Renesis + FI < Durable ?
02-11-2007 | 09:59 PM
#26
Originally Posted by SlideWayz
The high failure rate of NA Renesis engines is a known problem. Mazda has even extended the powertrain warranty as a damage control effort. Please get your facts straight before breaking out the flamethrower, mate.
This just shows how stupid you're. RotaryGod explain it for me already so, please, go and do your homework before you Talk out loud.
My hypothesis is that there are failure-prone components and/or an overall design flaw in the Renesis engine. This is exacerbated by the additional mechanical stress of FI.
If lots of Renesis engines survive 50k+ miles of FI duty, then I will consider my hypothesis disproven. If, on the other hand, we see lots of them grenading for reasons other than bad tuning, perhaps my hypothesis will become a theory and we can see if trends emerge (or can be discerned from the wreckage!).
If lots of Renesis engines survive 50k+ miles of FI duty, then I will consider my hypothesis disproven. If, on the other hand, we see lots of them grenading for reasons other than bad tuning, perhaps my hypothesis will become a theory and we can see if trends emerge (or can be discerned from the wreckage!).
Do you even have any idea how many PISTON engines blew up in just 2006 alone? I cant tell you for sure, theres no way to tell of course. but why is it OK for pistons to blow up, and its like a sin for rotary ?
Mazda knows the RX8 is underpowered and way under-torqued for the US market, they have been experimenting with FI Renesis for 3 years, and yet they have not offered an FI Renesis product. Considering this along with the high failure rate of NA Renesis engines, it is not unreasonable to suspect they may know something they're not divulging to the RX8 community.
As a purely selfish concern, I am debating whether or not to pull the turbo off my car so I don't have to replace the engine again.
As a purely selfish concern, I am debating whether or not to pull the turbo off my car so I don't have to replace the engine again.
maybe they think the world has too many stupid people like YOU, when something is wrong they wont blame themself for bad tunning or bad install, but the first thing they'll blame would be "This engine, Rotary sucks"
02-11-2007 | 10:03 PM
#27
Originally Posted by MrWigggles
I can't give you an exact number. (Not that it really matters - better than average or worse than average is more telling than "1.432 % failure rate")
From Consumer Reports, Overall reliability versus other sporty cars:
Problem areas for the RX-8:
Compared to its competitors, 350z:
Sti:
S2000:
Miata:
I would say the RX-8 is much worse than the competition on "Minor" engine issues and slightly worse than average on "Major" ones. (I don't know if flooding would be considered an engine or fuel system problem.)
Anyway, I would say both of you guys are right. Yes, the Rensis has issues but it usually isn't catastrophic. However, the Renesis doesn't appear to be any better than its competition. And to be fair Fred, you are making claims without any hard numbers yourself; anecdotal evidence can prove any type of engine is good or a lemon.
Let the fighting continue...
-Mr. Wigggles
From Consumer Reports, Overall reliability versus other sporty cars:
Problem areas for the RX-8:
Compared to its competitors, 350z:
Sti:
S2000:
Miata:
I would say the RX-8 is much worse than the competition on "Minor" engine issues and slightly worse than average on "Major" ones. (I don't know if flooding would be considered an engine or fuel system problem.)
Anyway, I would say both of you guys are right. Yes, the Rensis has issues but it usually isn't catastrophic. However, the Renesis doesn't appear to be any better than its competition. And to be fair Fred, you are making claims without any hard numbers yourself; anecdotal evidence can prove any type of engine is good or a lemon.
Let the fighting continue...
-Mr. Wigggles
The rest of the failed 6 port Engine? well, the numbers are actually very very very VERY minor. I cant get any exact numbers (impossible for me to get any), but just by checking out all the RX8 forums around the world.
Then you'll know these :
AT cars with 1 Oil Cooler (Whole World)
AT 4-ports and MT 6 Ports thats within the USA market, I think this one has something to do with our wonderful 5w20, the rest of the world does not even have the MOP TSB thing, only we do. Why ? Think of it yourself.
I wouldnt say Renesis is doing any better than the rest of the market, but it certainly is not the root of the problem.
Last edited by nycgps; 02-11-2007 at 10:09 PM.
02-11-2007 | 10:15 PM
#28
Thread Starter
RX-8 = Japanese MG
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
From: Bay area, CA
My intent for this thread was neither to categorically excoriate nor praise the rotary per se. The FD guys seem to have struck a pretty good balance between big power and big problems.
I was genuinely hoping that people wouldn't get emotional and go asymptotic to the vertical. This car has its good points for sure, but it is a fact that we don't have the data to prove its long-term reliability in FI apps. We don't yet have the data to prove it isn't reliable in FI trim, either.
Maybe the high incidence of engine failure in NA trim that Mazda acknowledges (the search button is your friend) was simply due to inadequate oil flow at lower RPMs. Then again, maybe there are other problems too. How do we know the side port design is durable? We don't know one way or the other yet. That's a fact.
I was genuinely hoping that people wouldn't get emotional and go asymptotic to the vertical. This car has its good points for sure, but it is a fact that we don't have the data to prove its long-term reliability in FI apps. We don't yet have the data to prove it isn't reliable in FI trim, either.
Maybe the high incidence of engine failure in NA trim that Mazda acknowledges (the search button is your friend) was simply due to inadequate oil flow at lower RPMs. Then again, maybe there are other problems too. How do we know the side port design is durable? We don't know one way or the other yet. That's a fact.
02-11-2007 | 10:18 PM
#29
Originally Posted by SlideWayz
I just heard of yet another blown GReddy Renesis out here in the SF Bay area. It was running the new GReddy kit with the eManage Ultimate, stock boost, stock maps.
Theoretically, if the engine is well tuned it shouldn't substantially reduce its longevity. However, as others have pointed out, it does place more stress on it. Given that a lot of NA Renesis engines are failing, that makes FI even riskier.
Has anyone gotten over 50k miles on a boosted Renesis yet? I am starting to seriously doubt this engine can handle the extra power reliably.
Theoretically, if the engine is well tuned it shouldn't substantially reduce its longevity. However, as others have pointed out, it does place more stress on it. Given that a lot of NA Renesis engines are failing, that makes FI even riskier.
Has anyone gotten over 50k miles on a boosted Renesis yet? I am starting to seriously doubt this engine can handle the extra power reliably.
It has been PROVEN that the GReddy kit came with garbage plastic pipe(whats the word, I forgot), garbage undersize turbo thats over spinning too much, and at last, the garbage tunning.
You can fix the first one by replacing it with better ones, some silicone ones should do. Search around u'll see alot of post come up.
Second one, its a bit hard, the turbo itself IS undersize BUT with proper tunning, it should be able to do its job.
Last, BAD FREAKING TUNNING, I have no idea what are they thinking, but the stock tune freaking suck. I guess Greddy never really paid any special attention to it, and what they did was just alot of cover ups of their mistakes, E-Manage Blue was a damn joke, even EMU aint that good .... better than nothing of course. Look at the new kit, it even came with a BLOCKING plate, they hope that could solve their problem .... they gotta be kidding me.
Not to mention all other problems like too much oil going into the Turbo ? ahh
You just heard of anotehr blown Greddy in the SF bay Area? stock maps and stock kit ? No research and he just dump it in? He deserves it.
02-11-2007 | 10:21 PM
#30
Originally Posted by SlideWayz
My intent for this thread was neither to categorically excoriate nor praise the rotary per se. The FD guys seem to have struck a pretty good balance between big power and big problems.
I was genuinely hoping that people wouldn't get emotional and go asymptotic to the vertical. This car has its good points for sure, but it is a fact that we don't have the data to prove its long-term reliability in FI apps. We don't yet have the data to prove it isn't reliable in FI trim, either.
Maybe the high incidence of engine failure in NA trim that Mazda acknowledges (the search button is your friend) was simply due to inadequate oil flow at lower RPMs. Then again, maybe there are other problems too. How do we know the side port design is durable? We don't know one way or the other yet. That's a fact.
I was genuinely hoping that people wouldn't get emotional and go asymptotic to the vertical. This car has its good points for sure, but it is a fact that we don't have the data to prove its long-term reliability in FI apps. We don't yet have the data to prove it isn't reliable in FI trim, either.
Maybe the high incidence of engine failure in NA trim that Mazda acknowledges (the search button is your friend) was simply due to inadequate oil flow at lower RPMs. Then again, maybe there are other problems too. How do we know the side port design is durable? We don't know one way or the other yet. That's a fact.
It takes ALOT of time to tune something thats different. You Have to remember that.
FI will always kill the engine faster than NA, thats science. Most earlier N/A Rotary last over 200K without a sweat. I dont see anybody mention that.
We're not hating you or whatever, the reason you're getting these kind of *feedbacks* were due to the fact that you have nothing to back yourself up.
All you did was come up, and said *I heard another Greddy blew up, this engine sucks, it cant handle FI*
I find this funny actually, an engine that has been build from the ground up to be NA, people dump some turbo in it without any tune or fixes, when something happens they blame the engine, not themselfs. they actually trust whatever the FI company told them, in this case, it would be GReddy's *Plug and play* funny funny.
Last edited by nycgps; 02-11-2007 at 10:26 PM.
02-11-2007 | 11:27 PM
#31
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
- Antoine de Saint Exupery
From the factory the car was not designed for forced induction. So you bolt a turbo on and expect it to work? I am not saying the Renesis can not be supercharged. What I am saying is that if you are going to push something beyond what it is mechanically designed for in the first place you will have to fix all the weak links before hand.
The problems with rotary cars is not something new. It's been discussed here and at the 7 forums countless times. My first car that I made go fast was a mustang and I broke almost everything attached to the car including the windshield wipers!
If you want to go fast you got to pay to play. Not every price you pay is with your wallet. Experience and knowledge are the price as well.
Instead of arguing whether or not the Renesis can handle forced induction a more constructive topic would be "What are the weak links to the RX-8 and at what power levels do they appear?"
- Antoine de Saint Exupery
From the factory the car was not designed for forced induction. So you bolt a turbo on and expect it to work? I am not saying the Renesis can not be supercharged. What I am saying is that if you are going to push something beyond what it is mechanically designed for in the first place you will have to fix all the weak links before hand.
The problems with rotary cars is not something new. It's been discussed here and at the 7 forums countless times. My first car that I made go fast was a mustang and I broke almost everything attached to the car including the windshield wipers!
If you want to go fast you got to pay to play. Not every price you pay is with your wallet. Experience and knowledge are the price as well.
Instead of arguing whether or not the Renesis can handle forced induction a more constructive topic would be "What are the weak links to the RX-8 and at what power levels do they appear?"
02-12-2007 | 12:01 AM
#32
Originally Posted by SlideWayz
My intent for this thread was neither to categorically excoriate nor praise the rotary per se. The FD guys seem to have struck a pretty good balance between big power and big problems.
I was genuinely hoping that people wouldn't get emotional and go asymptotic to the vertical. This car has its good points for sure, but it is a fact that we don't have the data to prove its long-term reliability in FI apps. We don't yet have the data to prove it isn't reliable in FI trim, either.
Maybe the high incidence of engine failure in NA trim that Mazda acknowledges (the search button is your friend) was simply due to inadequate oil flow at lower RPMs. Then again, maybe there are other problems too. How do we know the side port design is durable? We don't know one way or the other yet. That's a fact.
I was genuinely hoping that people wouldn't get emotional and go asymptotic to the vertical. This car has its good points for sure, but it is a fact that we don't have the data to prove its long-term reliability in FI apps. We don't yet have the data to prove it isn't reliable in FI trim, either.
Maybe the high incidence of engine failure in NA trim that Mazda acknowledges (the search button is your friend) was simply due to inadequate oil flow at lower RPMs. Then again, maybe there are other problems too. How do we know the side port design is durable? We don't know one way or the other yet. That's a fact.
the data is moving as fast as it can. so someone else blew a greedy.. or some tunner said the rx8 motor should not be fi...
but others prove them wrong... btw, check the 350z forums for motor failures.. they happen....
SO WHAT WAS YOUR INTENT?
beers
02-12-2007 | 12:23 AM
#33
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
I am going to try to make this thread a little bit more constructive and I'm sure (and hope)other people will chime in to expand the topic. Also I apologize before hand for moving the thread a little off topic.
"What are the weak links to the RX-8 and at what power levels do they appear?"
Renesis: The engine itself seems to be more forgiving than any past rotary. The only thing I can recall wrong with it is coating failure and at the very beginning there was a big controversy on a chip developing on one of the ports.
Lubrication: Rotary engines in general need more detail to oil than piston engines. The weak points seem to be keeping the oil cool (AT owners have 1 oil cooler) and oil injection. Racing beat has the OMP modification to address that issue and we now have the SOHN oil adaptor. Also Greddy has a larger oil pan to increase the capacity of the oil which in turn increases heat capacity as well.
Cooling: Oil is already covered so I will cover water. The mazsport fan mod is available and the Racing beat flash does the same thing. This seems to be a must for any power level. Aftermarket radiators are available, but I am unsure at what power level they would be needed. Maybe someone more knowledgable can give a good answer.
Fuel: At 300 horsepower or so is the max the injectors can hold. Larger fuel injectors are out and can be used with an aftermarket EMS. The fuel pump can go up to ~400 horsepower but is not up to the task sometimes even on stock levels. Mostly during long left hand sweepers. This is being investigated by olddragger right now. Mazsport has a aftermarket fuel pump out right now that addresses the short comings of the factory system.
Ignition: Probably the area of the least support right now. The coils seem to go out without throwing a CEL. The sparkplugs seem to have short lifespans mostly from running too rich that is caused from cat protection and other problems that get compounded. There seems to be 2 options with coils. Replace the old coils with new OEM coils. Or use the AEM or HKS coil systems. The latter are still be researched. Also MazdaManiac said something to the effect that the timing will change with the aftermarket coil system.
EMS: There doesn't seem to be an ideal EMS solution. From the research MazdaManiac has done it seems the E-manage Ultimate and MicroTech based EMS's need alot of work and in some ways just are not good enough. Maybe he(or someone else knowledgable) can chime in because I do not want to give out bad information. He has written alot about both of them extensively already and if anyone new is reading this look up the following thread:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/interceptor-x-experiences-observations-mazdamaniac-101869/
Drivetrain: To my knowledge TeamRX8 and everyone from Puerto Rico have the most experience with the transmission. 2nd gear goes out when power levels go up or you use your car competively. The clutch also has a few cases of going out from the factory but it seems more like a defect then an actual problem.
Please expand on any and everything. I am sure I left out a few things. I do not think anyone who has had a blown engine has yet to cover all their bases yet. Also tuning goes hand in hand with an EMS.
"What are the weak links to the RX-8 and at what power levels do they appear?"
Renesis: The engine itself seems to be more forgiving than any past rotary. The only thing I can recall wrong with it is coating failure and at the very beginning there was a big controversy on a chip developing on one of the ports.
Lubrication: Rotary engines in general need more detail to oil than piston engines. The weak points seem to be keeping the oil cool (AT owners have 1 oil cooler) and oil injection. Racing beat has the OMP modification to address that issue and we now have the SOHN oil adaptor. Also Greddy has a larger oil pan to increase the capacity of the oil which in turn increases heat capacity as well.
Cooling: Oil is already covered so I will cover water. The mazsport fan mod is available and the Racing beat flash does the same thing. This seems to be a must for any power level. Aftermarket radiators are available, but I am unsure at what power level they would be needed. Maybe someone more knowledgable can give a good answer.
Fuel: At 300 horsepower or so is the max the injectors can hold. Larger fuel injectors are out and can be used with an aftermarket EMS. The fuel pump can go up to ~400 horsepower but is not up to the task sometimes even on stock levels. Mostly during long left hand sweepers. This is being investigated by olddragger right now. Mazsport has a aftermarket fuel pump out right now that addresses the short comings of the factory system.
Ignition: Probably the area of the least support right now. The coils seem to go out without throwing a CEL. The sparkplugs seem to have short lifespans mostly from running too rich that is caused from cat protection and other problems that get compounded. There seems to be 2 options with coils. Replace the old coils with new OEM coils. Or use the AEM or HKS coil systems. The latter are still be researched. Also MazdaManiac said something to the effect that the timing will change with the aftermarket coil system.
EMS: There doesn't seem to be an ideal EMS solution. From the research MazdaManiac has done it seems the E-manage Ultimate and MicroTech based EMS's need alot of work and in some ways just are not good enough. Maybe he(or someone else knowledgable) can chime in because I do not want to give out bad information. He has written alot about both of them extensively already and if anyone new is reading this look up the following thread:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/interceptor-x-experiences-observations-mazdamaniac-101869/
Drivetrain: To my knowledge TeamRX8 and everyone from Puerto Rico have the most experience with the transmission. 2nd gear goes out when power levels go up or you use your car competively. The clutch also has a few cases of going out from the factory but it seems more like a defect then an actual problem.
Please expand on any and everything. I am sure I left out a few things. I do not think anyone who has had a blown engine has yet to cover all their bases yet. Also tuning goes hand in hand with an EMS.
02-12-2007 | 02:41 AM
#34
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,232
Likes: 2
From: Houston
Originally Posted by nycgps
Wrong, it has been proven that the problem is within the insufficient oil lubatation (Mazda TSB) and insufficient oil cooling (Most of them are AT cars with 1 oil cooler)
"Add a big oil pan, fix the oil heating problem, improve the overall cooling, increase the injectors, improve the ignition, and tweak the EMS and then the engine will be fine."
The above statement could be said for any well built Japanese engine; However, I personally consider most of those mentioned items as part of the engine. If you consider the engine to just be the rotors and the case then I guess your right; those rarely fail unless something else fails ... with the engine.
-Mr. Wigggles
Last edited by MrWigggles; 02-12-2007 at 02:43 AM.
02-12-2007 | 02:54 AM
#35
Originally Posted by MrWigggles
So if you do everything right with the Renesis you won't blow it? You're probably right, but that can be said for just about any engine.
"Add a big oil pan, fix the oil heating problem, improve the overall cooling, increase the injectors, improve the ignition, and tweak the EMS and then the engine will be fine."
The above statement could be said for any well built Japanese engine; However, I personally consider most of those mentioned items as part of the engine. If you consider the engine to just be the rotors and the case then I guess your right; those rarely fail unless something else fails ... with the engine.
-Mr. Wigggles
"Add a big oil pan, fix the oil heating problem, improve the overall cooling, increase the injectors, improve the ignition, and tweak the EMS and then the engine will be fine."
The above statement could be said for any well built Japanese engine; However, I personally consider most of those mentioned items as part of the engine. If you consider the engine to just be the rotors and the case then I guess your right; those rarely fail unless something else fails ... with the engine.
-Mr. Wigggles
read his past posts......
note. the first greedy kit, was bad.
the next was less bad.. mm, and maddog helped fix the kits....
this is not a motor issue, it is learning how to tune the motor issue... it is new...
thanks to those that are able to figure it out for the rest of us tards...
knowledge is power. and mm has my vote.
beers :beers:
02-12-2007 | 08:07 AM
#36
Originally Posted by HeavyMetal699
"What are the weak links to the RX-8 and at what power levels do they appear?"
.
Over that will only suit those that have especially deep pockets & are willing to accept other compromises to the vehicles reliability/driveability.
02-12-2007 | 02:34 PM
#37
Thread Starter
RX-8 = Japanese MG
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
From: Bay area, CA
HeavyMetal, thanks for helping me get this thread back on track.
When I had my Renesis rebuilt, it got ported, bigger injectors, RB oil pump mod, racing clutch, and a stand-alone EMS with full control of fuel, spark, and boost. It already had the bigger oil pan.
The fuel pump and fan mods sound worthwhile too. An additional oil cooler and more cooling capacity from the radiator would be good, but I haven't seen enough data on these to know what to buy or how to install them.
What I really wish for is low compression rotors, but no one has commercialized them yet and it's way too expensive to get one-offs built.
Are all the other engine internals solid enough? The 3 mm apex seals are way expensive since they have to be custom machined to fit the Renesis. Would they really make that much of a difference anyway? A few really hard pings under boost would probably snap them just like the 2 mm ones. What about the bearings, seals, and other components? They haven't been stress tested enough yet. Could there be asymmetric thermal stress caused by the side port design itself?
When I had my Renesis rebuilt, it got ported, bigger injectors, RB oil pump mod, racing clutch, and a stand-alone EMS with full control of fuel, spark, and boost. It already had the bigger oil pan.
The fuel pump and fan mods sound worthwhile too. An additional oil cooler and more cooling capacity from the radiator would be good, but I haven't seen enough data on these to know what to buy or how to install them.
What I really wish for is low compression rotors, but no one has commercialized them yet and it's way too expensive to get one-offs built.
Are all the other engine internals solid enough? The 3 mm apex seals are way expensive since they have to be custom machined to fit the Renesis. Would they really make that much of a difference anyway? A few really hard pings under boost would probably snap them just like the 2 mm ones. What about the bearings, seals, and other components? They haven't been stress tested enough yet. Could there be asymmetric thermal stress caused by the side port design itself?
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