16X missing performance and fuel economy targets
10-21-2009 | 09:45 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Registered
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
16X missing performance and fuel economy targets
From http://www.autoweek.com/article/2009...OKYO/910209982
The next-generation rotary engine from Mazda, unveiled at the 2007 Tokyo show under the code-name 16X, does not meet sufficient performance and fuel economy guidelines the automaker requires for a production model.
Seita Kanai, Mazda Motor head of R&D, said work continues to be done to improve the rotary's thirsty nature.
The 16X demonstrated the possibility, but that performance is not good enough. We are doing r&d which will incorporate more new technology, Kanai said.
The code name refers to the increase in the current engine's displacement, from the current 1.3 liters to 1.6 liters. The 16X was to be finished in time for the next-generation RX-8 sports car, to be launched in 2012 or so.
When unveiled in 2007, the 16X enlarged the elliptical shape of the combustion chamber, and enlarged the rotor's eccentric center stroke. Mazda also planned direct injection fuel delivery in a rotary engine for the first time. However, Mazda also noted that the changed shape would affect the combustion process of the air-fuel mixture.
Kanai declined to say whether it's back to the drawing board for the 16X.
The 16X is more a profile of a rotary still in our concept stage, Kanai said. It needs more evolution.
The next-generation rotary engine from Mazda, unveiled at the 2007 Tokyo show under the code-name 16X, does not meet sufficient performance and fuel economy guidelines the automaker requires for a production model.
Seita Kanai, Mazda Motor head of R&D, said work continues to be done to improve the rotary's thirsty nature.
The 16X demonstrated the possibility, but that performance is not good enough. We are doing r&d which will incorporate more new technology, Kanai said.
The code name refers to the increase in the current engine's displacement, from the current 1.3 liters to 1.6 liters. The 16X was to be finished in time for the next-generation RX-8 sports car, to be launched in 2012 or so.
When unveiled in 2007, the 16X enlarged the elliptical shape of the combustion chamber, and enlarged the rotor's eccentric center stroke. Mazda also planned direct injection fuel delivery in a rotary engine for the first time. However, Mazda also noted that the changed shape would affect the combustion process of the air-fuel mixture.
Kanai declined to say whether it's back to the drawing board for the 16X.
The 16X is more a profile of a rotary still in our concept stage, Kanai said. It needs more evolution.
10-21-2009 | 09:55 AM
#2
Should I say "duh" ? Forget about the other "outsider's", In Japan alone Mazda is already far far far far FAR behind the competitions.
I think in order for 16x to get some "good performance" numbers. I think they have to incorporate more exotic material. Aluminum side and int plate is a good start. but Look at the not really that big Nissan, they have been using Aluminum ALLOY for quite some time.
Mazda doesnt want to repeat the RX-8's "semi-failure". so ... its gonna be a while b4 Mazda release Another Rotary, 2012 is kinda early if u ask me, I say 2014 is the earliest
I think in order for 16x to get some "good performance" numbers. I think they have to incorporate more exotic material. Aluminum side and int plate is a good start. but Look at the not really that big Nissan, they have been using Aluminum ALLOY for quite some time.
Mazda doesnt want to repeat the RX-8's "semi-failure". so ... its gonna be a while b4 Mazda release Another Rotary, 2012 is kinda early if u ask me, I say 2014 is the earliest
Last edited by nycgps; 10-21-2009 at 10:15 AM.
10-21-2009 | 09:58 AM
#3
Hrm. Nowhere does it mention when these statements were said. The article was last updated today, but the only other date reference is the 2007 auto show....2 years ago.
I would be inclined to call this rumor or theory without anything more solid.
I would be inclined to call this rumor or theory without anything more solid.
10-21-2009 | 11:01 AM
#4
The article is dated from today, in the URL. Or at least was posted today.
It seems pretty likely that a reporter spoke to mazda's R&D guy at the show today/yesterday and got those responses. Was anyone really expecting this engine to be available before 2012/2013?
It seems pretty likely that a reporter spoke to mazda's R&D guy at the show today/yesterday and got those responses. Was anyone really expecting this engine to be available before 2012/2013?
10-21-2009 | 11:20 AM
#5
Yeah, that would be an assumption. The problem is, it doesn't say that, and it is only referencing the 2007. It makes the article appear very dated, even though it isn't, especially in contrast to the already existing public comment from Mazda stating a 30% more fuel efficient rotary recently. Maybe they don't feel that +30% isn't enough, and their internal goals are even higher. His comments don't mean that it isn't ready or isn't an improvement, just that it hasn't (as of whenever it was actually said) met their internal goals.
10-21-2009 | 12:36 PM
#7
the enemy in the mirror
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
From: billerica, ma
my wish list:
all aluminum (include the sides + rotors)
or maybe 'later' timing for the DI setup (instead of the 'mild' way-btdc one)
overall i think the new dimensions are a-ok.
between the two i pick aluminum.
far out wish:
a new center design that would make n-rotor setups easier (aka center bearing, etc) down the line. Maybe have a bit more space for the exhaust ports, too?
changing the dimensions gives them a bit of a clean sheet to fix more things that would be left due to cost/redundancy in the 13* series engines.
get it right an make this overall design last 30 years!
all aluminum (include the sides + rotors)
or maybe 'later' timing for the DI setup (instead of the 'mild' way-btdc one)
overall i think the new dimensions are a-ok.
between the two i pick aluminum.
far out wish:
a new center design that would make n-rotor setups easier (aka center bearing, etc) down the line. Maybe have a bit more space for the exhaust ports, too?
changing the dimensions gives them a bit of a clean sheet to fix more things that would be left due to cost/redundancy in the 13* series engines.
get it right an make this overall design last 30 years!
10-21-2009 | 09:57 PM
#8
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
Repost..
I agree with nycgps, I cant see any new rotary now on the horizon..
As I said in another post we should be seeing more about the 16X and even a body at the TMS...NOW!!!.
Yes we viewed the Taiki, but the 16X was a dog from what I have been told, it would overheat and emissions were way too high for the next decade.
OH well...back to the drawing board..it could be quite a wait.
If you are thinking a new rotary, IMO you have about 18 months before the 8 finishes.
I cant see Mazda redesigning the rear end for the new US collision regs for the 2011-12 MY
2012 is the MY for the new MX-5/Miata.
I agree with nycgps, I cant see any new rotary now on the horizon..
As I said in another post we should be seeing more about the 16X and even a body at the TMS...NOW!!!.
Yes we viewed the Taiki, but the 16X was a dog from what I have been told, it would overheat and emissions were way too high for the next decade.
OH well...back to the drawing board..it could be quite a wait.
If you are thinking a new rotary, IMO you have about 18 months before the 8 finishes.
I cant see Mazda redesigning the rear end for the new US collision regs for the 2011-12 MY
2012 is the MY for the new MX-5/Miata.
10-21-2009 | 10:18 PM
#9
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
MAZDA Tokyo Motor Show site up!
http://www.mazda.com/motorshow/
http://www.mazda.com/motorshow/
10-21-2009 | 10:32 PM
#10
my wish list:
all aluminum (include the sides + rotors)
or maybe 'later' timing for the DI setup (instead of the 'mild' way-btdc one)
overall i think the new dimensions are a-ok.
between the two i pick aluminum.
far out wish:
a new center design that would make n-rotor setups easier (aka center bearing, etc) down the line. Maybe have a bit more space for the exhaust ports, too?
changing the dimensions gives them a bit of a clean sheet to fix more things that would be left due to cost/redundancy in the 13* series engines.
get it right an make this overall design last 30 years!
all aluminum (include the sides + rotors)
or maybe 'later' timing for the DI setup (instead of the 'mild' way-btdc one)
overall i think the new dimensions are a-ok.
between the two i pick aluminum.
far out wish:
a new center design that would make n-rotor setups easier (aka center bearing, etc) down the line. Maybe have a bit more space for the exhaust ports, too?
changing the dimensions gives them a bit of a clean sheet to fix more things that would be left due to cost/redundancy in the 13* series engines.
get it right an make this overall design last 30 years!
its just that the production cost will be too high (for their targeted MSRP) So they stick with Cast Iron.
but now, more and more companies are moving on to more exotic material/process. I guess its time for Mazda to move outa Cast Iron too. Its cheap"er" but its heavy and doesnt transfer heat fast enough.
Last edited by nycgps; 10-21-2009 at 11:23 PM.
10-21-2009 | 10:34 PM
#11
The first link was english to me...
Reading it now, alot of repetition in phrases. Although this bit
...is one indication that they haven't given up on the rotary. Granted, petrol is better for enthusiasts, but I have to believe that there are still lessons and development learnings from a rotary powered by hydrogen. Since they have gas as an alternative fuel as well, I'm sure this is the case. Mass market too. Also a series hybrid, which is awesome. Fairly controlled RPM, heat, and cooling ranges from being a hybrid has to teach them something, from what I feel anyway. Lots of consumer data on it should be generated.
Reading it now, alot of repetition in phrases. Although this bit
Mazda has now commercialized two models powered by the hydrogen rotary engine: the RX-8 Hydrogen RE and Premacy Hydrogen RE Hybrid.
Since 2007, we have also been collaborating in HyNor (Hydrogen Road of Norway), a national project to promote and expand the hydrogen infrastructure of Norway. First overseas leasing has begun in Norway in 2009.
Since Mazda's hydrogen rotary engine uses hydrogen fuel, it offers exceptional environmental performance with zero CO2 emissions. In addition, should the hydrogen fuel run out, a convenient dual-fuel system enables the vehicle to immediately switch to gasoline. The Premacy Hydrogen RE Hybrid exhibited at this year's Tokyo Motor Show has a series hybrid system. A hydrogen rotary engine connected to a generator produces electricity, which is used by an electric motor to drive the wheels.
Since 2007, we have also been collaborating in HyNor (Hydrogen Road of Norway), a national project to promote and expand the hydrogen infrastructure of Norway. First overseas leasing has begun in Norway in 2009.
Since Mazda's hydrogen rotary engine uses hydrogen fuel, it offers exceptional environmental performance with zero CO2 emissions. In addition, should the hydrogen fuel run out, a convenient dual-fuel system enables the vehicle to immediately switch to gasoline. The Premacy Hydrogen RE Hybrid exhibited at this year's Tokyo Motor Show has a series hybrid system. A hydrogen rotary engine connected to a generator produces electricity, which is used by an electric motor to drive the wheels.
10-21-2009 | 11:26 PM
#12
For some reason, Plug-In car doesnt make sense to me. I drive around the city a lot and it sucks that I have to charge it every so often. Sure a "Gas" station with 330 Volt plugs can charge it to 80% in 30 minutes. but, 30 minutes ? and how fast can we charge it with our pathetic 110v 60 Hz outlet ? seriously.
Hydrogen might not make sense now, it still needs a lot of work, someday it might make sense.
Hydrogen might not make sense now, it still needs a lot of work, someday it might make sense.
10-21-2009 | 11:59 PM
#13
It's the most abundant element in the freaking universe, as far as we know. We have to make it work!
Until we can *efficiently* harness that power... the technology behind it in cars will stay where it is today.
Until we can *efficiently* harness that power... the technology behind it in cars will stay where it is today.
Last edited by alz0rz; 10-22-2009 at 09:48 PM.
10-22-2009 | 02:52 PM
#15
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
For some reason, Plug-In car doesnt make sense to me. I drive around the city a lot and it sucks that I have to charge it every so often. Sure a "Gas" station with 330 Volt plugs can charge it to 80% in 30 minutes. but, 30 minutes ? and how fast can we charge it with our pathetic 110v 60 Hz outlet ? seriously.
Hydrogen might not make sense now, it still needs a lot of work, someday it might make sense.
Hydrogen might not make sense now, it still needs a lot of work, someday it might make sense.
Yep, that is one issue your forefather's got wrong..not enough Juice.
10-22-2009 | 09:03 PM
#16
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
Taiki 16X
Not sure if you guys have seen the Mazda Taiki vid with the 16X engine...
This vid was done when in Australia...
Check out the indicator lights that actually shine through the body work, and the dash tacho is SICK!...
[EMBED]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/w5NLMg33vMI&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf& feature=player_profilepage&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/w5NLMg33vMI&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf& feature=player_profilepage&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/EMBED]
This vid was done when in Australia...
Check out the indicator lights that actually shine through the body work, and the dash tacho is SICK!...
[EMBED]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/w5NLMg33vMI&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf& feature=player_profilepage&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/w5NLMg33vMI&rel=0&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf& feature=player_profilepage&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/EMBED]
10-23-2009 | 01:11 AM
#19
Come on man, after all the 20w50 haters post. Answer is obvious.
0w10 all the way !!!
Who cares about science ! All people cared these days are what "Manufacture recommends !!!" .... yeah right ... next minute I know they do their oil change in their backyard ...
0w10 all the way !!!
Who cares about science ! All people cared these days are what "Manufacture recommends !!!" .... yeah right ... next minute I know they do their oil change in their backyard ...
10-23-2009 | 06:25 PM
#21
Super Moderator
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
In the REAR....look closely..
Not sure if this has been posted yet..
Report: 2012 Mazda RX-8 to be Evolutionary, Not Revolutionary
"With the rotary's aforementioned aversion to fuel-economy, torque and emissions laws, though, it'll be a tough sell. The fact that Mazda already has a two-seat sports car in the Miata and a rotary-powered sports car in the RX-8 makes a third sports car that essentially combines the other two a tough proposition, especially in these cash-strapped times"
http://wot.motortrend.com/6584246/au...ary/index.html
Not sure if this has been posted yet..
Report: 2012 Mazda RX-8 to be Evolutionary, Not Revolutionary
"With the rotary's aforementioned aversion to fuel-economy, torque and emissions laws, though, it'll be a tough sell. The fact that Mazda already has a two-seat sports car in the Miata and a rotary-powered sports car in the RX-8 makes a third sports car that essentially combines the other two a tough proposition, especially in these cash-strapped times"
http://wot.motortrend.com/6584246/au...ary/index.html
10-24-2009 | 09:46 AM
#22
and even more troubling 16 mpg city/22 mpg highway
And for the record, I just returned a rented PT Cruiser for this business trip, where it burned 8 gallons over 163 miles. Yes, 20.3mpg. Yet, I can't find a single review that complains about it's poor gas mileage for a small 4 banger. *
GET OFF THE MILEAGE COMPLAINT ALREADY AND LEARN TO BUY A SPORTS CAR
*Note: To be fair, I can't find a single review outside of these boards that mentions it's other drawbacks either:
So I landed in BWI this morning, take the shuttle over to the rental car facility, find they didn't actually get me a car for my reservation, and....
...end up with a PT Cruiser. First time driving one, and here are a few of the text messages I was trading shortly after driving it:
- They gave me a PT Cruiser. I'm crying inside. Outside too.
- After 5 minutes, I got to 70mph and could visibly see the shaking of the steering wheel
- The Corolla may be boring, but there is a certain adrenaline excitement from not knowing if your next breath will be your last as your vehicle throws itself into the trees off the highway
- I keep checking behind me for the trailer it feels like I'm pulling. I haven't seen it yet, but the only thing I can think of that would be worth hauling is a car defibrillator
- I brought my radar detector with me, but I feel hooking it up where other people can see it is too embarrassing
- The pleasant feeling and knowledge of turning heads as I drive by in my 8 has been replaced by the certain knowledge that the only thing I am turning is stomachs. Including mine. I'm nauseous.
- The tires squeal like a stuck pig before I even start turning the flimsy steering wheel. Filing their objection before I even get a chance to persuade them to point the car where I want it to go.
- The suspension is actually quite stiff, not what I expected. About the same as my 8. Although my 8's suspension compliments it's handling and promotes control, this one is more like a 200 year old wooden roller coaster badly needing maintenance.
- There is a deceptive surge of power when you take your foot off the brake and nail the gas. The surge lasts for less than one rotation of the tires.
- The gas pedal seems to have been designed as a subliminal message to avoid hitting it too hard. The first 5% feels like you are pushing against a bag of cotton *****, the last 95% is a stronger spring than my 8's clutch.
- I think I have a pair of cats under my front wheels. Every time I even tap the brakes, I hear something crying.
- I want to crash this thing as my good deed for the day.
...end up with a PT Cruiser. First time driving one, and here are a few of the text messages I was trading shortly after driving it:
- They gave me a PT Cruiser. I'm crying inside. Outside too.
- After 5 minutes, I got to 70mph and could visibly see the shaking of the steering wheel
- The Corolla may be boring, but there is a certain adrenaline excitement from not knowing if your next breath will be your last as your vehicle throws itself into the trees off the highway
- I keep checking behind me for the trailer it feels like I'm pulling. I haven't seen it yet, but the only thing I can think of that would be worth hauling is a car defibrillator
- I brought my radar detector with me, but I feel hooking it up where other people can see it is too embarrassing
- The pleasant feeling and knowledge of turning heads as I drive by in my 8 has been replaced by the certain knowledge that the only thing I am turning is stomachs. Including mine. I'm nauseous.
- The tires squeal like a stuck pig before I even start turning the flimsy steering wheel. Filing their objection before I even get a chance to persuade them to point the car where I want it to go.
- The suspension is actually quite stiff, not what I expected. About the same as my 8. Although my 8's suspension compliments it's handling and promotes control, this one is more like a 200 year old wooden roller coaster badly needing maintenance.
- There is a deceptive surge of power when you take your foot off the brake and nail the gas. The surge lasts for less than one rotation of the tires.
- The gas pedal seems to have been designed as a subliminal message to avoid hitting it too hard. The first 5% feels like you are pushing against a bag of cotton *****, the last 95% is a stronger spring than my 8's clutch.
- I think I have a pair of cats under my front wheels. Every time I even tap the brakes, I hear something crying.
- I want to crash this thing as my good deed for the day.
10-24-2009 | 01:59 PM
#23
corvette 29mpg highway, or almost 33 if you granny it.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog...s/4320856.html
miata 30mpg
elise 30+mpg
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f3/l...-33-mpg-23725/
cayman 27mpg
so there you have it. i do a LOT of highway driving. in fact, 80% of my driving is highway. over a tank of gas i see 17-18mpg.
that is just PITIFUL for the power out.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog...s/4320856.html
miata 30mpg
elise 30+mpg
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f3/l...-33-mpg-23725/
cayman 27mpg
so there you have it. i do a LOT of highway driving. in fact, 80% of my driving is highway. over a tank of gas i see 17-18mpg.
that is just PITIFUL for the power out.
10-24-2009 | 05:33 PM
#25
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
From: Sacramento, CA
Direct combustion injection is a horrible idea for the rotary. You'd be scooping carbon directly into the injectors every rotation. Bad Idea.
Aluminum would work well if you could get the aluminum to oxidize internally to give it a thin layer of super strength. (welders know what I'm refering to)
Although I must say. The car is made out of aluminium. So shouldn't they be buying it in bulk anyways?
I honestly think they need to look into the atomization of the fuel as it enters the combustion chamber and look for a much leaner mixture. Possibly also look at the gear ratios as it runs to the back tire.
Aluminum would work well if you could get the aluminum to oxidize internally to give it a thin layer of super strength. (welders know what I'm refering to)
Although I must say. The car is made out of aluminium. So shouldn't they be buying it in bulk anyways?
I honestly think they need to look into the atomization of the fuel as it enters the combustion chamber and look for a much leaner mixture. Possibly also look at the gear ratios as it runs to the back tire.