water/methanol injection
#53
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#54
Original Turbo 'd Auto !!
here is one of them, http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=11
I don't remember the other one.
I don't remember the other one.
#55
BDC Motorsports
Sorry to hijack. No solenoids here.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=809559&page=9
The power of alcohol!
B
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=809559&page=9
The power of alcohol!
B
#57
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Wowsers Brian! 22 psi and only 95*F intake temps on a 78* day without an intercooler!!! Awesome! I love how AIT's go down as boost goes up. That's pretty cool. What I find really interesting is how once you're at about 1 bar of boost, AIT's stay basically the same even when boost continues to go up. This can't happen forever of course but it's still quite curious. I don't know of an air/air intercooler anywhere that can hold AIT's to within 20 degrees of ambient at over 20 psi. Nice work.
#58
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If you have an intercooler that is 50% efficient and a turbo that produces 40° above ambient temps at 9 PSI on its 75% efficiency island, it will produce exactly the same 20° above ambient IAT anywhere on that efficiency island, regardless of Pr.
#59
BDC Motorsports
This is a baseless statement.
If you have an intercooler that is 50% efficient and a turbo that produces 40° above ambient temps at 9 PSI on its 75% efficiency island, it will produce exactly the same 20° above ambient IAT anywhere on that efficiency island, regardless of Pr.
If you have an intercooler that is 50% efficient and a turbo that produces 40° above ambient temps at 9 PSI on its 75% efficiency island, it will produce exactly the same 20° above ambient IAT anywhere on that efficiency island, regardless of Pr.
B
#61
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So you've never seen outlet temps on a 20 PSI app that were only 20° above ambient?
What the hell kind of turbos are you using?
Of course, if you are primarily reaching into the outer reaches of the flow map, you will see higher temps.
But that will happen at 4 PSI on the wrong turbo.
Boost pressure has nothing to do with charge temps if you are in the prime efficiency range of a turbo.
#62
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20 psi == pressure ratio 2.4
Temperature gain: (PR ^ .28 - 1) * Tabs
70 degF ambient = 530 Tabs
Thermodynamics demands *at least* 147 degF temperature rise and no turbo is 100% adiabatic efficient.
#64
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This is a baseless statement.
If you have an intercooler that is 50% efficient and a turbo that produces 40° above ambient temps at 9 PSI on its 75% efficiency island, it will produce exactly the same 20° above ambient IAT anywhere on that efficiency island, regardless of Pr.
If you have an intercooler that is 50% efficient and a turbo that produces 40° above ambient temps at 9 PSI on its 75% efficiency island, it will produce exactly the same 20° above ambient IAT anywhere on that efficiency island, regardless of Pr.
However if you think it can be done Jeff, go do it. I want to see you run 20+ psi with only an air/air intercooler and I want to see your IAT's at only 20* F more than ambient. Results speak for themselves. No results are just words. Just remember, Brian's statements came after his results proved it and not before. Here's your chance to go prove you're right though! It shouldn't be that hard. Go out, do some runs, and post your logs. When we see your numbers at that boost level with only that much temperature rise, then you're point will be proven. Until then, it isn't happening.
#65
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Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
You left out the intercooler
This is a baseless statement.
If you have an intercooler that is 50% efficient and a turbo that produces 40° above ambient temps at 9 PSI on its 75% efficiency island, it will produce exactly the same 20° above ambient IAT anywhere on that efficiency island, regardless of Pr.
If you have an intercooler that is 50% efficient and a turbo that produces 40° above ambient temps at 9 PSI on its 75% efficiency island, it will produce exactly the same 20° above ambient IAT anywhere on that efficiency island, regardless of Pr.
75% adiabatic efficiency will produce turbo outlet temps still dependent on pressure ratio. I think you're forgetting that adiabatic efficiency is a measure of how much *more* the temperature rises above the thermodynamic minimum. The minimum temperature rise (that of a 100% adiabatic efficiency) is determined by pressure ratio.
Proof:
50.% efficient intercooler, 9.0 psi boost, 75% adiabatic efficiency will yield precisely 51degF temp rise at 70.degF ambient. (1.612^.28 - 1) * 530 * 1/.75 * 50/100
50% efficient intercooler, 20 psi boost, 75% adiabatic efficiency will yield precisely
96degF temp rise. (2.360^.28 - 1) * 530 * 1/.75 * 50/100
96 degF is not equal to 51 degF
#69
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No, not really. You're wrong here.
Guess what causes flow? Pressure differential. Pressure differential is boost. Its really not that complicated.
Where the heck did this comment come from anyway? It really kind of smells like a setup for a straw-man style logical fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Sort of like when a discussion about torque needs to be derailed, mention how its really supposed to be about power and vice versa. Very predictable and entertaining, but nobody's falling for it.![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Instead of bringing up this flow vs. boost nonsense, refute the math or the gas-laws brought up proving that previous deduction you made about IAT's and adiabatic efficiencies wrong. Please.
Guess what causes flow? Pressure differential. Pressure differential is boost. Its really not that complicated.
Where the heck did this comment come from anyway? It really kind of smells like a setup for a straw-man style logical fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Sort of like when a discussion about torque needs to be derailed, mention how its really supposed to be about power and vice versa. Very predictable and entertaining, but nobody's falling for it.
![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Instead of bringing up this flow vs. boost nonsense, refute the math or the gas-laws brought up proving that previous deduction you made about IAT's and adiabatic efficiencies wrong. Please.
![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#72
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The only problem with that is that the theory that would be thrown out here is one thats worked in almost every other application of compressible gases since it was formulated 200 years ago. But, yes, maybe -- just maybe -- we've found an exception here on rx8club.com to thermodynamic law on piston motors with big turbo's. But somehow, I really doubt it.
I really don't think you're trying to B.S. us, but I do think either 1) you only have a marketeers understanding of what adiabatic efficiency is about or 2) you abandoned what should have been a healthy skepticism of your measurements and formulated and peddled wrong conclusions on air temperatures as it relates to intercoolers/FI as a result. In other words -- classic "intellectual laziness"
#73
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Jeff just back up your statements and show your datalogs. That's a very simple and easy request and there's really zero excuse not to post them to prove a statement. If your logs back it up, cool! Hard to argue with that. Your car has a turbo and you know the compressor map and obviously know what boost level you can run. You can very easily datalog things as you do it all the time. Forget 22 psi. I'll be happy seeing a temp gain over ambient with even a 10 psi run. Let's actually see it firsthand all backed up with results. It's a good learning experience. This should be nothing more difficult than going outside, doing a few runs, and then posting the results. I've seen Brian's as they have been made public and I've got to say, we just won't see an air/air setup that comes anywhere remotely close to doing what he is with methanol injection. I love the fact that he shares what he learns. That's how it should be. Helping others learn and improve is a good thing.
Now saying that, it doesn't mean that aux injection is the be all end all when it comes to what should be run in everyone's cars. Not saying that at all. There's a time and place for everything. Same thing even holds true with superchargers but we won't get into that here.
Now saying that, it doesn't mean that aux injection is the be all end all when it comes to what should be run in everyone's cars. Not saying that at all. There's a time and place for everything. Same thing even holds true with superchargers but we won't get into that here.
#74
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one thing we have found is that yea we can get the lower intake temps down BELOW ambient with our w/m systems--no prob--but it takes an amount that kills top hp to do so. Understand I am speaking of substained temps on the track ---not a short street run.
It is possible to overcool an intake charge![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
OD
It is possible to overcool an intake charge
![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
OD