Allright what's the truth about oil
04-19-2010 | 12:27 AM
#26
Alright im just kidding but the type of oil is subjective really...
04-19-2010 | 01:02 AM
#29
3-wheeler
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,734
Likes: 0
From: Phoenix
The "great debate" about oil is spawned from the same issues the debates for pre-mix face. That is, there is no smoking gun when it comes to oils. There are no seriously bad oils and there are no oils which will do everything well. The other problem is from a consumer standpoint it's impossible to do any kind of testing beyond what the manufacturer releases which isn't much.
Every once in a while you'll see oil tests conducted but advances in technology and standards means those tests are null and void. Even if you could duplicate a testing scenario, for the RX8 as an example, you wouldn't be able to produce anything that would mimic the behavior of your average driver. So you might produce results but it wouldn't be anything you could use other than in an intellectual discussion.
I'd say the best thing you can do is simply educate yourself on how to properly read oil labels and be able to articulate why you buy the oil that you do. Don't simply buy oil because it's used in NASCAR or because your buddy told you to buy it. Know for yourself.
Every once in a while you'll see oil tests conducted but advances in technology and standards means those tests are null and void. Even if you could duplicate a testing scenario, for the RX8 as an example, you wouldn't be able to produce anything that would mimic the behavior of your average driver. So you might produce results but it wouldn't be anything you could use other than in an intellectual discussion.
I'd say the best thing you can do is simply educate yourself on how to properly read oil labels and be able to articulate why you buy the oil that you do. Don't simply buy oil because it's used in NASCAR or because your buddy told you to buy it. Know for yourself.
04-21-2010 | 05:46 AM
#34
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
......well this is not "the truth" actually. Mazda has this oil specially made by Total, to their own formula, and you cannot buy it in the US. Doesn't mean that it's an endorsement by Mazda for ANY synthetic, only for their own design. Anyway, I think you are missing the point because the base oil makes little or no difference to this engine's performance, and especially on this engine where you have no shear surfaces, just a few bearings on the "crankshaft", some scraper rings and of course the fabulous apex seals which don't actually require oil film, but the metal additives that are put into the oil to reduce friction, the oil is just the carrier. The other missed point is that these synthetics are developed for environmental reasons not performance per se.
That's just my view of course, and the main reason I don't use any kind of synthetic, but whaddaIknow in this sea of experts@!
That's just my view of course, and the main reason I don't use any kind of synthetic, but whaddaIknow in this sea of experts@!
04-21-2010 | 05:54 AM
#35
I just want to say this. Never use Quakersludge, Pencrap, or Kendall oils. Horrible oils.
Valvoline, Castrol, Amsoil, and Royal Purp is all I use, on everything, period.
Valvoline, Castrol, Amsoil, and Royal Purp is all I use, on everything, period.
04-21-2010 | 10:15 AM
#36
Ayrton Senna Forever
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
Likes: 1
From: Europe
......well this is not "the truth" actually. Mazda has this oil specially made by Total, to their own formula, and you cannot buy it in the US. Doesn't mean that it's an endorsement by Mazda for ANY synthetic, only for their own design. Anyway, I think you are missing the point because the base oil makes little or no difference to this engine's performance, and especially on this engine where you have no shear surfaces, just a few bearings on the "crankshaft", some scraper rings and of course the fabulous apex seals which don't actually require oil film, but the metal additives that are put into the oil to reduce friction, the oil is just the carrier. The other missed point is that these synthetics are developed for environmental reasons not performance per se.
That's just my view of course, and the main reason I don't use any kind of synthetic, but whaddaIknow in this sea of experts@!
That's just my view of course, and the main reason I don't use any kind of synthetic, but whaddaIknow in this sea of experts@!
The Mazda Dexelia 5w-30 is a Total make, and that is not synthetic.
I'm not missing the point, maybe you. A full synth oil has the advantage on mineral oil even (or mainly) in the Renesis. For example these are not thinning so much like the minerals with wear, and it is not bad in the Renesis, where are thinning is a real problem...and there are other good things about synths, but I don't want to open a new oil thread..
...and synthetics were not made for enviromental reasons...
Last edited by ayrton012; 04-21-2010 at 10:19 AM.
04-21-2010 | 11:22 AM
#37
......well this is not "the truth" actually. Mazda has this oil specially made by Total, to their own formula, and you cannot buy it in the US. Doesn't mean that it's an endorsement by Mazda for ANY synthetic, only for their own design. Anyway, I think you are missing the point because the base oil makes little or no difference to this engine's performance, and especially on this engine where you have no shear surfaces, just a few bearings on the "crankshaft", some scraper rings and of course the fabulous apex seals which don't actually require oil film, but the metal additives that are put into the oil to reduce friction, the oil is just the carrier. The other missed point is that these synthetics are developed for environmental reasons not performance per se.
That's just my view of course, and the main reason I don't use any kind of synthetic, but whaddaIknow in this sea of experts@!
That's just my view of course, and the main reason I don't use any kind of synthetic, but whaddaIknow in this sea of experts@!
Wow. talk about FAILED !
04-21-2010 | 11:27 AM
#39
Can't buy it in the US for various of reason.
One reason is that oil is heavy and it cost a lot to ship them overseas. even by boat.
Rotary Market is small in USA, from a business standpoint, would you risk it ?
The truth is, Synthetic is Synthetic, PAO is PAO, Ester is Ester. There is no "special" Synthetic oil. Mazda is just selling someone else's product with their own name on it.
One reason is that oil is heavy and it cost a lot to ship them overseas. even by boat.
Rotary Market is small in USA, from a business standpoint, would you risk it ?
The truth is, Synthetic is Synthetic, PAO is PAO, Ester is Ester. There is no "special" Synthetic oil. Mazda is just selling someone else's product with their own name on it.
04-22-2010 | 01:16 AM
#40
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
the base oil is not really important, especially if you are going to change it frequently.The main advantage offered by synthetic is that the viscosity holds up longer than mineral oil. It doesn't protect any better, it just lasts longer. (That's the environmental reason.) It's the balance of additives that make the oil what it is, "special" if you like. ..anyway, like I said, don't shoot me, shoot Bob!...
You can only buy the synthetic Renesis in Japan, nothing to do with shipping costs. I've bought other oils from Japan without any "transport cost problems". Maybe you can find another reason, after all Mazda ship their mineral oil over, and I don't think that weighs any less than synthetic!
Here's some advice from Exxon Mobil's synthetic oil myth website: (Of course these guys are a bunch of morons who don't know what they are talking about!)
Using Mobil 1 will void the warranty on my new car.
Reality:
Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 Extended Performance will not void new car warranties, with the exception of the Mazda rotary engine (Mazda does not recommend any synthetic motor oil). Mobil 1 exceeds the API and ILSAC motor oil service requirements for all new vehicles, both import and domestic. If in doubt, always check your vehicle owner's manual or contact your vehicle's manufacturer.
From the Valvoline website:
Are there certain types of vehicles that should not use synthetic motor oil (e.g., Mazda's)?
Yes, there are certain engines (e.g., rotary engines) in which synthetic oils should not be used. Refer to your owner's manual for the appropriate motor oil recommendation.
How does SynPower compare to Mobil1 and Amsoil?
Valvoline's SynPower motor oils meet and exceed the same specifications as these two products.
SynPower motor oils are high performing, high-quality oils formulated with full synthetic base oils and top tier additives to provide an increased level of performance. All of Valvoline's SynPower motor oils are API licensed to ensure quality for North American vehicle application. We have specially designed SynPower 5w40 for application in high performance European or diesel passenger cars and this oil carries the specific OEM approvals such as Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Porsche and BMW. Our North American SynPower 5w20, 5w30 and 10w30 exceed ILSAC GF-4 requirements and carry the API starburst on the front label. SynPower is designed with extra levels of detergent and antioxidant to provide outstanding deposit and heat protection.
Question: If Valvoline meets and exceeds the same specs as Amsoil synthetics....well you can work out the rest.
Really tho', there's a lot of good advice on this thread if you want to street or track race your rx, modify it like a dragster, etc, and get your engine replaced four times below 40k miles!
You can only buy the synthetic Renesis in Japan, nothing to do with shipping costs. I've bought other oils from Japan without any "transport cost problems". Maybe you can find another reason, after all Mazda ship their mineral oil over, and I don't think that weighs any less than synthetic!
Here's some advice from Exxon Mobil's synthetic oil myth website: (Of course these guys are a bunch of morons who don't know what they are talking about!)
Using Mobil 1 will void the warranty on my new car.
Reality:
Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 Extended Performance will not void new car warranties, with the exception of the Mazda rotary engine (Mazda does not recommend any synthetic motor oil). Mobil 1 exceeds the API and ILSAC motor oil service requirements for all new vehicles, both import and domestic. If in doubt, always check your vehicle owner's manual or contact your vehicle's manufacturer.
From the Valvoline website:
Are there certain types of vehicles that should not use synthetic motor oil (e.g., Mazda's)?
Yes, there are certain engines (e.g., rotary engines) in which synthetic oils should not be used. Refer to your owner's manual for the appropriate motor oil recommendation.
How does SynPower compare to Mobil1 and Amsoil?
Valvoline's SynPower motor oils meet and exceed the same specifications as these two products.
SynPower motor oils are high performing, high-quality oils formulated with full synthetic base oils and top tier additives to provide an increased level of performance. All of Valvoline's SynPower motor oils are API licensed to ensure quality for North American vehicle application. We have specially designed SynPower 5w40 for application in high performance European or diesel passenger cars and this oil carries the specific OEM approvals such as Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Porsche and BMW. Our North American SynPower 5w20, 5w30 and 10w30 exceed ILSAC GF-4 requirements and carry the API starburst on the front label. SynPower is designed with extra levels of detergent and antioxidant to provide outstanding deposit and heat protection.
Question: If Valvoline meets and exceeds the same specs as Amsoil synthetics....well you can work out the rest.
Really tho', there's a lot of good advice on this thread if you want to street or track race your rx, modify it like a dragster, etc, and get your engine replaced four times below 40k miles!
Can't buy it in the US for various of reason.
One reason is that oil is heavy and it cost a lot to ship them overseas. even by boat.
Rotary Market is small in USA, from a business standpoint, would you risk it ?
The truth is, Synthetic is Synthetic, PAO is PAO, Ester is Ester. There is no "special" Synthetic oil. Mazda is just selling someone else's product with their own name on it.
One reason is that oil is heavy and it cost a lot to ship them overseas. even by boat.
Rotary Market is small in USA, from a business standpoint, would you risk it ?
The truth is, Synthetic is Synthetic, PAO is PAO, Ester is Ester. There is no "special" Synthetic oil. Mazda is just selling someone else's product with their own name on it.
04-22-2010 | 06:06 AM
#41
Ayrton Senna Forever
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
Likes: 1
From: Europe
If that is the reality, than what is Mazda Synthe-Renesis 0w-30 full synthetic engine oil for their rotary engine?????
04-22-2010 | 06:52 AM
#42
3-wheeler
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,734
Likes: 0
From: Phoenix
Uh, not entirely true but we've got a 50+ page synthetic oil thread that explains why.
04-22-2010 | 08:04 AM
#43
#50
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,521
Likes: 11
From: Caput Mundi
My view on the subject is that, without a Sohn adapter, you can use any oil as long as it burns clean inside of the "chambers".
I use synthetic oils because i often track my car and service it often in terms of driven distance (2500\3000mi) but that translates to an oil change every 6-7 months.
I'd focus more on the viscosity than on the oil type honestly!
I use synthetic oils because i often track my car and service it often in terms of driven distance (2500\3000mi) but that translates to an oil change every 6-7 months.
I'd focus more on the viscosity than on the oil type honestly!
04-22-2010 | 08:52 AM
#44
the base oil is not really important, especially if you are going to change it frequently.The main advantage offered by synthetic is that the viscosity holds up longer than mineral oil. It doesn't protect any better, it just lasts longer. (That's the environmental reason.) It's the balance of additives that make the oil what it is, "special" if you like. ..anyway, like I said, don't shoot me, shoot Bob!...
Synthetic oil are superior in every way. unlike Conventional oil, which required a lot of modifiers to create its viscosity rating. Synthetic don't need to. and these modifiers wears out with age, FAST. Again, synthetic would last longer to protect better.
Synthetic flows way better than Conventional oil, so it gets to parts quicker to protect better.
you can say its the balance of additives that makes the oil what it is, but there are things that can't be done without the use of Synthetic based stock. if everything is the same, why would we still need Synthetic ?
but does the extra cost worth it ? it depends on the user.
Same idea as buying/having Organic food. dude I mean its the same plant, they grow the plants with different material thats all. people won't die from having conventional food.
You can only buy the synthetic Renesis in Japan, nothing to do with shipping costs. I've bought other oils from Japan without any "transport cost problems". Maybe you can find another reason, after all Mazda ship their mineral oil over, and I don't think that weighs any less than synthetic!
plus, You dont really understand marketing do you? when the box art saids "Synthe Renesis", who can you sell the oil too? Let me guess, RX-8 Owners!!!!
Lets see, there are about 40K RX-8 in North America. 50 states, lets divide them ! so lets just say each state gets about 800 RX-8. Do you know how "tiny" this market would be? Is it worth it to transport all these "high priced" products over that probably going to cost like 60 bux for 4 L bottle that NO ONE buys (or hardly)
not to mention most of the time when people do oil change at dealership they will go for the "oil change special" deal. which means it will be the cheapest oil dealership can find off the shelf. usually MotorCraft (Ford) engine oil.
Mazda is not stupid, if there are 400K Rx-8 in the US then they might ship those oil over.
Here's some advice from Exxon Mobil's synthetic oil myth website: (Of course these guys are a bunch of morons who don't know what they are talking about!)
Using Mobil 1 will void the warranty on my new car.
Reality:
Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 Extended Performance will not void new car warranties, with the exception of the Mazda rotary engine (Mazda does not recommend any synthetic motor oil). Mobil 1 exceeds the API and ILSAC motor oil service requirements for all new vehicles, both import and domestic. If in doubt, always check your vehicle owner's manual or contact your vehicle's manufacturer.
From the Valvoline website:
Are there certain types of vehicles that should not use synthetic motor oil (e.g., Mazda's)?
Yes, there are certain engines (e.g., rotary engines) in which synthetic oils should not be used. Refer to your owner's manual for the appropriate motor oil recommendation.
How does SynPower compare to Mobil1 and Amsoil?
Valvoline's SynPower motor oils meet and exceed the same specifications as these two products.
SynPower motor oils are high performing, high-quality oils formulated with full synthetic base oils and top tier additives to provide an increased level of performance. All of Valvoline's SynPower motor oils are API licensed to ensure quality for North American vehicle application. We have specially designed SynPower 5w40 for application in high performance European or diesel passenger cars and this oil carries the specific OEM approvals such as Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Porsche and BMW. Our North American SynPower 5w20, 5w30 and 10w30 exceed ILSAC GF-4 requirements and carry the API starburst on the front label. SynPower is designed with extra levels of detergent and antioxidant to provide outstanding deposit and heat protection.
Question: If Valvoline meets and exceeds the same specs as Amsoil synthetics....well you can work out the rest.
Using Mobil 1 will void the warranty on my new car.
Reality:
Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 Extended Performance will not void new car warranties, with the exception of the Mazda rotary engine (Mazda does not recommend any synthetic motor oil). Mobil 1 exceeds the API and ILSAC motor oil service requirements for all new vehicles, both import and domestic. If in doubt, always check your vehicle owner's manual or contact your vehicle's manufacturer.
From the Valvoline website:
Are there certain types of vehicles that should not use synthetic motor oil (e.g., Mazda's)?
Yes, there are certain engines (e.g., rotary engines) in which synthetic oils should not be used. Refer to your owner's manual for the appropriate motor oil recommendation.
How does SynPower compare to Mobil1 and Amsoil?
Valvoline's SynPower motor oils meet and exceed the same specifications as these two products.
SynPower motor oils are high performing, high-quality oils formulated with full synthetic base oils and top tier additives to provide an increased level of performance. All of Valvoline's SynPower motor oils are API licensed to ensure quality for North American vehicle application. We have specially designed SynPower 5w40 for application in high performance European or diesel passenger cars and this oil carries the specific OEM approvals such as Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Porsche and BMW. Our North American SynPower 5w20, 5w30 and 10w30 exceed ILSAC GF-4 requirements and carry the API starburst on the front label. SynPower is designed with extra levels of detergent and antioxidant to provide outstanding deposit and heat protection.
Question: If Valvoline meets and exceeds the same specs as Amsoil synthetics....well you can work out the rest.
In a country where anybody can sue, even when its something really stupid. If Im Mobil/Exxon, ****, I will do the same and say No.
http://www.royalpurple.com/faqs-rotary.html
If you really follow Mazda's recommendation. then there should be no modification, cuz Mazda saids it might effect the car's performance! Oh yea, please remember to bring your car to a Mazda dealer everytime something is wrong. do NOT go to your local garage, cuz thats what Mazda recommends too !
Mazda does NOT recommend Synthetic oil in their DVD cuz they said they dunno the long term effects blah blah blah. I guess those OLD Mobil1 back then that ate their "CHEAP ***" oil seals really hurt Mazda a lot. Hmm, not to mention, my Manual never said anything about Synthetic !
Really tho', there's a lot of good advice on this thread if you want to street or track race your rx, modify it like a dragster, etc, and get your engine replaced four times below 40k miles!
This engine's quality depends heavily on the builder + the part they use on the assembly line. This is probably the reason why there are engine out the went south around the corner, while the other dude's engine last forever without much attention.
Last edited by nycgps; 04-22-2010 at 08:59 AM.
04-22-2010 | 11:26 AM
#46
#50
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,521
Likes: 11
From: Caput Mundi
Side seal clearances are all over the way for what I had the chance to see. Not only way out of spec but they vary a lot from rotor face to rotor face so yep, i'm with you!
Then there's the burning oil issue... there are some oils that burn and mix ok with fuel and others that don't. Since testing is out of our economical capabilities i'll just stick to what i know that works, be it mineral or synthetic. In my case i use a couple of different synthetic oils but i earlier said why
Diesel oil is cool too, in any form
Then there's the burning oil issue... there are some oils that burn and mix ok with fuel and others that don't. Since testing is out of our economical capabilities i'll just stick to what i know that works, be it mineral or synthetic. In my case i use a couple of different synthetic oils but i earlier said why
Diesel oil is cool too, in any form
04-22-2010 | 11:53 AM
#48
#50
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,521
Likes: 11
From: Caput Mundi
The mobil1 is one of the oils that i wouldn't use without an OMP adapter and that's what I like about that tool
Add that I am a lazy bastard though i just use a good oil for our purpose... mostly because even with an adapter i'd still premix which is something you don't do, right?
Add that I am a lazy bastard though i just use a good oil for our purpose... mostly because even with an adapter i'd still premix which is something you don't do, right?