and specially adapted flanges to fit the GReddy manifold and downpipe and a 7 PSI wastegate actuator and bracket.
1) A specially modified Garrett GT3071R(WG) turbocharger with a machined compressor back plate and specially adapted flanges to fit the GReddy manifold and downpipe and a 7 PSI wastegate actuator and bracket.
12-15-2008, 01:14 AM
#4
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Mainly various machined parts. The greddy kit has to be adapted to bolt up to the 3071R turbo. I'm sure MazdaManiac could be more specific as I'm not familiar with the details of what he machines specifically.
12-15-2008, 01:29 AM
#6
which flanges though? they look commonly available to me, except the oil drain which appears to have been welded in-house.
again, most people buy kits because they are kits. It saves a lot of hassle.
But if someone wants to put together a similar setup with either that exact turbo or, say, a cheaper used T3/T04E 60 trim hybrid, I don't see how they couldn't piece it together. The Greddy O2 housing seems to use a 5 bolt GT style pattern that bolts right up to the internally wastegated GT turbine housing (it is not the Ford style 5 bolt, or at least I don't think so).
If you only had the Greddy turbo manifold (not sure if it's available separately brand new) you could eliminate the O2 housing completely and use any internally wastegated T3 turbo. Eliminate the airpump hose (doesn't the AP prevent it from throwing a code for emissions equipment?) and weld an O2 sensor bung into a custom downpipe with a 3 bolt flange.
Of course I haven't gotten under there and actually measured to see how easily all that would work. And it may be that it's just too much trouble to eliminate the Greddy O2 housing, which looks like it has a weird flange for the downpipe itself.
again, most people buy kits because they are kits. It saves a lot of hassle.
But if someone wants to put together a similar setup with either that exact turbo or, say, a cheaper used T3/T04E 60 trim hybrid, I don't see how they couldn't piece it together. The Greddy O2 housing seems to use a 5 bolt GT style pattern that bolts right up to the internally wastegated GT turbine housing (it is not the Ford style 5 bolt, or at least I don't think so).
If you only had the Greddy turbo manifold (not sure if it's available separately brand new) you could eliminate the O2 housing completely and use any internally wastegated T3 turbo. Eliminate the airpump hose (doesn't the AP prevent it from throwing a code for emissions equipment?) and weld an O2 sensor bung into a custom downpipe with a 3 bolt flange.
Of course I haven't gotten under there and actually measured to see how easily all that would work. And it may be that it's just too much trouble to eliminate the Greddy O2 housing, which looks like it has a weird flange for the downpipe itself.
12-15-2008, 01:33 AM
#7
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Jeff would prolly have to answer those questions, but just guessing and judging from your posts on the forum... i'd tend to think you would be able to do it yourself w/o too much trouble if you wanted.
12-15-2008, 01:34 AM
#8
I didn't think about the WG actuator bracket. From the pics on his website, I can't tell if it's the commonly available one that ATP sells...
The Greddy O2 housing is obviously a proprietary piece that was cast to meet the tight clearances under the car. Every Greddy/Mitsu turbo I've ever seen (including OEM ones on DSM's, VR4's) has an O2 housing between the downpipe and turbine housing. That's as opposed to a downpipe that bolts directly to the turbine housing backplate. There really is no reason to get rid of the O2 housing if you did in fact buy a full Greddy kit and are now intending to upgrade it (as opposed to just wanting to do a 100% or nearly 100% custom setup).
It makes me wonder though if bolting a downpipe directly to a T3 internally wastegated turbine housing would work with the clearances down there, if one didn't have that Greddy O2 housing.
For the oil line, it appears that MM elected to use silicone hose on a custom barbed drain flange. The other option, space permitting, would be a female 1/2 NPT flange and do the whole thing with all AN hose and fittings. But you would have to have some straight and angled fittings to make it all clear the turbine housing and go back to the pan properly. Again, all the measuring and parts runs are more trouble than its worth to most people.
For most people it still makes sense to just buy a used Greddy kit and then get the MM upgrade it seems. If you didn't want to use a 3071R or other GT series turbo you would have to remove the Greddy O2 housing or fabricate your own adapters to bolt up. But from what I can tell I do not see in the MM kit any proprietary adapter to physically make the turbo bolt up to the Greddy manifold (both are T3 footprint) nor is there a custom adapter to bolt the downpipe to the turbine housing. Rather, MM picked the GT3071R that already bolts to the Greddy O2 housing and then worked out the smaller plumbing issues such as oil lines and couplers for the turbo inlet.
The Greddy O2 housing is obviously a proprietary piece that was cast to meet the tight clearances under the car. Every Greddy/Mitsu turbo I've ever seen (including OEM ones on DSM's, VR4's) has an O2 housing between the downpipe and turbine housing. That's as opposed to a downpipe that bolts directly to the turbine housing backplate. There really is no reason to get rid of the O2 housing if you did in fact buy a full Greddy kit and are now intending to upgrade it (as opposed to just wanting to do a 100% or nearly 100% custom setup).
It makes me wonder though if bolting a downpipe directly to a T3 internally wastegated turbine housing would work with the clearances down there, if one didn't have that Greddy O2 housing.
For the oil line, it appears that MM elected to use silicone hose on a custom barbed drain flange. The other option, space permitting, would be a female 1/2 NPT flange and do the whole thing with all AN hose and fittings. But you would have to have some straight and angled fittings to make it all clear the turbine housing and go back to the pan properly. Again, all the measuring and parts runs are more trouble than its worth to most people.
For most people it still makes sense to just buy a used Greddy kit and then get the MM upgrade it seems. If you didn't want to use a 3071R or other GT series turbo you would have to remove the Greddy O2 housing or fabricate your own adapters to bolt up. But from what I can tell I do not see in the MM kit any proprietary adapter to physically make the turbo bolt up to the Greddy manifold (both are T3 footprint) nor is there a custom adapter to bolt the downpipe to the turbine housing. Rather, MM picked the GT3071R that already bolts to the Greddy O2 housing and then worked out the smaller plumbing issues such as oil lines and couplers for the turbo inlet.
Last edited by arghx7; 12-15-2008 at 01:58 AM.
12-15-2008, 02:14 AM
#14
Whats your time worth and how much do you actualy think you can save by doing it yourself? People buy kits because not only do they save time and hassel but when you piece it togeather and fabricate things you run the risk of making mistakes and in the long run it cost more money.
Last edited by Highway8; 12-15-2008 at 02:18 AM.
12-15-2008, 02:25 AM
#15
If anyone has a MazdaManiac kit for sale please contact me!
I told Jeff I would buy his kit for $2800 so that he could pay his fabricator $1000 to make me a kit but he does not seem interested.
I told Jeff I would buy his kit for $2800 so that he could pay his fabricator $1000 to make me a kit but he does not seem interested.
12-15-2008, 02:37 AM
#17
12-15-2008, 02:41 AM
#18
I've have a shop here in Phoenix that can turn them out, but enticing them to do so faster than I can do it myself (which is to say, very, very slowly) is no easy proposition.
That is what Dan is talking about. He offered a premium for me to get them to make it since I can't do it fast enough myself right now. I have yet to get a straight answer from the shop.
Building these things is a terrific PITA.
The oil drain cant be done with AN fittings - there isn't enough clearance to run a properly sized line.
The complete upgraded kit has the flanging modifications on the manifold and DP rather than the turbo, which is the preferable way to do it, but not practical as a "kit".
That is what Dan is talking about. He offered a premium for me to get them to make it since I can't do it fast enough myself right now. I have yet to get a straight answer from the shop.
Building these things is a terrific PITA.
The oil drain cant be done with AN fittings - there isn't enough clearance to run a properly sized line.
The complete upgraded kit has the flanging modifications on the manifold and DP rather than the turbo, which is the preferable way to do it, but not practical as a "kit".
12-15-2008, 03:24 AM
#19
I've have a shop here in Phoenix that can turn them out, but enticing them to do so faster than I can do it myself (which is to say, very, very slowly) is no easy proposition.
That is what Dan is talking about. He offered a premium for me to get them to make it since I can't do it fast enough myself right now. I have yet to get a straight answer from the shop.
Building these things is a terrific PITA.
The oil drain cant be done with AN fittings - there isn't enough clearance to run a properly sized line.
The complete upgraded kit has the flanging modifications on the manifold and DP rather than the turbo, which is the preferable way to do it, but not practical as a "kit".
That is what Dan is talking about. He offered a premium for me to get them to make it since I can't do it fast enough myself right now. I have yet to get a straight answer from the shop.
Building these things is a terrific PITA.
The oil drain cant be done with AN fittings - there isn't enough clearance to run a properly sized line.
The complete upgraded kit has the flanging modifications on the manifold and DP rather than the turbo, which is the preferable way to do it, but not practical as a "kit".
If so I am gonna have my greddy turbo rebuilt.
Do you know of any other liquid cooled turbo's that will fit without modification?
12-15-2008, 03:42 AM
#21
Would that solve the main problem with this turbo? It seems they require a rebuild very often.
12-15-2008, 07:19 AM
#22
If you use the greddy turbo, expect to pull it and rebuild it every 3-14 months for a DD car.
12-15-2008, 09:09 AM
#23
I don’t really need more HP. I need more reliability because this is my DD.
Would a GT28 turbo fit without modification?
12-15-2008, 10:33 AM
#24
More speculation here:
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/me...egory_Code=GRT
GT3071 with GT style downpipe discharge (to connect to Greddy O2 housing) and T25 hotside
+
T25/T3 adapter
with long enough studs, it should bolt up and it may be in fact what the MM kit does (TD06/T3 manifold to T25 hotside using an adapter)... or you could use a GT28, but really you don't want a turbo that small unless you really really want instant boost. The whole point of a 3071R is that it is the biggest commonly available ball bearing turbo with an internal wastegate, and the choice of the T25 hotside may help spool. I'm guessing the lack of port overlap in the Renesis reduces backpressure to the point where a T25 inlet won't choke up to the same degree it would on say a 13B-REW, and MM seems to have recognized that.
Here's something that MIGHT bolt up directly to the Greddy manifold on the inlet and Greddy O2 housing on the outlet without an adapter while still having enough clearance for all the crap down there:
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/me...egory_Code=GRT
you'd have to measure it... the bolt pattern for the downpipe discharge looks close to the T25 5 bolt GT style discharge, the one that I think is on the Greddy O2 housing. This would be for a T3 inlet on your 3071, which may hurt spool over MM's kit, assuming that it does in fact use a T25 hotside as I have been speculating here.
It looks like MM's kit is pretty well thought-out. The use of carefully chosen, commonly available parts for much of the kit cuts down cost and production time.
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/me...egory_Code=GRT
GT3071 with GT style downpipe discharge (to connect to Greddy O2 housing) and T25 hotside
+
T25/T3 adapter
with long enough studs, it should bolt up and it may be in fact what the MM kit does (TD06/T3 manifold to T25 hotside using an adapter)... or you could use a GT28, but really you don't want a turbo that small unless you really really want instant boost. The whole point of a 3071R is that it is the biggest commonly available ball bearing turbo with an internal wastegate, and the choice of the T25 hotside may help spool. I'm guessing the lack of port overlap in the Renesis reduces backpressure to the point where a T25 inlet won't choke up to the same degree it would on say a 13B-REW, and MM seems to have recognized that.
Here's something that MIGHT bolt up directly to the Greddy manifold on the inlet and Greddy O2 housing on the outlet without an adapter while still having enough clearance for all the crap down there:
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/me...egory_Code=GRT
you'd have to measure it... the bolt pattern for the downpipe discharge looks close to the T25 5 bolt GT style discharge, the one that I think is on the Greddy O2 housing. This would be for a T3 inlet on your 3071, which may hurt spool over MM's kit, assuming that it does in fact use a T25 hotside as I have been speculating here.
It looks like MM's kit is pretty well thought-out. The use of carefully chosen, commonly available parts for much of the kit cuts down cost and production time.