5W30 Oil Don't Cut it, Engine Bearing Pics 58K S1 RX-8 from England.
11-09-2009, 09:17 AM
#551
As Flashwing has stated, we are all just taking shots in the dark right now anyway. To me the only thing we can say with any certainty, after all the discussions on the two threads, is 1) there are some curious, but not-yet-understood, differences between older rotaries, the S1, and the S2 from an oil system standpoint, and 2) If you run 5w20 or 5w30 dino oils be very careful about your OCI. Everything else is speculation, and I find far to much to be stated as fact.
George
11-09-2009, 11:19 AM
#554
the truth of the matter is that we shouldnt even be having an internet conversation concerning this issue. But the fact of the matter is because of the number of engine failures this community experiences, and the bearing wear we are seeing----we are.
I truely believe Mazda knew the engine failures were coming (for more than one reason)---so the warrenty extension, the engine plant that was built etc. Kudos for Mazda in doing that , but shame on them for taking 5 yrs to get to the redisign and leaving the older models on their own after 100K.
Once again --just to be clear--its NOT a heavier viscosity we may need. Its not an increased oil pressure that we may need. Its an increase in the oil's film strenght and flow we are thinking that may be needed.
Unless you get into increasing the capacity of oil passageways etc the only way to increase oil flow is to increase the amount of oil flowing through the system. So.........
My thoughts are:
1- Increase the film strenght of the oil. A heavier weight oil ususally has a higher film strenght, but not always.
2- increase the systems oil flow by modifing the internal bypass valves. An effect of this is you will see an increase in the oil pressure. The oil pressure will increase regardless of the wgt of oil you are using. You simply cause more of the oil that the pump is sending out to go through the lubrication system rather than being diverted back to the oil pan.
Data remains to be collected 1st.
olddragger
I truely believe Mazda knew the engine failures were coming (for more than one reason)---so the warrenty extension, the engine plant that was built etc. Kudos for Mazda in doing that , but shame on them for taking 5 yrs to get to the redisign and leaving the older models on their own after 100K.
Once again --just to be clear--its NOT a heavier viscosity we may need. Its not an increased oil pressure that we may need. Its an increase in the oil's film strenght and flow we are thinking that may be needed.
Unless you get into increasing the capacity of oil passageways etc the only way to increase oil flow is to increase the amount of oil flowing through the system. So.........
My thoughts are:
1- Increase the film strenght of the oil. A heavier weight oil ususally has a higher film strenght, but not always.
2- increase the systems oil flow by modifing the internal bypass valves. An effect of this is you will see an increase in the oil pressure. The oil pressure will increase regardless of the wgt of oil you are using. You simply cause more of the oil that the pump is sending out to go through the lubrication system rather than being diverted back to the oil pan.
Data remains to be collected 1st.
olddragger
11-09-2009, 11:36 AM
#555
OD:
I don't think there is anything wrong with having the conversation - indeed I expect that, eventually, some good will come of it. If nothing else, those who care will have a better understanding of how the oil system works, and who knows - a simple change may be found that extends the life of the motor. Maybe not; we may also find that it's fine as-is. But in general I like to see the process of discovery happen publicly.
It's the premature conclusions that get me. No offense to Ash, but, for example, the title of this thread is misleading - at best, it should say "Dino 5w30 w/20 km OCI Questionable" or something of the sort.
Also, have there been any documented engine failures caused by the bearings? I agree the wear is eyebrow-raising, but it seems to me the bearing wear isn't the main problem with our motors, and we should be focused more on the seals.
I don't think there is anything wrong with having the conversation - indeed I expect that, eventually, some good will come of it. If nothing else, those who care will have a better understanding of how the oil system works, and who knows - a simple change may be found that extends the life of the motor. Maybe not; we may also find that it's fine as-is. But in general I like to see the process of discovery happen publicly.
It's the premature conclusions that get me. No offense to Ash, but, for example, the title of this thread is misleading - at best, it should say "Dino 5w30 w/20 km OCI Questionable" or something of the sort.
Also, have there been any documented engine failures caused by the bearings? I agree the wear is eyebrow-raising, but it seems to me the bearing wear isn't the main problem with our motors, and we should be focused more on the seals.
11-09-2009, 12:29 PM
#556
This argument is quite flawed. In fact, I'm quite certain in the earlier parts of the thread the higher engine speed has been used to justify the thicker oil. But now, you are telling us to ignore wear on start-up, as well as wear in the last 1,000 rpm? Common sense states that these two events are the most demanding from a lubrication standpoint, and what do we tell people? A buzzer a day keeps the carbon away? Let's be realistic - most of us do push our cars farther than 8k on a daily basis. Even if it's only brief, if your 50w oil is cavitating at 8500 rpm, you have a problem where the inertial loads are at their highest.
FD's Redline is 8K, many people go 9K rpm for more than 50K miles and still seeing close to no wear on the Bearing and they use at least 10w40 and 20w50 most of the time. If Cavitation was an issue, we should see the wear, right? but nope, I dont see it. Dont forget they're all boosted, some were beat up like **** everyday.
Look at the other thread, Rx-7 142K miles on a 12A, you know how old that engine is? even the housing and all other stuff were fucked up, but the bearing and e-shaft still looks good and looks re-usable.
So ... startup protection what? cavitation hmm ?
I suppose one thing we can all agree on is that Mazda's reccomendation for 5w20 wasn't driven by engineering. But jumping from that to stating that 15w50 is necessary to ensure the long life of your engine is a leap of faith at this point. Sure, forced induction/track guys can and should play by their own rules. But for a typical owner on the street? This seems like a highly dubious reccomendation right now.
As Flashwing has stated, we are all just taking shots in the dark right now anyway. To me the only thing we can say with any certainty, after all the discussions on the two threads, is 1) there are some curious, but not-yet-understood, differences between older rotaries, the S1, and the S2 from an oil system standpoint, and 2) If you run 5w20 or 5w30 dino oils be very careful about your OCI. Everything else is speculation, and I find far to much to be stated as fact.
George
George
- Highest Compression to date 10:1
- Highest output to date "250/238/232" hp on NA
- 5w20 ???
- Certain internals have changed. E-shaft for example, its interchangeable for almost all 13b and 12A, but the Renesis one is the lightest of all, about 0.6 lbs lighter, better Geometry, etc. Might effect some outputs/results.
11-09-2009, 01:01 PM
#557
Shonen
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My 2 cents:
Seems like our RX-8's production are inconsistent. Some users have good mpg, and others don't. Some have engine break down, some last way over expectation. All of this conversation is a mute point because of this perception. A prime example is a colleague of mine that just passed 100K with regular schedule maintenance and BONE stock parts. She does not rev pass 7K, 5w20 dino-oil, and after diagnostic testing from Mazda dealership, was told her engine's result indicates it is like "brand new." This is a 2005 Sport RX-8: sole owner.
So, with that in mind, I'll go about doing what I normally do and not worry too much about this type of stuff. Maybe I have the same builder/assembler as she did...if not, **** happens and life goes on...
Seems like our RX-8's production are inconsistent. Some users have good mpg, and others don't. Some have engine break down, some last way over expectation. All of this conversation is a mute point because of this perception. A prime example is a colleague of mine that just passed 100K with regular schedule maintenance and BONE stock parts. She does not rev pass 7K, 5w20 dino-oil, and after diagnostic testing from Mazda dealership, was told her engine's result indicates it is like "brand new." This is a 2005 Sport RX-8: sole owner.
So, with that in mind, I'll go about doing what I normally do and not worry too much about this type of stuff. Maybe I have the same builder/assembler as she did...if not, **** happens and life goes on...
11-09-2009, 01:27 PM
#558
My 2 cents:
Seems like our RX-8's production are inconsistent. Some users have good mpg, and others don't. Some have engine break down, some last way over expectation. All of this conversation is a mute point because of this perception. A prime example is a colleague of mine that just passed 100K with regular schedule maintenance and BONE stock parts. She does not rev pass 7K, 5w20 dino-oil, and after diagnostic testing from Mazda dealership, was told her engine's result indicates it is like "brand new." This is a 2005 Sport RX-8: sole owner.
So, with that in mind, I'll go about doing what I normally do and not worry too much about this type of stuff. Maybe I have the same builder/assembler as she did...if not, **** happens and life goes on...
Seems like our RX-8's production are inconsistent. Some users have good mpg, and others don't. Some have engine break down, some last way over expectation. All of this conversation is a mute point because of this perception. A prime example is a colleague of mine that just passed 100K with regular schedule maintenance and BONE stock parts. She does not rev pass 7K, 5w20 dino-oil, and after diagnostic testing from Mazda dealership, was told her engine's result indicates it is like "brand new." This is a 2005 Sport RX-8: sole owner.
So, with that in mind, I'll go about doing what I normally do and not worry too much about this type of stuff. Maybe I have the same builder/assembler as she did...if not, **** happens and life goes on...
So unless your friend knows exactly what the numbers are, dont trust their words.
11-09-2009, 01:35 PM
#559
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Well, is it In "Your Opinion" mate....and please do not put words into my mouth, if you can't comprehend the point of what I am saying AFTER all that has been said..
I have not said or suggesting to "Ignore Wear"?? have I ? or start up wear..have I?....where do you get off making a statement that what I said is flawed???
The Reality is there are 3 things on the RX-8 that have change in the last 3 decades, Oil , RPM and Side Exhaust Porting.
As I have pointed out everything else is between 15 and 30 years old, most parts are the latter...no one here knew that, the only other change that owners can alter is oil and how they drive their car.
By far the largest issue Mazda Dealers are seeing in Australia and the world are these that owners are not Revving their cars high enough/ Carbon issues.
Again my point is the MAJORITY of owners don't use the higher rev band..
Yes on a HOT engine a Redline a day (HOT ENGINE) "Helps"...repeat Helps keep the Carbon away...a little, it does not stop it, I will say it again, the "time" in the higher rev range is Very Little.
As far as your "leap of faith", rather than throwing out your comments, you and others have not Physically Shown anything to back the use of Lower Viscosity Oils...NOTHING....every engine I have seen naked has had Bearing Wear...every one.. Go and LOOK at the 12A engine from a S1 RX-7 that has done 150K.
3 times the distance of most RX-8's with remarkable low wear, same bearings, same clearances, same oil pressure, different Oil.
I will say it again, seeing is believing, and experience is also everything than "armchair experts", from what I have seen and heard from those who rebuild Rotaries, particularly the RENESIS, 5W20 and 30 do not cut it with an oil pressure system made and designed 30 years ago for higher Viscosity oils.
SPECULATION WHAT are you for real, so we DON'T believe what Mazda Parts Manuals say, we Don't BELIEVE what MAZDA Workshop Manuals say...these are FACTS NOT SPECULATION!
Why have Mazda increased the OP in S2 by 50% in E-shaft, because of 5W20/30 oil.
I have not said or suggesting to "Ignore Wear"?? have I ? or start up wear..have I?....where do you get off making a statement that what I said is flawed???
The Reality is there are 3 things on the RX-8 that have change in the last 3 decades, Oil , RPM and Side Exhaust Porting.
As I have pointed out everything else is between 15 and 30 years old, most parts are the latter...no one here knew that, the only other change that owners can alter is oil and how they drive their car.
By far the largest issue Mazda Dealers are seeing in Australia and the world are these that owners are not Revving their cars high enough/ Carbon issues.
Again my point is the MAJORITY of owners don't use the higher rev band..
Yes on a HOT engine a Redline a day (HOT ENGINE) "Helps"...repeat Helps keep the Carbon away...a little, it does not stop it, I will say it again, the "time" in the higher rev range is Very Little.
As far as your "leap of faith", rather than throwing out your comments, you and others have not Physically Shown anything to back the use of Lower Viscosity Oils...NOTHING....every engine I have seen naked has had Bearing Wear...every one.. Go and LOOK at the 12A engine from a S1 RX-7 that has done 150K.
3 times the distance of most RX-8's with remarkable low wear, same bearings, same clearances, same oil pressure, different Oil.
I will say it again, seeing is believing, and experience is also everything than "armchair experts", from what I have seen and heard from those who rebuild Rotaries, particularly the RENESIS, 5W20 and 30 do not cut it with an oil pressure system made and designed 30 years ago for higher Viscosity oils.
SPECULATION WHAT are you for real, so we DON'T believe what Mazda Parts Manuals say, we Don't BELIEVE what MAZDA Workshop Manuals say...these are FACTS NOT SPECULATION!
Why have Mazda increased the OP in S2 by 50% in E-shaft, because of 5W20/30 oil.
This argument is quite flawed. In fact, I'm quite certain in the earlier parts of the thread the higher engine speed has been used to justify the thicker oil. But now, you are telling us to ignore wear on start-up, as well as wear in the last 1,000 rpm? Common sense states that these two events are the most demanding from a lubrication standpoint, and what do we tell people? A buzzer a day keeps the carbon away? Let's be realistic - most of us do push our cars farther than 8k on a daily basis. Even if it's only brief, if your 50w oil is cavitating at 8500 rpm, you have a problem where the inertial loads are at their highest.
I suppose one thing we can all agree on is that Mazda's reccomendation for 5w20 wasn't driven by engineering. But jumping from that to stating that 15w50 is necessary to ensure the long life of your engine is a leap of faith at this point. Sure, forced induction/track guys can and should play by their own rules. But for a typical owner on the street? This seems like a highly dubious reccomendation right now.
As Flashwing has stated, we are all just taking shots in the dark right now anyway. To me the only thing we can say with any certainty, after all the discussions on the two threads, is 1) there are some curious, but not-yet-understood, differences between older rotaries, the S1, and the S2 from an oil system standpoint, and 2) If you run 5w20 or 5w30 dino oils be very careful about your OCI. Everything else is speculation, and I find far to much to be stated as fact.
George
I suppose one thing we can all agree on is that Mazda's reccomendation for 5w20 wasn't driven by engineering. But jumping from that to stating that 15w50 is necessary to ensure the long life of your engine is a leap of faith at this point. Sure, forced induction/track guys can and should play by their own rules. But for a typical owner on the street? This seems like a highly dubious reccomendation right now.
As Flashwing has stated, we are all just taking shots in the dark right now anyway. To me the only thing we can say with any certainty, after all the discussions on the two threads, is 1) there are some curious, but not-yet-understood, differences between older rotaries, the S1, and the S2 from an oil system standpoint, and 2) If you run 5w20 or 5w30 dino oils be very careful about your OCI. Everything else is speculation, and I find far to much to be stated as fact.
George
11-09-2009, 01:47 PM
#560
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
This 12A e-shaft is almost Perfect after 150K (Miles), recommended oil then was 20W50.
I never pay attention to start-up wear. Cuz in my opinion, its just a load of bs and a way for oil companies to sell that "Uber 1337 0/5w weight oil cuz it protects ya the best" same **** as what those oil companies made people to think that "Premium Fuel cleans engine better ... cuz its Premium!"
FD's Redline is 8K, many people go 9K rpm for more than 50K miles and still seeing close to no wear on the Bearing and they use at least 10w40 and 20w50 most of the time. If Cavitation was an issue, we should see the wear, right? but nope, I dont see it. Dont forget they're all boosted, some were beat up like **** everyday.
Look at the other thread, Rx-7 142K miles on a 12A, you know how old that engine is? even the housing and all other stuff were fucked up, but the bearing and e-shaft still looks good and looks re-usable.
So ... startup protection what? cavitation hmm ?
Well, like I've said b4, again and again, just get a load of ppl (me included) to use 20w50 all the way. open the engine up after say, 50K miles. then we will have an answer.
There are few things that are different, just to name a few
- Highest Compression to date 10:1
- Highest output to date "250/238/232" hp on NA
- 5w20 ???
- Certain internals have changed. E-shaft for example, its interchangeable for almost all 13b and 12A, but the Renesis one is the lightest of all, about 0.6 lbs lighter, better Geometry, etc. Might effect some outputs/results.
FD's Redline is 8K, many people go 9K rpm for more than 50K miles and still seeing close to no wear on the Bearing and they use at least 10w40 and 20w50 most of the time. If Cavitation was an issue, we should see the wear, right? but nope, I dont see it. Dont forget they're all boosted, some were beat up like **** everyday.
Look at the other thread, Rx-7 142K miles on a 12A, you know how old that engine is? even the housing and all other stuff were fucked up, but the bearing and e-shaft still looks good and looks re-usable.
So ... startup protection what? cavitation hmm ?
Well, like I've said b4, again and again, just get a load of ppl (me included) to use 20w50 all the way. open the engine up after say, 50K miles. then we will have an answer.
There are few things that are different, just to name a few
- Highest Compression to date 10:1
- Highest output to date "250/238/232" hp on NA
- 5w20 ???
- Certain internals have changed. E-shaft for example, its interchangeable for almost all 13b and 12A, but the Renesis one is the lightest of all, about 0.6 lbs lighter, better Geometry, etc. Might effect some outputs/results.
11-09-2009, 01:55 PM
#561
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
OD:
I don't think there is anything wrong with having the conversation - indeed I expect that, eventually, some good will come of it. If nothing else, those who care will have a better understanding of how the oil system works, and who knows - a simple change may be found that extends the life of the motor. Maybe not; we may also find that it's fine as-is. But in general I like to see the process of discovery happen publicly.
It's the premature conclusions that get me. No offense to Ash, but, for example, the title of this thread is misleading - at best, it should say "Dino 5w30 w/20 km OCI Questionable" or something of the sort.
Also, have there been any documented engine failures caused by the bearings? I agree the wear is eyebrow-raising, but it seems to me the bearing wear isn't the main problem with our motors, and we should be focused more on the seals.
I don't think there is anything wrong with having the conversation - indeed I expect that, eventually, some good will come of it. If nothing else, those who care will have a better understanding of how the oil system works, and who knows - a simple change may be found that extends the life of the motor. Maybe not; we may also find that it's fine as-is. But in general I like to see the process of discovery happen publicly.
It's the premature conclusions that get me. No offense to Ash, but, for example, the title of this thread is misleading - at best, it should say "Dino 5w30 w/20 km OCI Questionable" or something of the sort.
Also, have there been any documented engine failures caused by the bearings? I agree the wear is eyebrow-raising, but it seems to me the bearing wear isn't the main problem with our motors, and we should be focused more on the seals.
Can you answer this SPECULATION!....
WHY are MNAO replacing EVERY ROTOR (Two), and EVERY STATIONARY GEAR Assembly (TWO) in EVERY, I repeat, EVERY engine they are RE-Building????
Don't know???...Don't want to speculate...If you cant answer it your rotary knowledge is questionable..
11-09-2009, 02:27 PM
#563
And, as to your other posts, I am not in any way attempting to pass myself off as an expert on lubrication design in general or the needs of the S1 in particular. I'm only pointing out that there is both evidence & expert opinion that does not back up the need for heavy oil in the S1, and that it is premature to state that as fact. It does not take an expert to recognize this. Just a rational thinker.
When I see a preponderance of evidence and/or opinions from recognized engine builders, I will change my mind. But until then I will continue to run 5w30 synthetic. The fact that my best guess is different than yours is acceptable to me. But they are both guesses.
11-09-2009, 02:48 PM
#564
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
So, you still have not answered my question as to why MNAO are replacing all rotors and Stat gear bearings??...
Because the bearings are Kaput, stuffed, can't be reused..
And also because Mazda Japan will not risk US workers to press-out bearings and press in new tubes because if they don't do it correctly the additional cost of re-re building is greater than the cost of Rotors and Stat Gears (with the bearings already fitted at factory).
Why they would discard perfectly good rotors and stationary gears in just a waste, but I understand their reasons, NO good re-builder would do this.
AS far as "recognized engine builders", Mr. E from Mazmart is one who does not like the lower V oils, because he see's the damage... when compared to 13B REW, and FC engines and other rotaries that use the "same" bearings, he has also re-built.
Umm, lets see, every naked engine posted here has had this bearing wear, including the UK.
If you believe the 0-5W's are good for the S1 rotary, I suggest you start a thread and show YOUR Evidence....??
Because the bearings are Kaput, stuffed, can't be reused..
And also because Mazda Japan will not risk US workers to press-out bearings and press in new tubes because if they don't do it correctly the additional cost of re-re building is greater than the cost of Rotors and Stat Gears (with the bearings already fitted at factory).
Why they would discard perfectly good rotors and stationary gears in just a waste, but I understand their reasons, NO good re-builder would do this.
AS far as "recognized engine builders", Mr. E from Mazmart is one who does not like the lower V oils, because he see's the damage... when compared to 13B REW, and FC engines and other rotaries that use the "same" bearings, he has also re-built.
Umm, lets see, every naked engine posted here has had this bearing wear, including the UK.
If you believe the 0-5W's are good for the S1 rotary, I suggest you start a thread and show YOUR Evidence....??
Last edited by ASH8; 11-09-2009 at 03:03 PM.
11-09-2009, 02:54 PM
#565
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
I agree the increase in pressure is likely do to the thin oil but at the same time I think 20W-50 is overboard. We will see who blow their motor first, me or NYCGPS. We both got new motors around the same time, we both premix, and we are both **** about vehicle maintenance (okay well not cleanliness NYCGPS 
) but I am running 0W-30.
) but I am running 0W-30.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 11-09-2009 at 02:59 PM.
11-09-2009, 02:59 PM
#566
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
The fact that my best guess is different than yours is acceptable to me. But they are both guesses.
Do not Include ME in your Guess, and I am not Guessing, I am using Mazda's own GENUINE Parts Catalogs and Mazda's Japan printed Workshop Manuals, and my Mazda experience as a former Mazda Parts Manager, seller wholesaler and retailer.
As I said if you went into any Mazda Parts Dealer and asked for S1 RX-8 Engine Parts you would be supplied the exact same ones used in a 30 yo FC RX-7 (in regard to this subject matter)....facts not fiction.
Last edited by ASH8; 11-09-2009 at 03:06 PM.
11-09-2009, 03:02 PM
#567
Paul said that 5w20 is probably not a good idea, which most people will agree with. He also said it was premature to reccomend 50w oil, if I recall correctly.
That leave 30 & 40 weight.
As for why MNAO is replacing what they do, you are right, I have no insight into their reasoning, since I do not work there. I'm glad that they are - I'd hate to think they are putting reman motors out there with used parts that are considered consumables. Having said that, I'm sure they have seen that worn bearings are more common on this motor than past motors. So it just makes sense to replace all bearings, to be safe. But we still don't know the cause of that wear.
Plus, there are plenty of posts that show high milage cars around. There was even a post in the first page of this thread from somebody who as looked inside several Renesis motors from Italy and said that the wear shown in this thread is not common in his experience.
And, I see no need to start a new thread. You have publicly asserted that 5w30 "won't cut it" and it is reasonable that you will be publicly called to task on that. Surely you understand that?
That leave 30 & 40 weight.
As for why MNAO is replacing what they do, you are right, I have no insight into their reasoning, since I do not work there. I'm glad that they are - I'd hate to think they are putting reman motors out there with used parts that are considered consumables. Having said that, I'm sure they have seen that worn bearings are more common on this motor than past motors. So it just makes sense to replace all bearings, to be safe. But we still don't know the cause of that wear.
Plus, there are plenty of posts that show high milage cars around. There was even a post in the first page of this thread from somebody who as looked inside several Renesis motors from Italy and said that the wear shown in this thread is not common in his experience.
And, I see no need to start a new thread. You have publicly asserted that 5w30 "won't cut it" and it is reasonable that you will be publicly called to task on that. Surely you understand that?
11-09-2009, 03:05 PM
#568
OK, I'll bite again on the parts-list argument. I'm still waiting to hear the outside diameter of the bearing surface on the eshaft of the S1. Is it's nominal dimension & tolerancing, from a manufacturing standpoint, the same as the older designs? This is a critical part of understanding the oiling needs, if I am not mistaken.
11-09-2009, 03:06 PM
#569
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Mate, the Thread Title is "in order"...
Can you answer this SPECULATION!....
WHY are MNAO replacing EVERY ROTOR (Two), and EVERY STATIONARY GEAR Assembly (TWO) in EVERY, I repeat, EVERY engine they are RE-Building????
Don't know???...Don't want to speculate...If you cant answer it your rotary knowledge is questionable..
Can you answer this SPECULATION!....
WHY are MNAO replacing EVERY ROTOR (Two), and EVERY STATIONARY GEAR Assembly (TWO) in EVERY, I repeat, EVERY engine they are RE-Building????
Don't know???...Don't want to speculate...If you cant answer it your rotary knowledge is questionable..
BHR performs the exact same practice on a smaller scale. When we get Ignition Upgrade kits back from customers (either returns or buybacks) we typically replace the wiring harness and spark plug terminals. It's cheaper for us than shipping out a kit and having something fail and dealing with another return.
It also lowers the risk of a PR disaster from the kit failing. Mazda is also trying to nurse their rotary reputation back to health and they are thinking about the next rotary engine product. Reputation has done a lot of damage to this car.
How else can you explain why BHR has encounted many situations where we've been able to reuse bearings and other parts that are within Mazda's specifications? There had to be at least 1 motor that was rebuild that could have had it's parts reused.
The fact that the policy is applied to all engines shows it has nothing to do with the parts themselves or their state of wear but rather a move to protect against future warranty claims and protect the company's reputation.
11-09-2009, 03:16 PM
#570
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
The answer is very simple. Those items are being replaced in order to minimize any possible future warranty claims. If you think about the cost associated with pulling the engine, shipping it out and then rebuilding it...MNAO no doubt realizes the risks are too high to reuse parts that could result in a failure.
BHR performs the exact same practice on a smaller scale. When we get Ignition Upgrade kits back from customers (either returns or buybacks) we typically replace the wiring harness and spark plug terminals. It's cheaper for us than shipping out a kit and having something fail and dealing with another return.
It also lowers the risk of a PR disaster from the kit failing. Mazda is also trying to nurse their rotary reputation back to health and they are thinking about the next rotary engine product. Reputation has done a lot of damage to this car.
How else can you explain why BHR has encounted many situations where we've been able to reuse bearings and other parts that are within Mazda's specifications? There had to be at least 1 motor that was rebuild that could have had it's parts reused.
The fact that the policy is applied to all engines shows it has nothing to do with the parts themselves or their state of wear but rather a move to protect against future warranty claims and protect the company's reputation.
BHR performs the exact same practice on a smaller scale. When we get Ignition Upgrade kits back from customers (either returns or buybacks) we typically replace the wiring harness and spark plug terminals. It's cheaper for us than shipping out a kit and having something fail and dealing with another return.
It also lowers the risk of a PR disaster from the kit failing. Mazda is also trying to nurse their rotary reputation back to health and they are thinking about the next rotary engine product. Reputation has done a lot of damage to this car.
How else can you explain why BHR has encounted many situations where we've been able to reuse bearings and other parts that are within Mazda's specifications? There had to be at least 1 motor that was rebuild that could have had it's parts reused.
The fact that the policy is applied to all engines shows it has nothing to do with the parts themselves or their state of wear but rather a move to protect against future warranty claims and protect the company's reputation.
Don't bring in ignition coils..there is NO comparison in Costs, and Rebuilders do not replace these assemblies (unless Seal Damage) they press out the bearings in both cases...and Clean the Rotors..
"Nothing to do with wear" so I guess the Guy who works there is wrong...
11-09-2009, 03:26 PM
#571
3-wheeler
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OMG Flash, there is nothing wrong with the ROTORS or the Stationary GEARS, Unless an apex seal has broken or side seal...it is because of the bearings, they won't press them out because of what I said.
Don't bring in ignition coils..there is NO comparison in Costs, and Rebuilders do not replace these assemblies (unless Seal Damage) they press out the bearings in both cases...and Clean the Rotors..
"Nothing to do with wear" so I guess the Guy who works there is wrong...
Don't bring in ignition coils..there is NO comparison in Costs, and Rebuilders do not replace these assemblies (unless Seal Damage) they press out the bearings in both cases...and Clean the Rotors..
"Nothing to do with wear" so I guess the Guy who works there is wrong...
11-09-2009, 03:38 PM
#573
I agree the increase in pressure is likely do to the thin oil but at the same time I think 20W-50 is overboard. We will see who blow their motor first, me or NYCGPS. We both got new motors around the same time, we both premix, and we are both **** about vehicle maintenance (okay well not cleanliness NYCGPS ) but I am running 0W-30.
) but I am running 0W-30.
Bumper is painted (but not install yet ... need to put clear bra on), once its installed, I'll make sure its sparrrrrkkkkllliinnnGGGGGG clean !
next thing I know some haters gonna come out like OH TX is hotter and they might die sooner/NE is cold as #@$% 20w50 frozen up ~~~
Last edited by nycgps; 11-09-2009 at 04:01 PM.
11-09-2009, 03:41 PM
#574
To be fair, you are correct - I have not seen you say that start-up wear is unimportant. Nycgps has been saying that, and I've lumped you together. That was inaccurate and I apologize.
And, as to your other posts, I am not in any way attempting to pass myself off as an expert on lubrication design in general or the needs of the S1 in particular. I'm only pointing out that there is both evidence & expert opinion that does not back up the need for heavy oil in the S1, and that it is premature to state that as fact. It does not take an expert to recognize this. Just a rational thinker.
When I see a preponderance of evidence and/or opinions from recognized engine builders, I will change my mind. But until then I will continue to run 5w30 synthetic. The fact that my best guess is different than yours is acceptable to me. But they are both guesses.
And, as to your other posts, I am not in any way attempting to pass myself off as an expert on lubrication design in general or the needs of the S1 in particular. I'm only pointing out that there is both evidence & expert opinion that does not back up the need for heavy oil in the S1, and that it is premature to state that as fact. It does not take an expert to recognize this. Just a rational thinker.
When I see a preponderance of evidence and/or opinions from recognized engine builders, I will change my mind. But until then I will continue to run 5w30 synthetic. The fact that my best guess is different than yours is acceptable to me. But they are both guesses.
and where is the OH MY GOD 5w super start up protection ? Hmm and also the "xw20" part that "some super duper experts" claim that it is enough/better for high revving engines. hmm ... Damn that 50 K Renesis bearing pic came up to my mind again
Start up wear to me =
Thats just me tho, you dont have to agree.
everybody has their own opinion
Last edited by nycgps; 11-09-2009 at 03:46 PM.
11-09-2009, 04:03 PM
#575
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
next thing I know some haters gonna come out like OH TX is hotter and they might die sooner/NE is cold as #@$% 20w50 frozen up ~~~
BTW, how many miles are on your new motor? I'm almost at 5,000 miles.