PhillipM

Why? he extra pressure is just from the resistance to flow from the thicker oil, it's not actually helping you.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

wish my oil pressure gauge was already in.
If we are generally getting 75psi at 3K with the thicker oil--I think we have a problem?
A lot of oil is not being filtered as it should be?
Maybe we are getting some foaming in the oil pan from the relief valve dumping so much?
Glad I run diesel oil.
OD

kennyfrc1

iTrader: (6)

Have you been reading this thread or looking for shreds of evidence to support your opinion on how you think oil works?

kennyfrc1

iTrader: (6)

Me too

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

I let Paul answer the question

Thanks

Seriously, why so stubborn ? Using a higher viscosity oil WONT FREAKING KILL YOU. This is to Everybody !

ayrton012

Very true.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

No offense, but you're sounding like a broken record, this has been discussed more than needed. While higher viscosity won't kill you, there is a thing as overkill going to the thickest one can get. You want to stick with 20w-50 fine, some of us prefer and believe there is better performance and cooling for the engine using something thinner such as 0w-30/40. What's the matter with going to something that a trickle thinner than the thickest out there (not counting straight 50w)? IT WON'T FREAKING KILL YOU. To each their own.

ayrton012

He wrote that higher pressure helps cooling.

...and cooling (more flow) helps oil thickening, so higher pressure working for us, like in the S2.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Very.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

Higher pressure being related to the pump , not thicker oil. Thicker oil gives you higher pressure readings, but this doesn't mean you're getting more oil to the engine at all and in most cases only increases temperature.

This thread is alike to the other where in conclusion we reached a few points; that the apex seals are not sufficiently lubricated and should have AP to bump up the oil feed and/or premix. This is the root problem, not the viscosity. I also wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the wear is from poor start up lubrication as RG noted initially which would have one resort to warming up the engine before getting on it and a lower weight oil for better start up (0w)

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

You are exactly right sir. There are several issues that have to be addressed, not just oil thickness.

bse50

Actually those threads started with something in mind: bearing wear. I didn't see the seals mentioned too much.
Heavier weights than the stock 5w20 \ 5w30 (europe) won't kill you and that's true. Again there's the usual balancing that we have to do between our temperature range and car use.
Provided that a thermal pellet bypass would be helpful i think that we may refer to the european manual that states the different oil weights for the different temperatures. Something that the us\canadian manual doesn't.
Something that works for me (10w40) may be not the best oil for somebody living in Alaska

Diesel oil, group IV synthetics etc all have their pros, now we should all sit and talk what the "consensus" may be regarding oil weights etc. Something with a higher viscosity, as i said, should work better than the original oil but how much is too much? I'm not only talking about cold lubricating properties and viscosity but about the OMPs. Couldn't a 20w50 oil be too dense to be properly injected, compared to a 5w30 for instance?
So... where's the right compromise from where we can start and adjust to our own and individual necessities?

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

cooling? what cooling?

Do you have a gauge ?

Hmm. my gauge must be broken ... must be ... Cuz my gauge telling me the same thing 5w20 and 20w50

and performance? rofl. seriously. 0.5 hp? for how many times the strength ?

I think its worth the trade offs.

yes higher pressure helps cooling, but its "NOT" needed for most of us.

but are we on S2? I know Im not. even S2, 20w50 will work on it just fine. Go look up the Chart.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

What I'm seeing is being attempting multiple solution then claiming it's cause and effect for the combination where one change alone could possibly solve most if not all the issues.

For example if in theory the rotary had the injectors placed in a more efficient position with more adequate pressure, then I believe 5w-20 would work fine with changes up to 5k miles. Reality is, it's not although it's much better in Series II engiens although the debate of course is, is it enough? We won't know until we get some feedback years down the road how many failures occurred with people running the normal 5w-20.

So we're really talking different approaches and solutions to fix the Series 1 poor design. People are claiming the oil is the problem yet we have people with proper experience who work on these things for a living all tending to agree that it's the lack of oil and improper position of the oil being fed to the Apex Seals which from what I grasped has caused the majority if not all engine failures for the Rotary.

Why we keep forgetting this 2 pages later and then people going back to the viscosity theory claiming it is the problem/solution is beyond me.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Good points my brother. Too heavy is just as bad as too light in my opinion. I am looking at jumping up to a 0W-40 and I have even tossed around the idea of a 0W-50(doubtful though because its so hard to find locally) but I will be injecting premix through the SOHN so I don't have to worry about the OMP but that is a very good point.

For me a perfect fit is:

0W-40
Premix in the tank
Premix injected VIA the SOHN
3k (no higher) oil changes
93 octane high quality fuel and regular use of FP or the like.

I also have plans for upgraded oil cooling. Stay tuned!!

bse50

Vlaze,
as you've stated we only see a part of the problem. In your case, with no offence intended, you're just trying to solve the chamber lubrication part. What about the rotor bearings?
There a different oil and a thermal pellet modification could lend to good results, don't you agree?

@9krpmrx8: Nice points, i use a 10w40 as previously stated because my car never sees high temps and the little extra cold viscosity could, in theory, help slowing down the e-shaft emptying when you turn off the car. At least when you turn it off and re-use it after hours

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

I'm not sure, maybe your gauge is broken? Going from 0w-30 to 0w-40 showed 0.5 bar increase under cruise conditions for my pressure. My temperature tends to be at 160F averagely contrast to 150F at 0w-30.

I mentioned performance in regards to better engine efficiency, not power. Sure, 20w-50 is stronger, see how well that works when an engine is trying to turn over which most of us agree that also leads to a lot of wear.

Let's agree that we disagree which oil we want to run. Acting like your choice should be THE choice and the holy grail is delusional. We want to fix the root cause, not compensate for it. The root cause of engine failure is not from the viscosity, but from a lack of oil being fed. Premixing and/or AP helps address this.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

For rotor bearings like what was stated on the first few pages, it's believed to be not a common occurrence. As to why they were damaged as they were, although RG believed it was lack of lubrication at start up it's hard to say without doing a full study. This is more complicated than the apex seals but at least the main problem is not the bearings most of the time but rather is the seals which tends to be straight forward for the problem/solution for the most part.

In theory I would think if one side of a bearing was worn then perhaps there was something out of tolerance or such to position the bearing to experience the wear on that one side instead of it being caused because of the design. In other words, I think it might of been a fluke or rather, a lemon. Again we're dealing with insufficient information here since this is not a common problem that people or rather, the builders have had to experience and deal with to compose linkage between cause and effect.

PhillipM

I know how oil flow works thanks, I design dampers for a living, all you are doing with the 50w oils is cracking the bypasses open earlier in the rev. range, I personlly, don't think that's a good idea, but each to their own.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

PhillipM is correct. Having higher viscosity in order to increase pressure is through resistance to flow and can actually cause more heat. Everyone needs to be careful with the info that is being put here and not jump too quickly to conclusions.

Too much information can be a bad thing sometimes. Slow down, my intelligent people .

Paul.

PhillipM

It's the usual case of lots of information but not enough data to correlate it at the minute.


While I'm here, I'm sure I've asked this before, but I think I've deleted the email, but could you PM me with a price on a water pump + shipping to the UK?

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

I'll have Sheldon send you a quote within minutes. I only have 3 pumps left and will be out for the next 2 to 3 weeks after those.

Paul.

PhillipM

Not a problem, we've only got one event left next weekend and then it's back in the workshops over winter for a teardown anyway.
Hopefully I can get the springs sizes and installations then so we check those differences over, we need to find out why the S1 is running the oil pressure it runs first before we alter it really. No good playing with things if you don't know the reasoning behind it first.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

More than likely they had some concern over integrity of hoses, lines or coolers but we haven't seen a problem in any situation or condition.

Paul.

PhillipM

Could well be, in which case they won't bother me, so more flow it is...